should i allow my players to take Lighten Weapon?

[Bandw2]

I feel Lighten weapon takes too many class features and sells them for the price of a feat, do you think I should ban it, or is what it gives not actually that much of a boon?

[mplindustries]

The truth is that abilities like this are a trap. -2 to hit will most often reduce your DPR (damage per round) more than the higher damage increases it. I wouldn't stop people from taking it because it obviates several class features, I would stop people from taking it because it will probably secretly gimp their character while only looking powerful.

[Anonymous Visitor 163 576]

I wouldn't take this. I have to spend a feat so I can miss more? Not a chance.

It's not even as good as Weapon Focus.

[Knight Magenta]

It seems meh. You spend a feat and take a -2 penalty all for what? +1 damage from size?

The best you can do is wield a large greatsword which does 3.5 damage more. Compare power attack that gives +3 damage at -1 to hit and it scales with bab.

If lighten weapon removed the penalty altogether it might be ok.

[gnomersy]

Well it's not actually that great in my opinion.

The -2 penalty to hit is a 10% damage reduction essentially, and the size increase on a weapon goes up by roughly 1.5 to 2 damage per die increased 1d4=2.5dmg 1d6=3.5dmg 1d8=4.5 1d10=5.5 2d6=7.

So lets say this lets you go from 1d10 to 2d8 you go from 5.5dmg to 9 dmg average. If you go from 2d6 to 3d6 you go from 7dmg to 10.5. That means in both cases you traded -2 to hit for 3.5 damage, based on power attack scaling that is sub par and most people only opt for power attack when they're getting -1 to hit for every +3 to damage. The value only decreases as your base damage increases since you can't do damage if you never hit.

Overall I'd say it's a neat feat meant for silly character ideas who don't want to take levels in Barbarian, but in terms of balance there is no pressing need to disallow the feat.

[Maezer]

You would take the feat to wield a (good) reach weapon in 1 hand. Allowing you to 2wf with them or combine a shield etc. Or they plan on maximizing their size beyond the one step in which case the -2 penalty may be less significant compared to the damage buff.

That said it's not so game breaking I'd disallow it for a mechanical reason. If you want to do it for re reasons then go ahead.

[Davor]

Dual Wielding Large, Spiked, Bashing Heavy Shields with Shield Master?

[gnomersy]

Davor wrote:

Dual Wielding Large, Spiked, Bashing Heavy Shields with Shield Master?

A reason to fix Shield Master not a reason to ban this feat also you can't wear improperly sized armor so you lose the armor bonus from the shield which makes it pretty darn mediocre.

[Avoron]

The primary danger of this feat is firearms. The penalty isn't that bad if you go against touch AC, and the feat can be used to do several powerful things:

1. Use two-weapon fighting with two-handed firearms, because it directly reduces the effort required to wield it, rather than the effective size.

2. Wield a really, really big Double Hackbut.

Other than using it with a firearm, it isn't that overpowered pragmatically, but it's more powerful than the options paizo has presented for doing that sort of thing.

[Anonymous Visitor 163 576]

Yeah, but then YOU'RE the double hackbut.

[ElementalXX]

Davor wrote:

Dual Wielding Large, Spiked, Bashing Heavy Shields with Shield Master?

Shield master feat has a flawed writing, but this certaintly doesnt break it so it goes from 5d8 to 6d8, is not such a big deal

[Bandw2]

there's the imrpoved feat which removes the to hit penalty

[CWheezy]

This feat is so bad, wow!

Each +1 to hit ~ translate to +2 damage (If he is using a two handed weapon, it is actually slightly more, but for now this is fine)

A greatsword goes from 2d6 to 3d6, with is an increase of 3.5 damage. His to hit goes down 2, which is -4 damage. This feat gives you -.5 damage overall.

Its very sad imo

[strayshift]

2 Feats for the improved version (+8 BAB+) MAY be worth it for a 2 handed weapon... MAY be... if you an rely on a regular enlarge.

[CalethosVB]

It makes for a pretty good character concept though.

When I first played D&D, my DM and I scoured all his resource books until I could find a way to make a two-weapon fighting character that used two greatswords. What we ended up finding was that I could use a greatsword in my main hand and a one-handed in my off-hand, which was just fine for me.

Although now I'd just go ahead and dual-wield a pair of reach weapons and take the two-weapon fighter archetype, or a reach and a non-reach weapon, with cleave, so I threaten everything.

[KuntaSS]

You'd be better threatening everything with a reach weapon wielded in two hands and spiked gauntlets/armor.

[Avoron]

First of all, if your attack bonus is high enough to hit on a 2 regardless, -2 attack results in -0 damage. This is sometimes the case for attacks against touch AC. coughfirearmscough.

This feat is useless for most characters, spectacular for some. Improved Vital Strike/Furious Finish with a Huge double hackbut does a lot of damage. This feat would allow you to use a Gargantuan double hackbut, for +96 damage on a hit.

The math for dual-wielding two-handed firearms is more complicated, but I imagine you would get similar results.

Improved Lighten Weapon is just icing on the cake.

[Ascalaphus]

The only part I find dubious is this:

Quote:

Special: The effect of this feat does not stack with other feats that alter wielding effort or weapon size. You may take this feat multiple times, each time choosing a different type of weapon.

What about other things that aren't feats that alter wielding effort or weapon size? Are they intended to be allowed, or did the author not think of them? This kind of overspecific and shortsighted restrictions annoy me.

[blackbloodtroll]

Is that not a new magic item that does this?

[revaar]

There was a feat in 3.5 that did this, monkey grip. It was underpowered then, and it is underpowered now. Let your players take it, and they can find out the hard way. Sure, they can go for the firearm route, but the average player who is attracted to this kind of feat is going to find the biggest sword they can, and play out their FF7 dreams. Typically, they'll pick up a huge Bastard Sword, doing 3d8 damage, and sucking up a -4 to hit, or they'll dual wield large ones for 2d8 each, at a -6 to hit.