Building a pfs grappler. Optimization advice.

[Human Fighter]

I would hear that the Tetori monk archetype was how to do a grapple build, but with the new ACG are there better choices in classes, even if it's due to the new feats?

Anyone know where I could find a guide that is more recent on the subject?

I'm looking for advice on multiclassing, necessary feats, cool combos etc. Myself and a lot of people I know are not knowledgeable about grappling, so this should be a great opportunity for everyone because they'll be forced to learn along with myself.

Please, advice is appreciated for a pfs legal build.

[Fruian Thistlefoot]

There is several options.

Straight tetori

Master of many styles monk/stranger brawler. Pick up snapping turtle style and grabbing style.

[Human Fighter]

Why suggest snapping turtle style?

[LoneKnave]

Because it can make immediate action grapples.

Honestly, I don't think it's actually any good. Anything in particular you'd like to build? Maneuver master, white haired witch, even straight barb are options. In fact, I'd say with some multiclassing, so is any class with SA now.

[Secane]

Straight Tetori gives the most mileage, thanks to that archetype's ability to grapple targets under a freedom of movement spell.

You can try going Tetori with a lv or 2 of Barbarian for an extra boost to hit and damage. (The Animal Fury (Ex) rage power is kinda good for the extra attack and bonuses to grapple.)

(!) To mix Barb with Monk, you need to use the adopted social trait to pick up the Enlightened Warrior race trait and be N or NG. The Enlightened Warrior trait allows you to advance in levels of monk even if you are N or NG.

[Dafydd]

Do not go strangler brawler, you give up a lot for a really poor imitation of sneak attack.

Straight Brawler looks like it is amazing at grappling (check out the pregen, lvl 4 have a +13 or so to its grapple)

I would dip MoMS for the snapping turtle and grabbing style. Being able to block their thrust and choke hold them because they missed is great. Toss on the squirming when you pin to be able to really add to the dog pile.

[Fruian Thistlefoot]

Because grabbing style leaves an arm open. Turtle clutch allows no loss of AC but a boosted AC that allows immediate grapple attempt. You can then have 2 people under the grapple condition.

With stranger archetype on top of that you deal really good damage by strangulation.

1 handed grapple without suffering the grappling penalty yourself. Its really good.

Maybe not as good as grappling someone under freedom of movement but not much in PFS uses freedom of movement.

[Human Fighter]

I'm bad with the grapple rules, and don't know what the advantage is for a monk to have a hand open while grappling. I'd assume they wouldn't be holding anything in the first place.

[Sacredless]

If you'd like an alternative hammer role, a grappler can tie up opponents. If you take a few levels in a cavalier of the penitent, you can tie opponents up without penalty on a second maintaining grappling attempt. Taking master of many styles, you can grapple the target and tie it up in the same turn, rendering them useless. And your mount might be able to fetch any tied up targets you have, so their buddies won't cut them loose.

Not sure if that was what you were looking for, but it makes a really cool hogtie character with anvil capabilities.

[Fruian Thistlefoot]

Quote:

I'm bad with the grapple rules, and don't know what the advantage is for a monk to have a hand open while grappling. I'd assume they wouldn't be holding anything in the first place.

Reason 1. Ability to take AoO while grappling.

Reason 2. AC

You asked about Why suggestion Snapping Turtle style.

Here are thee feats I was suggestion with the Archetype.

Feats:

Grabbing style:

Benefit: When you use this style, you do not take a –4 penalty on combat maneuver checks to grapple a foe with only one hand. Additionally, you do not lose your Dexterity bonus to AC while pinning an opponent.

Normal: Without two hands free, you take a –4 penalty on the combat maneuver roll to grapple a foe. While pinning a foe, you lose your Dexterity bonus to AC.

Grabbing style allows 1 handed grapples without -4 penalty. Also you do not loose your DEX to AC while Pinning.

Grabbing master:

Benefit: When you are grabbing two opponents while using Grabbing Style, you can use your grapple to move or damage one or both opponents you are grappling, instead of just one.

Can hold down 2 enemies now.

snapping turtle style:

Benefit: While using the Snapping Turtle Style feat with at least one hand free, you gain a +1 shield bonus to AC.

Adding +1 AC while grappling. So your AC is going up.

snapping turtle Shell:

Benefit: While you are using the Snapping Turtle Style feat, the shield bonus the style grants to your AC increases to +2, and your enemies take a –4 penalty on critical confirmation rolls against you.

Adding another AC and making it difficult to confirm critical against you. That is a pretty good thing.

snapping turtle master:

Benefit: While you are using the Snapping Turtle Style feat, the shield bonus the style grants to your AC applies to your CMD and touch AC. Whenever an opponent misses you with a melee attack while you are using the Snapping Turtle Style feat, you can use an immediate action to attempt a grapple combat maneuver against that opponent, but with a –2 penalty.

Now the increased AC is on touch AC and CMD. this makes it difficult to beat you in the grapple. Improved and greater grapple + snapping turtle master your getting +6 to defense of grapples. If you add in a dusty rose prism + wayfinder, Armbands of the brawler, and Brawling armor your looking at a very awesome grappler.

If you add in Crane Riposte into your build you can walk out into melee...when something attacks and misses it gets grappled by you...just to be damaged next turn. If anything comes to its friends aid and attacks you....Crane riposte and strangle 2 of them at once.

Yes the strangler archetype isnt very strong but a 2 level dip gives you +2d6 sneak attack and when a strangler has the grappled condition, she does not take a –4 penalty to Dexterity and does not lose her Dexterity bonus to AC.

Add that to unarmed damage and armor spikes your looking at some pretty decent damage while you choke the life out of someone.

Not the "strongest" build but a good build none the less. the best of the best grappling builds I believe are super multi-classed.

[Ms. Pleiades]

Human Fighter wrote:

I'm bad with the grapple rules, and don't know what the advantage is for a monk to have a hand open while grappling. I'd assume they wouldn't be holding anything in the first place.

Exactly. You have one more free limb to hurt people with.

Remember that the Monk's whole schtick in most cases is that his body is a weapon.

[Scott Wilhelm]

Fruian Thistlefoot wrote:

Quote:

I'm bad with the grapple rules, and don't know what the advantage is for a monk to have a hand open while grappling. I'd assume they wouldn't be holding anything in the first place.

Reason 1. Ability to take AoO while grappling.

Reason 2. AC

You asked about Why suggestion Snapping Turtle style.

Here are thee feats I was suggestion with the Archetype.

Feats:
** spoiler omitted **
Grabbing style allows 1 handed grapples without -4 penalty. Also you do not loose your DEX to AC while Pinning.

** spoiler omitted **
Can hold down 2 enemies now.

** spoiler omitted **
Adding +1 AC while grappling. So your AC is going up.

** spoiler omitted **
Adding another AC and making it difficult to confirm critical against you. That is a pretty good thing.

** spoiler omitted **...

I'm impressed by Grappling Style and Grappling Master. What book are they in? Would you be so good as to offer a citation?

[Ms. Pleiades]

Snapping Turtle Style comes from Ultimate Combat.

Grappling Style (Actually Grabbing Style), comes from the Advanced Class Guide.

[Fruian Thistlefoot]

Yup Ms. Pleiades has it right.

[Scott Wilhelm]

Oops, Grabbing, not Grappling. I found it under Combat Feats on d20pfsrd. It's from the Advanced Class Guide. I think I'll have to look at that again.

I've had a successful grapple build. I get Greater Grapple and take 2 levels in Cavalier and join the Order of the Penitent (from Knights of the Inner Sea). With the Order Ability Expert Captor, you can Tie Up your opponent as part of your Maintain a Grapple Action without having Pinned your opponent first, and you don't suffer the -10. That means that you begin the round adjacent to your opponent, you can Initiate a Grapple as a Standard Action and then Tie him Up as a Move Action all in 1 round: pretty cool.

There are a lot of ways to bring up your Grapple mod: Armbands of the Brawler, the Brawling Enchantment, Gauntlets of the Skilled Maneuver. Take Improved Grapple and Greater Grapple, of course. Take 4 levels in Alchemist. An Extract of Bull Strength stacks with a Strength Mutagen. Grow a Tentacle for the Grab Ability (+4) and a King Crab Tumor Familiar (+2). I'd argue to my PFS referee that if I have a Tentacle, then I am using it when I'm Grappling, and that means that bonuses to my Tentacle from an Amulet of Mighty Fists should grant a Grapple bonus. That is a controversial thing for me to say.

But the most powerful bonus to your Grappling? True Strike! Sadly, you need to make 2 attack rolls in your 1 round Tie Up. There is no such thing as a Potion of True Strike in PFS. An Elixer of True Strike is functionally the same thing, but that would count in PFS as a customized magic item: illegal. The Sipping Jacket won't work reliably, although the occasional PFS referee might allow you to use it with an Extract or Infusion of True Strike. The Quinggong True Strike Ki Ability requires a Standard Action. There is the Volatile Vaporizer, but there are problems with that. There is a fast drinker trait, but is a Mythic Trait, I think. My favorite way to use True Strike 2X in 1 round as a Grappler is with the Potion Glutton Feat in Inner Sea Gods. You can drink any potable as a Swift Action. The problem with that is roleplaying: to take Potion Glutton, you have to worship Uragothoa, the god of Death and Excess, which would be a roleplaying challenge if you are also a Cavalier of the Order of the Penitent, who swear a vow to never kill. But if you want to minmax your way to being able to sodomize a Balor Demon in 1 round before level 12, you have to be aggressive.

Now since the goal is to Tie Up your opponents, the question now is how to get good rope: most monsters with a CMD higher than 50 can burst a Hemp Rope rather than make an Escape Artist check. Hemp Rope has a burst DC of 23, Silk Rope: 24, Spider Silk Rope: 25, Chain 26. There is the Robe of Infinite Twine: a must have, but that only makes hemp rope (and twine). There is Iron Rope, which upon the Command Word turns into iron. If you time your offensive with your allies, you can have the next ally with an action use his Standard Action to activate the Iron Rope. There are no statistics for adamantine chain. But there are statistics for an adamantine Dwarven Dorn Dergar, a 10'long chain weapon. A referee should allow you to use that to Tie Up your opponents, but since that is such an unusual situation, different PFS referees might make capricious rulings. If you are under the effect of something like an Enlarge Person Spell, your ropes and chains grow with you, so your stout climbing rope turns into suspension bridge cable, but once again, there are no clear rules that I know of that deal with how that affects burst DC.

Now, thanks to Furian, I need to think of a way to work in a couple of levels of Brawler, and get Brawler's Flurry so I get get those Grabbing feats, so I can Tie Up 2 opponents/round.

[Scott Wilhelm]

Something else I've been wanting to do with Grappling, but it isn't exactly a Grapple Build. If you take 2 levels in White Haired Witch, then you gain Constrict. This Constrict ability could serve as the rare prerequisite for the Final Embrace Feat, which will gift all your natural attacks with the Grab and Constrict abilities.

Your Constrict attack will do the damage of your main natural attack. I envision a Tengu character with the Claws Racial Trait, Feral Combat Training Claws, and Improved Natural Attack Claws, which a PFS character can get via 2 levels in Ranger. I also would take the Monastic Legacy Feat, and by level 6, those Claws will be doing 2d6 each.

Tengu also have a Bite Attack, so the full round attack routine will be Bite/2 Claws/Hair/Unarmed Strike. Most of those 5 attacks wouldn't do that much damage, but you can use Grab and Constrict to add that 2d6 Claw damage to every one of those attacks. Maybe get a Mammoth Helm and get a Gore Attack, too. And maybe get a Tentacle Cloak to get 2 Tentacle attacks. I can't recall the name of an inexpensive (under 10,000gp) magic item that gives you a Talon attack, but I'm pretty sure there is one.

The 3 Monk levels would be in Master of Many Styles. I like Snake Style and Snake Fang. Every time someone attacks you and misses, you get an unarmed Attack of Opportunity. This PFS character would start with a Dex of 16, so that's 4 AoO's/round + and Immediate Action Attack. You can use your FCT-gifted Claws for those attacks, and you get to use Grab and Constrict as part of those attacks, too. So that's like 9 attacks/round that all do horrendous damage, maybe 8, since if I'm using Snake Fang, I'd also like to use a Shield.

Wear Armor Spikes, and you get to inflict bonus damage with every successful Grapple Check.

[Fruian Thistlefoot]

Here is a monstrosity I put together recently as a Badguy thanks to Scott wilhelm's old grapple monster.

Not PFS legal grapple monstrosity:

1HD Slayer 1: Power attack and Improved Grapple
2HD Slayer 1/MoMS Monk 1: Snake style
3HD Slayer 1/ Monk 2: Snake Fang, Combat reflexes
4HD Slayer 1/ Monk 2/ Vivisectionist Alchemist 1: Sneak attack 1d6
5HD Slayer 1/ Monk 2/ Alchemist 2: Monastic Legacy, Discovery-Tentacle
6HD Slayer 1/ monk 2/ Alchemist 3: Sneak attack 2d6
7HD Slayer 2/ Monk 2/ Alchemist 3: Weapon focus Tentacle, Improved Natural attack Tentacle
8HD Slayer 2/ Monk 2/ Alchemist 3/ Strangler Brawler 1: Sneak attack 3d6
9HD Slayer 2/ Monk 2/ Alchemist 3/ Brawler 2: Feral combat training, Greater grapple, Sneak attack 4d6
10HD Slayer 2/ Monk 2/ Alchemist 4/ Brawler 2: Discovery Tumor Familiar King Crab (+2 Grapple)
11HD- Slayer 2/ Monk 2/ Alchemist 4/ Brawler 3: Potion glutton, +1 Grapple

I opted out of tie up with a rope and cavalier levels but added more sneak attack during the grapple to play a cheese grater. Still uses true strike and potion glutton.

Add Armbands of the Brawler (500gp), the Brawling Enchantment, Gauntlets of the Skilled Maneuver, and a Dusty rose prism Ioun stone inside a Wayfinder.

Your looking at over +40 to grapple after a chugged true strike and buffs.

[Scott Wilhelm]

If you work in Sap Adept, and Sap Master, your Sneak Attack Damage will triple.

With Sneak Attack, I like to work in something that locks in the Sneak Attack Damage, like some way of turning Invisible or maybe Dirty Trick Feats to make opponents go Blind.

Furian, your build is inspirational.