Slashing Grace (Combat)
You can stab your enemies with your sword or another slashing weapon.
Prerequisite(s): Dex 13, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus with chosen weapon.
Benefit: Choose one kind of one-handed slashing weapon (such as the longsword). When wielding your chosen weapon one-handed, you can treat it as a one-handed piercing melee weapon for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon (such as a swashbuckler's or a duelist's precise strike) and you can add your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to that weapon's damage. The weapon must be one appropriate for your size.
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So, this is potentially the absolute best setup for a sword-and-board fighter with a longsword. You can completely dump strength unless you absolutely crave for Power Attack, all the while filling up your armor training dex to the brim.
Unless I'm missing something, is this build worth it?
Swashbuckler 1/Fighter 2
Strength: 10 0
Dexterity: 19 (+2; +1) 4
Constitution: 14 2
Intelligence: 10 0
Wisdom: 10 0
Charisma: 14 2
H1 - Weapon Focus (Longsword)
G1 - Slashing Grace
F2 - Dodge or Shield Focus or Improved Shield Bash
F3 - Extra Panache
G3 - Combat Reflexes
What we have:
Dex to attack, AC, damage and CMB.
Extra +2 to our Ref saves at earlier levels, no loss of overall feat amount.
The ability to parry up to 5 attacks per round at level 3, coupled with massive AC from a heavy wooden shield in case you fail.
The ability to get an exploding dice bonus on several of your physical skill checks when needed.
You can be a marginally decent party face with a respectable +6 to your social skills.
Later on, you can take Pommel Strike Deed, allowing you to basically trip someone as a standard action on your turn, or alternatively you could go for the longer Trip Chain and use Fury's Fall to very very good effect.
Because of Swashbuckler's Finesse, you could take Amateur Investigator and gain an inspiration pool to help you with various intelligence based checks.
Due to your decent charisma, you can take Eldritch Heritage if you so wish to. Perhaps for flavour, or perhaps for natural armor bonuses and whatnot.
You can later also take Battle Cry, granting your allies a very solid support twice or thrice per day with rerolls to failed saves. (You are an ally of yourself, also, remember.)
Later, if you feel like it, you could easily take some of the Two-Weapon Fighting feats and get into Shield Master at level 11-13. If you also take a few other feats, you could be doing your Dextirity modifier as damage to each attack without penalty to attack.
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Is it me, or did this thing basically just become a solution for nearly every problem the fighter used to have with the sword-and-board build?
You can actually wear a Mithral Full plate under your Armor Training and max out your allowed dex bonus while losing nothing in terms of offense.
It's got its uses, given a GM who chooses to attack hard targets with little offence or control abilities before attacking the glass cannons.
Unless you're lucky with ripostes parrying 5 attacks in a round means that next round you can parry none. Running out of panache is a problem for several of your positive points.
At 3rd level +6 to social skills is definitely backup face territory.
1d8+4 damage is less than impressive by level 3.
You don't have the intelligence required to make use of Amateur Investigator. You get Inspiration equal to Int mod (no minimum), bypassing the prereq doesn't change this.
In that case, you could drop off a point off of Dex and place into strength. It'll be just enough to get you up to 13, qualifying you for power atrack and thus placing us in the damage zone for being somewhat threatening.
Alternatively, one could take a light slashing weapon and use Piranha Strike, solving the damage problem that way, since the Slashing Grace feat requires it to be a one-handed slashing weapon, which should theoretically encompass light one-handed slashing weapons as well.
With either of those options we go up to 1d6-8+6 damage. Alternatively Combat Reflexes can be taken at level 2 and make way for Weapon Specialization at level 3, bringing us up to 1d6-8 + 8, which is roughly two-handed weapon damage material with similar to-hit bonuses provided we don't use our shield to bash just yet.
As for Panache. Killing an enemy allows you to regain some or a Keen Scimitar might help some.
Yeah, no, this is not special or helpful to a fighter. For one, it doesn't help with a longsword and board because Swashbuckler Finesse doesn't let you use a shield in your offhand other than a buckler. Slashing Grace is designed to pretty much only help actual Swashbucklers (though, as a side effect, it also helps whip users--I'm very interested in a whip using Warpriest with Slashing Grace). Fencing Grace could theoretically help a Fighter, since Rapiers are usable with regular Weapon Finesse, so, you can just take it as a feat instead of letting Swashbuckler's weapon finesse restricting your off-hand choice.
Second, dual wielding is a weaker route than a two-hander regardless of what you do. With Power Attack, your level 3 character concept (with the rapier and heavy shield, since it's legal) is landing blows for 1d6+6 (9.5 average). The Greatsword user at level 3 is dealing 2d6+9 (16 average), more than 50% more than you, and they only needed 1 feat, rather than several and an entire extra class feature. Further, you're only 2 AC ahead, so who cares?
In fact, that guy with the two-hander and power attack doesn't even need to be a Fighter. At level 3, they could be literally any class proficient with two-handed weapons, so, you could have a whole mess of other class abilities. Clerics, Inquisitors, Bards, whatever.
Sorry.
Not to mention that dumping Str affects your carry capacity. Hard to be useful when your shield puts you at medium load. Swashbucklers can get away with it, as they need minimal armor. However, sword-and-board needs strength just to move.
A, darn. I thought I found a panacea to all my problems. Although I still believe that the ability to parry and the extra precious class skills is still worth any charisma-built fighter's one level dip.
Although you could simply take the Amature Swashbuckler feat, the difference of gaining back your full pool over just 1 point at a time is pretty darn huge, I personally find.
Swashbuckler Finesse doesn't let you use a shield in your offhand other than a buckler.
This isn't anywhere in the Swashbuckler Finesse class feature you can use any type of shield that you want.
Swashbuckler Finesse doesn't let you use a shield in your offhand other than a buckler.This isn't anywhere in the Swashbuckler Finesse class feature you can use any type of shield that you want.
D'oh! I was thinking of Precise Strike. Oops.
D'oh! I was thinking of Precise Strike. Oops.Swashbuckler Finesse doesn't let you use a shield in your offhand other than a buckler.This isn't anywhere in the Swashbuckler Finesse class feature you can use any type of shield that you want.
I feel victorious.
Besides, two-handed may do more damage, but this current build is more reliable in its ability to stay alive while doing so, and if you're running a legitimate two-handed build without reach weapons and AoO's in mind, you're probably going for that 18 STR sweet spot, meaning your AC is most likely not 2 less than this build, but a whole lot less than it. Possibly by at least 3 AC if we're looking at full plate two-hander vs breastplate sword'n'board. And that gap's only going to increase as the build starts getting armor training.
Would the Shielded Fighter be an archetype you'd want to take with this, or nah? Or just stay with classic fighter?
D'oh! I was thinking of Precise Strike. Oops.Swashbuckler Finesse doesn't let you use a shield in your offhand other than a buckler.This isn't anywhere in the Swashbuckler Finesse class feature you can use any type of shield that you want.I feel victorious.
Besides, two-handed may do more damage, but this current build is more reliable in its ability to stay alive while doing so, and if you're running a legitimate two-handed build without reach weapons and AoO's in mind, you're probably going for that 18 STR sweet spot, meaning your AC is most likely not 2 less than this build, but a whole lot less than it. Possibly by at least 3 AC if we're looking at full plate two-hander vs breastplate sword'n'board. And that gap's only going to increase as the build starts getting armor training.
Would the Shielded Fighter be an archetype you'd want to take with this, or nah? Or just stay with classic fighter?
If you want to attack with the shield it could be a good Archetype for just AC Tower Shield Specialist could be a good one.
The Tower Shield penalties are kind of putting me off of that one. I think I'll stick with classic fighter, yeah.
AC is not an issue for fighters.
Note that for people on point buy good enough for 10-13 str, or with good rolls, it can make for an interesting investment for someone using two sawtooth sabers.
There's no provision in the feat that says 1 hand.
One might try the following on a 15pb.
Str 13, Dex 22(+2race, +1inherent, +2belt), con 14(+1inherent), int 8, wis 12, cha 7
Half-elf Fighter 8.
Feats:
1B EWP: Sawtooth Saber
1 Weapon finesse
1F Weapon Focus(Sawtooth Saber)
2F Two-weapon fighting
3 SG: StS
4F Double Slice
5 WSpec: StS
6F ITWF
7 Pirahna Strike
8F Step Up
In Mithral Full plate, which is well within carrying capacity of 50, you have a max dex of +6. If on better stats, or you want more room to grow dex, go with Mithral Breastplate+Armored kilt or a Mithral Tatami-do, which gives +7AC but +8 max dex. Mithral O-yoroi is +8/+7. Add +1 enchantment to whatever it is you go with.
Full Attacks, assuming 2 +1 blades, go like this;
+12/+12/+7/+7, 1d8+16/+13
It's not fantastic, but it certainly is a way to construct a workable dex-based two-weapon fighter, something which was hard-pressed to happen before.
I grant you, I wouldn't attempt this before level 3 at the earliest.
Edit: Amulet +1, ring +1, mithral full plate +1 gives us an AC of 28, which is nice.
You're still taking a -4 to hit on each of your attacks which is of dubious value. I mean it's better than grabbing agile on every weapon but not by that much.
I'm using sawtooth sabers, but I spent a feat on that.
We can easily agree that an archer would be better off, but it does have the advantage of making something feasible that wasn't really before (minimum 12k expenditure isn't really a thing you can do untill high levels.)
Note that for people on point buy good enough for 10-13 str, or with good rolls, it can make for an interesting investment for someone using two sawtooth sabers.You forgot your Swashbuckler level. As-is, you're using two Sabres with Strength to hit and Dex to damage, since to my knowledge Sabres aren't inherently finessable.
Sawtooth Sabres are not light weapons (even when TWFing, they're only treated as light for TWF penalties), so Piranha Strike is wasted. Though you have the Strength for Power Attack so I assume that's a typo.
Indeed. The swashbuckler level thing isn't important to the build at level 8, in fact I think it speeds up the feats by 1 level from level 4 onwards, but yes, you're correct on every count. Swash 1/fighter 7. Feats unchanged.
Edit: Also, the "dex to damage but still not hit" thing is moronic.
I honestly don't understand why it doesn't say:
This should have been in the CRB already.
Prereqs Weapon Finesse
Benefits Any attacks with weapons affected by weapon finesse now replace dexterity for strength to damage.
It's in the rules already, you just have to jump through hoops to make use of it. This feat would not change the current power level of dex-builds much, but it would reduce the amoubr of utter b&~*#+$! you currently have to deal with.