|
Figured I would post my build to see if I can get some constructive feedback to improve this character concept.
There's a few things that are mandatory with this build -
1) Flurry of Blows. Using Naginata for reach and later on combining Pressure Points to deal ability damage with SA flurries.
2) At least 2 levels of Ninja - Monks usually don't have great AC and I'd like to use Drunken Master's Ki pool to have infinite uses of 'Shadow Clone' to up my survivability.
Class –Drunken Master Qinggong Monk 8, Ninja 2, Crusader Cleric 1
Race - Human
Traits -
* Reactionary: +2 initiative
* Fate's Favored: +1 to any existing luck bonuses
Deity - Fumeiyoshi
Domain – Tactics – 5/day roll initiative twice
Stats -
Str: 19
Dex: 14
Con: 14
Int: 7
Wis: 14
Cha: 7
1) Monk 1: Bab +0, Improved Initiative (lvl 1), Focused Study (Human), Combat Reflexes (Monk), +1hp
2) Monk 2: Bab +1, Deflect Arrows (Monk), +1hp
3) Crusader 1: Bab +1, Crusader’s Flurry (lvl 3), Weapon Focus: Naginata (Cleric)
4) Monk 3: Bab +2, +1 Str, +1hp
5) Monk 4: Bab +3, Toughness (5), +1hp
6) Ninja 1: Bab +3
7) Ninja 2: Bab +4, Extra Ninja Trick: Pressure Points (lvl 7), Shadow Clone (ninja)
8) Monk 5: Bab +4, +1 Str, +1hp
9) Monk 6: Bab +5, Extra Ninja Trick: Forgotten Tricks(lvl 9), Dodge (Monk), +1hp
10) Monk 7: Bab +6/+1, +1hp
11) Monk 8: Bab +7/+2, Lunge (lvl 11), +1hp
Focused Study - level 1 Perception, level 8 Stealth
|
Please tell us what you want to accomplish with this character. Do you want to make the character mechanically stronger, or fit a particular concept, or what. Please tell us a bit more about your objective. That will give us more guidance about what you are looking for, and what sort of response would be helpful.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Flurry of Pressure Points. I know there's some defensive builds aka Crane and Snake style that help keep Monks alive but 90% of the time Monks have a harder time staying alive in the frontline compared to a d10 or d12 HD class wearing armor.
Drunken Master gives a drunken ki pool that can be refilled all the time and the Ninja's Shadow Clone gives a ton of survivability. I figured I would use Crusader's Flurry to use reach & Combat Reflexes to get multiple AoO's in, 5ft back, flurry at reach, then swift action "stagger 5ft back" to force them to provoke again and be out of full attack range.
I currently have a lvl 7 drunken master monk but she's died 4 times so far in PFS due to some rough situations. Players are random at tables and with mage armor she's only looking at 21 AC. Her flurry attack is +12/+12/+7 with 1d8+12 first attack and 1d8+9 for rest with 73hp but she gets her butt handed because she's 5ft unarmed strike based with 21AC (with mage armor).
My above build is more of a "remake" of her with Qinggong archetype added (I didn't have Ultimate Magic back then so that's why she doesn't have it.) and I've realized that 5ft range gets monks in trouble a LOT.
So this build is designed to be in reach melee while having really great survivability (bark skin, mage armor, shadow clone, and flurry reach with 10ft step).
Let me know if I'm missing anything but I think that pretty much explains what I'm trying to go for here. A v2 of my current monk but making what I see as corrections to the big problems I've experienced with my lvl 7 monk in PFS.
I don't want to critique it, I like it!
Good choice on the high str, love the naginata, great choice to give your monk a reach weapon emphasis (seen that done before, and if you ever need to get closer, well you are a monk).
So I like the build, I reckon best to be paired with a bard (as you need skills, charisma and int in the party), for some extra to hit.
Could you please share with us the char backstory?
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I don't want to critique it, I like it!
Good choice on the high str, love the naginata, great choice to give your monk a reach weapon emphasis (seen that done before, and if you ever need to get closer, well you are a monk).
So I like the build, I reckon best to be paired with a bard (as you need skills, charisma and int in the party), for some extra to hit.
Could you please share with us the char backstory?
This character will be tied with my currently level 2 Far Strike monk, that's a worshiper of Shizuru, and a friend's Cavaliar that's a worshiper of Shizuru also, all Tien. This character was once a follower of Shizuru with them and close friends but eventually became "corrupted" with envy for power and joins the followers of Fumeiyoshi, and soon after becomes so devout that he joins the clergy as a Crusader of Fumeiyoshi. His path leads down a dark road as he resorts to the dark arts of ninjitsu also with deadly and crippling pressure point attacks and shadow cloning himself to best his opponents. He cares very little of true honor anymore as his greed and envy has corrupted him to take any advantages (stealth, sneak attack, etc) to destroy those that get in his way.
All in all, a dark character that's linked to one of my other character's and my friend's character's past. I'm sure there will be a time when I play him with my friend's character and I plan to make it awkward (as I'm sure he'll be more than happy to go with the whole backstory but I'll definitely check with him first).
|
|
*bump* Atm, I'm taking it my character is quite optimal compared to most builds and that my feat choices and etc are top tier as it seems no one has really made any suggestions yet. I know the BAB takes somewhat of a hit being split between three 3/4 BAB classes but with Fate's Favored + Divine Favor and Weapon Focus I'm hoping that somewhat helps. Some sacrifices must be made to help mitigate the Monk's typical weakness of low AC / low HP frontliner and the reach + double 5ft option also helps keep this character from having to stay in the frontlines with the real frontliners. We all know that a monk is only as good as their Flurry of Blows (unless they opt for an archetype that swaps it for something else great) so staying in FoB range is important.
|
I honestly think your STR is too high, I would drop it down a bit to raise wisdom to 16.
Also, if you want to use a reach weapon, I would think long and hard about dropping that cleric dip. A Sohei can flurry with polearms at 6, or you could just use one of the monk reach weapons like a kurasigama that you have proficiency in from the ninja level.
|
|
Sohei also fixes your AC problem up a bit since it can actually wear armor and flurry.
Of course, if you go Cleric you may as well go Sacred fist... you can just dip 3 levels in Drunken Master of Many styles or something and end up virtualy the same.
Unfortunately, I'm not sure how many GM's at my local area would be willing to allow a Sohei to wear armor knowing that the person that designed the Sohei gave the Monk proficiency with Light Armor as an option but that they never intended for the Monk to retain his +Wis AC and Flurry of Blows while wearing said armor. I'd rather not attempt that and get into countless arguments at my local PFS area.
Sacred Fist is a Warpriest archetype, you gain blessings instead of domains and I'd argue that Tactics domain is better than any of the Blessings available. 3 levels of Drunken Master of Many Styles + Sacred Fist doesn't get me Pressure Points for ability damage, Shadow Clone mirror images, or the extra 8 skill points from a 2 level dip. Sacred Fist will net me 2 total skill points a level, which hardly lets me have anything skill point wise.
Sacred Fist is decent but you don't get access to Qinggong archetype which has some great benefits. 3 levels of Drunken Master gives you a Drunken Ki Pool of 1 which you'd run through in the 1st round, the key is having 2-4 drunken ki points an encounter so you can spend them and replenish after the fight without dipping much into your regular ki pool unless you're "nova'ing."
---------------------
@Imbicatus
The high strength is to counter me 2 dips into 3/4 BAB classes though. Power Attack is also a horrible option as it hurts the Monk's Flurry, this character's Sneak Attack bonus dmg, and Pressure Points landing. The higher my +atk is the more often sneak attack lands (nothing great but free dmg) and also means Pressure Points lands more often.
I also feel compelled to keep Str high since I will be forgoing Power Attack. My current level 7 Monk does 1d8+12dmg first attack, and 1d8+9dmg on rest of attacks without Power Attack. Usually I miss 60% of the time already with +12/+12/+7 bonuses, I'd hate to see how much I'd miss while Power Attacking.
Kusarigama does 1d6 x2. I slow my Monk progression 1 level but I make up the BAB difference with the free Weapon Focus feat from Crusader. I get the Tactics domain to take the highest on 2d20's. I gain access to Cleric scrolls/wands and can cast Fate's Favored for +2atk/+2dmg in combat.
I feel the Naginata's 1d8 x4 could be pretty deadly as a +1 keen weapon since I can AoO up to 3 times a round and then flurry for 3-4 attacks. That's a lot of chances for a 19-20 x4 crit to happen, dealing a lot more damage than the Kusarigama.
Be carefull with having your BAB be that low
|
|
If it's for PFS, the FAQ is law. A Sohei can flurry in light armor.
Well, I do see the FAQ on Sohei now but it says you don't get your Wis bonus to AC. The other big issue is taking Sohei denies you from taking Drunken Master so no 2x 5ft step (Drunken Master has a swift action 5ft step) and no infinite ki. If dipping in Ninja I have access to free mirror image and forgotten tricks but if I'm dumping Wis (because Wis bonus doesn't get added to AC) and no drunken ki pool then my Ki pool is extremely limited. I know Sohei gets to flurry with a weapon group but the big benefit of Sohei are the bonus feats allowing you to get Mounted Combat feats that only levels 9-12'ish characters would be able to access.
I still think the Tactics domain, infinite ki pool, and the ability to 5ft step back from someone that bases me, flurry, and then swift action 5ft step back again to avoid eating a full attack and causing them to have to provoke another AoO is far more powerful than an extra level of Monk and a Sohei's "Devoted Guardian" ability.
I'm also flurrying with a reach weapon at 3rd level compared to Sohei's 6th level which is already halfway into the character's PFS career.
|
Your BAB is way too low. The single biggest issue that any Rogue or Ninja has is their sucky BAB: you have to hit to do damage. Your BAB is three times worse.
Here's your attack bonuses at level 9, assuming a +2 STR belt and a +2 weapon:
Base Flurry: +4/+4/+1 Bonuses to attack: +1BAB(Ninja)+6STR+1WF+2Magic = +14/+14/+9 for 1d8+11 (that's +9STR+2Magic), plus 1d6 when you can get sneak damage. That's almost the same as your current monk build, which you say misses 60% of the time. That is not going to be fun to play.
I'm not sure what it is that you like about Pressure Point, but whatever it is, it isn't worth spoiling your BAB. Ditto for the Cleric level: you seem to have fooled yourself into thinking that cleric level adds value. If it does, it is definitely not adding to your ability to succeed in melee.
The reason that people aren't responding with suggestions is because the parameters that you have set for yourself force you into taking three 3/4 classes, which frankly sucks. You aren't leaving us any room to help you.
I've had characters with less hit points and MUCH lower armor class survive in PFS to high levels. The key? High attack and high damage: kill stuff before it can kill you. You seem to be shooting for average AC and meh damage: that is not a recipe for success.
If you really want help, tell us what you are really tied to, and what is less important to you - and we will try to help.
|
|
Just for comparison, let's look at a very simple (perhaps boring) reach fighter build at level 9. 18 Str, 14 CON and DEX. All stat bumps to STR. +2 STR belt, +1 Weapon, Gloves of Dueling.
1) XWP: Fauchard; WF: Fauchard
2) Power Attack
3) Iron Will
4) Weapon Specialization: Fauchard
5) Improved Iron Will (Weapon Training +1)
6) Some other feat
7) Great Fortitude
8) Improved Critical
9) Greater Weapon Focus (Weapon Training +2)
Attack w/ the +1 Fauchard:
+9BAB+6STR+2WeaponFocus+4WT+1Magic = +22/+17 for 1d10+16 (15-20)x2
With Power Attack: +19/+14 for 1d10+25 (15-20)x2
(Damage: +9STR+2WS+4WT+1Magic = +16)
|
|
Base Flurry: +4/+4/+1 Bonuses to attack: +1BAB(Ninja)+6STR+1WF+2Magic = +14/+14/+9 for 1d8+11 (that's +9STR+2Magic), plus 1d6 when you can get sneak damage. That's almost the same as your current monk build, which you say misses 60% of the time. That is not going to be fun to play.
I'm not sure what it is that you like about Pressure Point, but whatever it is, it isn't worth spoiling your BAB. Ditto for the Cleric level: you seem to have fooled yourself into thinking that cleric level adds value. If it does, it is definitely not adding to your ability to succeed in melee.
You missed Divine Favor with Fate's Favored trait, that's an extra +2atk and +2dmg. Monks don't require armor and their general equipment costs are lower than say a fighter so a +3 weapon is quite reasonable. So more realistically we would be looking at a +17/+17/+12 with the option to spend 1 ki for an additional 4th attack at +17.
Pressure Points is not the "reason" why I want to take 2 levels of Ninja. I just don't see a reason why not to take it if I am going Ninja. The main 95% reason why I want to take Ninja is Shadow Clone, being able to "cast" Mirror Image all day, every day should increase my chances of avoiding a LOT of damage. Being a Drunken Master means I will always have ki points.
If you want me to broaden my build a little. I'm looking for the following -
1) Flurry of Blows
2) Reach Weapon
3) Ways of avoiding damage (most defensive Style Feats require 1-2 hands free. I would like some options other than Style Feats.)
4) Preferably having more than 2-3 skill points per level. Not mandatory but going 11 levels with 2 or 3 skill points a level really hinders options on what skills you can max or have mediocre success in.
If anyone is able to come up with some kind of build that incorporates the 4 above key points I'd LOVE to hear it as that's essentially what I'm trying to achieve.
|
|
So far the only thing that's really caught my attention (and I do appreciate everyone's comments/suggestions) is instead going full Sacred Fist Warpriest. Ki Leech is a great and valid option; I won't have the Drunken Master's swift action 5ft move though but that's ok. Going Warpriest I would be full caster level which will help boost Divine Favor's bonuses.
Any suggestions on Blessings? Since Warpriests don't have domains. I'm still considering Crusader's Flurry and a Naginata (deity Fumeiyoshi). Feat suggestions for Warpriest are welcome also.
|
|
Have you considered the weapon adept route? For that matter what's your thoughts on channel smite and guided hand? Weapon adept would eliminate the need of crusader archetype and open up all the other clerics for example, heck even a cloistered would be of some use thx to ninja skill per level, though I don't advocate that. Guided hand basically eliminates the need for any strength at all beyond a 13 a d even that is questionable. Perfect strike is nothing to sneeze at notr is weapon spec. Wisdom being higher than norm means AC and such is high and etc. if you can't think a good second domain then just dump charisma and go conversion inquisition to be a great mouthpiece :)
Or heck, grab wisdom in the flesh trait for stealth and your a scout.
Weapon Adept doesn't grant Channel Energy ability. Can't qualify for Crusader's Flurry with that and the only natural flurry reach weapon available would be a Kasurigama (Kyoketsu shoge and Double-chained Kama both would require a feat for proficiency and neither are any better.)
Inquisitions can only be taken by Inquisitors. I feel Guided Hand is nothing more than a trap. I'm wanting to use a 2handed weapon which means 1.5x str to damage instead of 1.0x. Lowering Str from a 19 to a 13 would drop me from a +6dmg to +1dmg that almost forces me to Power Attack to do real damage and then I'm taking a -atk penalty. It also costs 2 feats.
Perfect Strike is nice but I really don't want to sway away from a reach flurry build character (Since PS only works with Quarterstaff, Nunchaku, Sai, Kama, or Siangham.)
|
|
Just two days ago I posted my idea for a monk build with reach.
So far it has not gained any attention, but maybe you find something interesting there: Hungry Ghost Monk crit / reach build
Appreciate your suggestion. I did a similar theorycraft with 1 level dip into Crusader Cleric at 3rd level and rest all Hungry Ghost/Qinggong Monk with the Deity Shizuru to flurry of blows with a +1 Keen Katana (crit: 15-20 x2). I'm don't want to shun away from the reach build though. I glanced at your post though and I'll add some comments to it later. :)
|
|
Weapon Adept doesn't grant Channel Energy ability. Can't qualify for Crusader's Flurry with that and the only natural flurry reach weapon available would be a Kasurigama (Kyoketsu shoge and Double-chained Kama both would require a feat for proficiency and neither are any better.)1 level od unarmed fighter (fighter archetype) gets all monk weapon profiencies + 1 Style feat for free. Also you have BAB 1 at first level and can take PA and WF with your 1st lvl feats.
Inquisitions can only be taken by Inquisitors."While a cleric or other domain-using class can select an inquisition in place of a domain (if appropriate to the character’s deity), inquisitions do not grant domain spell slots or domain spells, and therefore are much weaker choices for those classes."
Because you dont care about spells, inquisitions can be very good for a for a 1 lvl dip
Regardless, if I had the option between an Inquisition and a Domain I'd take the Tactics domain every time. 2d20 take the highest for initiative is just too powerful.
Also, being proficient in all monk weapons doesn't help much. I get access to the 3 reach monk weapons: Kasurigama, Kyoketsu shoge, and Double-chained Kama. All of which are low damage, regular x2 crit, and low crit chance.
I'd rather get access to Crusader's Flurry and use a Ranseur (2d4 crit:x3), Glaive (1d10 x3), or a Naginata (1d8 x4). Those three all would deal a great more over my career than a 1d6 x2 monk reach weapon.
-------------
I honestly think the Sacred Fist Warpriest suggestion has been the closest one to staying in-line with my goals and having the potential to deal good damage and have decent protection. Would like some suggestions on Blessings and feats for a straight Sacred Fist build.
|
|
You missed Divine Favor with Fate's Favored trait, that's an extra +2atk and +2dmg.
I never consider standard actions to buff when looking at the attack potential of a melee build: using a standard action to give yourself a +2 to attack and damage just isn't efficient in most circumstances.
The build below offers some of the reach and skill options (LW give 4 skills per level, plus the build requires a modest investment in INT). The MoMs levels could be subbed for regular monk levels (to grab Flurry), or you could stick with MoMs and add more defensive Styles, but I would encourage you to not worry about defense so much: the damage potential of a build that combines Fighter attack bonuses with Tiger Pounce is pretty extreme. Yes, he has really crappy AC, but the build has worked very well up to 11th level in PFS, although I will admit that I have rarely played the character at high levels without a solid healer at the table. It doesn't happen often, but he has been caught a few times where he's taken an awful lot of damage in a single round, due to getting swarmed by heavy hitters.
Lore Warden 8 / Master of Many Styles 2 / Living Monolith 1
1) LW1 - EWP: Fauchard (Half-Elf), Weapon Focus, Combat Reflexes
2) LW2 - Combat Expertise (LW bonus), Improved Trip
3) MoMS1 Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist, Fuse Styles, Dragon Style, Tiger Style
4) LW3 - +2 to CMB/CMD
5) LW4 - Iron Will; Power Attack
6) MoMS2 - Tiger Pounce; Evasion
7) LW5 - Endurance; Weapon Training: Polearms (+1/+1)
8) LW6 - Greater Trip
9) Living Monolith 1 - Ka Stone; Toughness; Improved Critical
10) LW7 - +4/+4 CMB/CMD
11) LW8 Greater Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization
|
|
The build below offers some of the reach and skill options (LW give 4 skills per level, plus the build requires a modest investment in INT). The MoMs levels could be subbed for regular monk levels (to grab Flurry), or you could stick with MoMs and add more defensive Styles, but I would encourage you to not worry about defense so much: the damage potential of a build that combines Fighter attack bonuses with Tiger Pounce is pretty extreme. Yes, he has really crappy AC, but the build has worked very well up to 11th level in PFS, although I will admit that I have rarely played the character at high levels without a solid healer at the table. It doesn't happen often, but he has been caught a few times where he's taken an awful lot of damage in a single round, due to getting swarmed by heavy hitters.
To be honest Clerics/Healers are a bit rare in my local area. We have quite a few barbarians, rogues, rangers, and arcane casters. Healing is generally lacking which is why I'm worried. My level 7 Monk has 73hp and she's been killed 4 times over her career (3 from enemies and 1 that was almost unavoidable from a scenario.) I'd like to incorporate some defensive staying power because having a healbot behind me is often quite rare at my local area (most all healing is done via CLW wands AFTER combat).
I'm somewhat interested in a Sacred Fist Warpriest build if anyone has some ideas/suggestions.
|
|
Besides too many 3/4 BAB classes - the main critique I'd give is that it's too MAD.
If you're worried about defense (Unlike many on these boards and in PFS - I like my AC/saves to be high - my PFS bard is always the highest AC in the party.) I'd dump the strength and get an agile weapon ASAP. Though of course - then you can't be a reach monk. Frankly - monks aren't very good at reach, because their improved BAB for flurry doesn't apply to AOOs.
I'd also point out that your stats listed are what they'd be at level 1 - not level 11. (2 stat-ups)
You might consider going Brawler instead. They come with proficiency with the longspear - are less MAD - and it's not too hard to make a solid reach/tripper with them for very good battlefield control. Primarily use unarmed for the damage - and carry a masterwork longspear for AOOs/reach tripping.
|
|
My level 7 Monk has 73hp and she's been killed 4 times over her career (3 from enemies and 1 that was almost unavoidable from a scenario.) I'd like to incorporate some defensive staying power because having a healbot behind me is often quite rare at my local area (most all healing is done via CLW wands AFTER combat).
I would argue that offense is the best defense: killing things quicker means you have to defend yourself for less time.
If it's for PFS, the FAQ is law. A Sohei can flurry in light armor.Well, I do see the FAQ on Sohei now but it says you don't get your Wis bonus to AC. The other big issue is taking Sohei denies you from taking Drunken Master so no 2x 5ft step (Drunken Master has a swift action 5ft step) and no infinite ki. If dipping in Ninja I have access to free mirror image and forgotten tricks but if I'm dumping Wis (because Wis bonus doesn't get added to AC) and no drunken ki pool then my Ki pool is extremely limited. I know Sohei gets to flurry with a weapon group but the big benefit of Sohei are the bonus feats allowing you to get Mounted Combat feats that only levels 9-12'ish characters would be able to access.
I still think the Tactics domain, infinite ki pool, and the ability to 5ft step back from someone that bases me, flurry, and then swift action 5ft step back again to avoid eating a full attack and causing them to have to provoke another AoO is far more powerful than an extra level of Monk and a Sohei's "Devoted Guardian" ability.
I'm also flurrying with a reach weapon at 3rd level compared to Sohei's 6th level which is already halfway into the character's PFS career.
The loss of AC bonus takes a VERY long time and a lot of expensive equipment (wis headband, dex belt, AC bracers, plus the class' scaling AC bonus) to notices (particularly if you grab a mithral breastplate, which appears to count as light for this kind of stuff). Until that point, you get better AC from armor when you have that kind of WIS. So at most, you see maybe an AC or two advantage towards the end of your career (plus touch AC, admittedly)
For me, the big bonus of sohei is the weapon training, which gives 1-3 bonus to attack and damage, and it qualifies you for gloves of dueling for another +2 on top of that (and if this was an unarmed build, the fact it can get light armor means it could also grab brawling armor). Sohei are much more about high offense and early survivability.
Also, I always question whether you would even want to flurry before level 6. Early on, the penalty from the fake TWF is rather noticeable, and honestly, the fact that almost no one else even HAS full attacks at those levels means that many enemies will not stick around to get smacked. Waiting until you get enough fake full BAB and the bonus with weapon training to back your flurry up is not that bad an idea. Just running around with a hefty 2 handed weapon early on is usually enough advantage (all the more so since it is reach, which means an extra hit)
I will admit that drunken master has the advantage of the double 5' steps and easy ki recovery early on (anyone with qinggong can grab the ki leech SLA, but that is a mid level thing, and doesn't really matter much for PFS since it comes so late). But sohei is also much more valuable than mere mounted feats.
|
|
Also, I always question whether you would even want to flurry before level 6. Early on, the penalty from the fake TWF is rather noticeable, and honestly, the fact that almost no one else even HAS full attacks at those levels means that many enemies will not stick around to get smacked. Just running around with a hefty 2 handed weapon early on is usually enough advantage.
On my martial artist, I flurry every time I possibly can. At level one, you are at a -2 penalty when flurrying. At level 2-4, you are at a -1 penalty when flurrying. At 5 there is no penalty, and it becomes better from there.
At low level, the ACs are low enough that the extra chance to hit more than makes up for the slight to hit penalty.
I remember once at 3rd level I was fighting a mob of goblins, I initiated a flurry full attack, killed one on the first hit, took a 5 ft step, and then killed a second one.
|
|
Good point on the longspear: for some reason I had it stuck in my head that it was a martial weapon.
Imicatus: Flurry always acts like TWF, so you are always eating those penalties when you flurry. To your point, since Flurry uses full BAB, where a monk that doesn't flurry suffers from his 3/4 BAB, they should always flurry when they can, but your attack is certainly being penalized for the TWF.
While it may not be build specific advice I highly recommend the Drinking Horn of Bottomless Valor.
|
|
Anyone want to take a stab at some Sacred Fist Warpriest suggestions or have any experience with the archetype? Not sure if my posts are displaying in white text or getting ignored but I've mentioned that I'd be interested in hearing more on a Sacred Fist build with a reach weapon (deity favored weapon).
|
|
Since no one suggested a Sacred Fist build I decided to do some number crunching to see if it's worth it.
Assuming the character is Human, +2racial is in Str, and equipped with a +2 Naginata I came up with the following -
When Nova'ing with "Divine Power" spell, "War Mind" blessing, and spending 1 ki point for an extra attack he's looking at:
Not Power Attacking To-Hit: +23/+23/+23/+23/+18/+18/+13 (7 attacks) at 11th level.
Damage: 1d8+15 per hit
Power Attack To-Hit: +19/+19/+19/+19/+14/+14/+9
Damage: 1d8+27 per hit
AoO To-Hit: +22
Feats: 1 bonus style feat and 7 regular feats = A little cramped compared to the Monk's 12 total feats. Can't get Crusader's Flurry till 5th level since I can't take Weapon Focus: Naginata until 3rd level. Seems Sacred Fist loses proficiency with their deities favored weapon and with 0 BAB at 1st level I can't take Weapon Focus yet.
Blessings: Liberation and War seem about the best.
Spells: access to 1st - 4th level. I have Fervor 7/day to heal myself 4d6+8 (Fey Foundling adds the +8).
Special Abilities: Fervor, Channel Energy, Blessings, Miraculous Fortitude, 1 bonus Style Feat.
Con: Sacred Fist does lose quite a bit of the War Priest's abilities.
-------------------------------------
I lose quite a bit of the Monk's fun abilities but if all attacks connect then we're looking at an average of 220dmg in 1 round. Now the
Anything I miss?
EDIT: Looks like I overlooked the Blessings section. I could either go with Neshen for the Ranseur (2d4 x3) and get the Liberation blessing and pickup another blessing (not sure which one to take) or go with Fumeiyoshi for the Naginata (1d8 x4) and get the War domain and another random blessing (not sure which one to take on this one either).
Looks like if I go with Fumeiyoshi then I can't use Fervor or Channel Energy to heal myself. Thinking Neshen is probably what I'll have to take (unfortunately drops me down from a x4crit to a x3 crit).
If anyone spots anything else off let me know.
|
|
To be honest Clerics/Healers are a bit rare in my local area. We have quite a few barbarians, rogues, rangers, and arcane casters. Healing is generally lacking which is why I'm worried ...
Sounds like someone in your local area should play a reach cleric or oracle. All the offensive power of a Barbarian or Ranger, and all the support and healing of a full divine caster. Don't play as a healbot, of course!
I must take exception to the OPs disdain for standard action buffs. While they are usually not practical once combat has already begun, it's often possible to get them off just before combat begins. I play several characters who rely on Standard Action buffs. These characters very rarely waste a Standard Action in combat to cast them, but still usually manage to have them up. This with many different GMs.
An obvious example is Magda Luckbender, an 11th level reach cleric of Shelyn. With no buffs up her combat numbers stink on ice for an 11th level front line fighter: +11/+6 for 1D10+14 HP. Thing is, when the big fights actually happen the numbers are generally +23/+23/+18 for 2D8+1D6+30 HP. Yet she never wastes a Standard Action on self-buffing. If you only consider numbers calculated without buffs you are guaranteed to drastically underestimate this approach, leading to the erroneous conclusion that, for example, a monk can fight better than a cleric. An unbuffed monk will beat an unbuffed cleric, but a fully buffed cleric will crush a fully buffed monk. Similarly, the standard DPR calculation ignore AoOs, for various good reasons, which has the effect of undervaluing characters who fish for AoOs. For a build like Magda, actual combat damage is about five times larger than what DPR theory says it should be. This because of buffs (ignored in DPR calculations) and AoOs (also ignored in DPR calculations).
A more accurate model is to calculate a high end, a low end, then guess at the probability distribution. If more people used that approach you might have more clerics and oracles in your area :-)
|
|
To be honest Clerics/Healers are a bit rare in my local area. We have quite a few barbarians, rogues, rangers, and arcane casters. Healing is generally lacking which is why I'm worried ...Sounds like someone in your local area should play a reach cleric or oracle. All the offensive power of a Barbarian or Ranger, and all the support and healing of a full divine caster. Don't play as a healbot, of course!
I must take exception to the OPs disdain for standard action buffs. While they are usually not practical once combat has already begun, it's often possible to get them off just before combat begins. I play several characters who rely on Standard Action buffs. These characters very rarely waste a Standard Action in combat to cast them, but still usually manage to have them up. This with many different GMs.
An obvious example is Magda Luckbender, an 11th level reach cleric of Shelyn. With no buffs up her combat numbers stink on ice for an 11th level front line fighter: +11/+6 for 1D10+14 HP. Thing is, when the big fights actually happen the numbers are generally +23/+23/+18 for 2D8+1D6+30 HP. Yet she never wastes a Standard Action on self-buffing. If you only consider numbers calculated without buffs you are guaranteed to drastically underestimate this approach, leading to the erroneous conclusion that, for example, a monk can fight better than a cleric. An unbuffed monk will beat an unbuffed cleric, but a fully buffed cleric will crush a fully buffed monk. Similarly, the standard DPR calculation ignore AoOs, for various good reasons, which has the effect of undervaluing characters who fish for AoOs. For a build like Magda, actual combat damage is about five times larger than what DPR theory says it should be. This because of buffs (ignored in DPR calculations) and AoOs (also ignored in DPR calculations).
A more accurate model is to calculate a high end, a low end, then guess at the probability distribution....
Never said I wasn't going to buff or that I didn't want to buff during combat. 1 or 2 other people weren't fond of the idea but I expect to cast Divine Power during each combat if possible.
Looks like your Evangelist Cleric has the same +atk as my Sacred Fist. My calculations were with Divine Power added. I would have factored more buffs in but I thought I'd just be on the conservative side and assume any additional buffs as extra icing.
With the Sacred Fist I'm still Combat Reflexes fishing for AoO's and when I'm Nova Flurrying I'm attacking 4 more times than Magda. The few parts that your build has over mine is higher level spells (and access to them earlier), Inspire songs for AoE ally buffing, and choice of Domains. I'll give you those for sure.
I know at 11th level Magda gets +3atk/dmg from Inspire Courage and +4atk/dmg from Divine Power (with Fate's Favored). Where is the other damage coming from so I can understand what buffs/benefits she's using. Doing 1d8+27 is only counting Power Attack and Divine Power for the Sacred Fist.
Warpriest does have the weak Fervor ability to swift heal yourself and the ability that protects against Fort saves that have reduced effects on fails.
I must say the Evangelist Cleric has more versatility but comparing damage output the Sacred Fist should match the Evangelist Cleric in AoO's and greatly surpass in damage with Flurry of Blows.
I'll take it into consideration, but I'm fully aware of Magda's build as you've suggested it a few times on previous builds I've came up with.
Sidenote: Reach Oracles suck. I played one till level 4 and I ended up spending a ton of Prestige just to respec out of a Metal Oracle to Paladin and my character has been 3x more useful since. Oracles have limited spell resources and once they are out you're just stuck as a 3/4 BAB class with little else to do.
|
|
Warpriest does have the weak Fervor ability to swift heal yourself and the ability that protects against Fort saves that have reduced effects on fails.
Fervor is the single most powerful class ability in the game, even better than wildshape.
It may appear weak if you only use it for healing, but you should never use it for healing. Fervor is free quicken on your self buffs.
|
|
Warpriest does have the weak Fervor ability to swift heal yourself and the ability that protects against Fort saves that have reduced effects on fails.
Fervor is the single most powerful class ability in the game, even better than wildshape.
It may appear weak if you only use it for healing, but you should never use it for healing. Fervor is free quicken on your self buffs.
Great catch, I completely missed that.
I know Magda brought up some good points. Evangelist Cleric gets 5th and 6th level spells (Summon Monster VI for example), has Inspire Courage, and Channel Energy (Channel Pool which acts differently than Warpriest which you have to convert Fervor).
But you brought up a good point in which the Warpriest has multiple free uses of swift action buffing. The other thing that compels me to play a Sacred Fist is 7 attacks per flurry (spending 1 ki point + Divine Power).
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
To be honest Clerics/Healers are a bit rare in my local area. We have quite a few barbarians, rogues, rangers, and arcane casters. Healing is generally lacking which is why I'm worried ...Sounds like someone in your local area should play a reach cleric or oracle. All the offensive power of a Barbarian or Ranger, and all the support and healing of a full divine caster. Don't play as a healbot, of course!
I must take exception to the OPs disdain for standard action buffs. While they are usually not practical once combat has already begun, it's often possible to get them off just before combat begins. I play several characters who rely on Standard Action buffs. These characters very rarely waste a Standard Action in combat to cast them, but still usually manage to have them up. This with many different GMs.
An obvious example is Magda Luckbender, an 11th level reach cleric of Shelyn. With no buffs up her combat numbers stink on ice for an 11th level front line fighter: +11/+6 for 1D10+14 HP. Thing is, when the big fights actually happen the numbers are generally +23/+23/+18 for 2D8+1D6+30 HP. Yet she never wastes a Standard Action on self-buffing. If you only consider numbers calculated without buffs you are guaranteed to drastically underestimate this approach, leading to the erroneous conclusion that, for example, a monk can fight better than a cleric. An unbuffed monk will beat an unbuffed cleric, but a fully buffed cleric will crush a fully buffed monk. Similarly, the standard DPR calculation ignore AoOs, for various good reasons, which has the effect of undervaluing characters who fish for AoOs. For a build like Magda, actual combat damage is about five times larger than what DPR theory says it should be. This because of buffs (ignored in DPR calculations) and AoOs (also ignored in DPR calculations).
A more accurate model is to calculate a high end, a low end, then guess at the probability distribution....
If you are playing with GMs that allow you to spend rounds pre-buffing for most combats, AND you find that aren't wasting a lot of buffs getting ready for combats that don't actually happen, your GMs aren't doing their jobs right - and I feel bad for the non-casters in your party, because they are getting screwed. Don't get me wrong: I'm happy that you enjoy playing your character that way, but that is not how Pathfinder is supposed to be run.
|
|
...To be honest Clerics/Healers are a bit rare in my local area. We have quite a few barbarians, rogues, rangers, and arcane casters. Healing is generally lacking which is why I'm worried ...Sounds like someone in your local area should play a reach cleric or oracle. All the offensive power of a Barbarian or Ranger, and all the support and healing of a full divine caster. Don't play as a healbot, of course!
I must take exception to the OPs disdain for standard action buffs. While they are usually not practical once combat has already begun, it's often possible to get them off just before combat begins. I play several characters who rely on Standard Action buffs. These characters very rarely waste a Standard Action in combat to cast them, but still usually manage to have them up. This with many different GMs.
An obvious example is Magda Luckbender, an 11th level reach cleric of Shelyn. With no buffs up her combat numbers stink on ice for an 11th level front line fighter: +11/+6 for 1D10+14 HP. Thing is, when the big fights actually happen the numbers are generally +23/+23/+18 for 2D8+1D6+30 HP. Yet she never wastes a Standard Action on self-buffing. If you only consider numbers calculated without buffs you are guaranteed to drastically underestimate this approach, leading to the erroneous conclusion that, for example, a monk can fight better than a cleric. An unbuffed monk will beat an unbuffed cleric, but a fully buffed cleric will crush a fully buffed monk. Similarly, the standard DPR calculation ignore AoOs, for various good reasons, which has the effect of undervaluing characters who fish for AoOs. For a build like Magda, actual combat damage is about five times larger than what DPR theory says it should be. This because of buffs (ignored in DPR calculations) and AoOs (also ignored in DPR calculations).
A more accurate model is to calculate a high end, a low end, then guess
Yeah generally we get dropped on often unless we are standing outside of a building or just finished a combat and are expecting more combat soon. Other than that there's quite a bit of ambushes where those 1min buffs just can't be pre-casted.
--------
What selection of Blessings seems best?
Deity: Fumeiyoshi
Favored Weapon: Naginata 1d8(x4) Slashing
1st Blessing: War
2nd Blessing: ??? (choices are Death, Destruction, Evil, Repose)
going this route defaults me to casting inflict wounds and negative channeling unfortunately but it gives me access to the Naginata and I could pickup Improved Critical at 8th level.
other choice is
Deity: Neshen
Favored Weapon: Ranseur 2d4(x3) Piercing
1St Blessing: Liberation
2nd Blessing: ??? (choices are Good, Law, Strength)
Almost feeling that War Blessing and one of the others may be worth it even though I'm stuck with spontaneously casting inflict spells. I don't see myself blowing through Fervor to Positive Channel anyways if I was Good aligned. Seems mostly like a waste of Fervor.
|
|
If you go with fumeiyoshi, destruction and repose are both solid choices.
Inflict spells are not great, but it's not that big of a problem. Channel is a non issue as you should never channel on a warpriest. Literally anything that is not a swift action spell is a waste of fervor, with the possible exception of smite if you take that archetype.