So I am running a group and a new character coming in is going to be a Magus. She has put a fair number of points until Use Magic Device which, honestly, does not seem to make much sense for me. Please bear in mind that I still have some 3.5 prejudices when I interpret rules, so definitely correct me if something I say below is wrong.
Whenever a wand/staff/etc is created, it comes with a trigger word. If you know the keyword, you can use the item even if you are not a magic user. The primary purpose of the UMD skill is to allow rogues to try to use items they have stolen. However, the disadvantage here is that UMD has to be used _every_time_ you want to use the device. In contrast, a sufficiently high Spellcraft/Identify check will give the keyword, so you only ever have to make the roll once. If you are good at Spellcraft, you don't really need UMD.
I do realize that UMD has a second purpose. If an item has a limited use based on alignment, race, class, etc, you can use UMD to overcome this limitation. Ok, thats fine. So maybe even if you're good with magic, you might want UMD so you can wear that really awesome alignment prohibited armor. But this now raises a question. If UMD is useful to Sorcerers and Magi, why isn't it also a class skill for Wizards? In particular, if an arcane magic user gets formal training via an apprenticeship or at a magic school, why would Magi learn UMD but not Wizards? They both have to learn magic the same way (i.e. INT based via studying books.) It just really feels like there is a thematic disconnect here and I am wondering what the metagame logic is behind giving the Magus/Sorcerer UMD but not the Wizard. I don't want to tell my players how they have to spend their skill points, but unless I've missed something, it seems like a Magus putting points into UMD is wasteful.
|
2 people marked this as a favorite.
|
You cannot automatically use a spell-trigger device if you know the command word. Specifically, you can only use it if the spell the item contains is on your class spell list. Just knowing the word for a Wand of Cure Light doesn't let you use it; Cure Light must be on your class spell list (cleric, ranger, druid, paladin, bard). Anybody else must roll UMD every time they wish to use it.
Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
UMD is not primarily a formal skill, it's a knack some characters have for using magical devices. Rogues, sorcerers, and others, for various reasons, are assumed to have the aptitude.
Pathfinder Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
davypi wrote: Whenever a wand/staff/etc is created, it comes with a trigger word. If you know the keyword, you can use the item even if you are not a magic user. Not true. You can only use it directly if you have a given spell on your class spell list.
So a magus, sorcerer or wizard (or any class really) needs UMD in order to use any wand (or other item) with a spell not on their spell list, like a cure light wounds wand, for example.
Although wizards don't get UMD automatically, they can easily pick it up as a class skill using a trait like "dangerously curious".
I agree that it seems odd that wizards don't get UMD as a class skill right out of the box. But those are the rules. Using a trait for this seems like a good thing to do, IMO.
RJGrady wrote: Rogues, sorcerers, and others, for various reasons, are assumed to have the aptitude. Ok, but this is the crux of my question. What EXACTLY are the "various reasons"? I can start to see why the Magus needs it as they can only go up to level 6 spells. But the Sorcerer and the Wizard have the exact same spell list. Why one but not the other?
The Wizard is the paragon of arcane power. If they come across a random scroll, they copy it into their spellbook and that's pretty much that. With a divine scroll or what have you they're out in the cold, but that's their only real blindspot.
But the Sorcerer... is not. If the Sorcerer needs to cast Remove Curse, and it didn't happen to be on his limited spells known, he'd be screwed. So the Sorcerer has a very real reason to be trained in how to use unfamiliar pieces of magic (and yes, I'm aware that they can cast it off a scroll without UMD, but the point stands). From a power perspective that extends a bit further: if your party is short a divine caster, a Sorcerer with a lot of scrolls is the best substitute between high Cha and UMD as a class skill.
The Magus has a somewhat similar problem-- their arcane magic is inherently worse than the Wizard's. If a Magus wants to cast Remove Curse, he's entirely screwed. He needs UMD just to emulate the power of the Wizard. Hence he has a strong reason to learn it-- it, and his skill with weapons, are his keys to trying to match the Wizard. He's not as good at it as the Sorcerer-- Int as a casting stat instead of Cha-- but still better than the Wizard since it's on his list.
Ok. So I'm beginning to see another failure in my understanding. I also missed the fact that Magus has a limited spell list. For some reason I was assuming the Magus list was the same the Wizard/Sorcerer. Thanks to all for the help.
Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
davypi wrote: RJGrady wrote: Rogues, sorcerers, and others, for various reasons, are assumed to have the aptitude. Ok, but this is the crux of my question. What EXACTLY are the "various reasons"? I can start to see why the Magus needs it as they can only go up to level 6 spells. But the Sorcerer and the Wizard have the exact same spell list. Why one but not the other? Rogues are cunning, and find ways to get items to work for them. Sorcerers have a natural aptitude for magic. Witches, likewise, have less formal training and more intuition.
Wizards are experts in a certain style of magic. Anything outside their formal paradigm is inaccessible. Almost no wizards can cast cure spells, for instance, even though bards and some sorcerers can.
It strikes me as a bit funny that the people who study the workings of magic for power (Wizards) are bad at using magic items compared to the improvisers (Sorcerers) and the fakers (Rogues).
UMD is like a bluff against a magic item. "No really. Your spell is totally on my list." This is why it's charisma based.
I'm more curious why magus have it. It doesn't really fit them as a non charisma class.
Geez the real answer to me is that it was a common theme in 3.x, "Why don't sorcerers get Use Magic Device? They kind of suck anyway, and charisma is their main stat, which is mostly useless compared to int at least."
As far as UMD goes, it is an artifact that one of the class features of Thieves in 1st and 2nd edition was being able to use scrolls when they got to 10th level or something. Like everything else in 3.x this needed to be turned into a skill or something, where you could roll dice on it.
So when they got around to differentiating Pathfinder from 3.x, one of the house rules of someone or another was adopted, ie Sorcerers get UMD.
I really can't see it being any more complicated than that. My take is they didn't make this change because they went back to the underpinnings of the class and said "Sorcerers are connected to the basis of magic by nature, so they should have some sort of ability to manipulate it, regardless of form or source."
What is more interesting to me is how the skill is so easy to get as a class skill (traits) or it just comes with the class for no apparent reason (Magus). Not a scientific thing by any stretch, but it sure seems like more classes have it as a class skill than not now, at least the newer classes that come out.
I know that no matter what class I make now (Fighter for example) I make sure to put some feats, traits, and skill points into using it. Why not?
4th day of the year and we get a "Why do X get UMD" thread before we got a "does my Paladin fall for y" thread.. I think that's a record in both departments.
To be fair, this was a res of an old thread.
And we got a Paladin thread already. The one about babies.
Recent threads in General Discussion
|
