Magus Spellstrike

[Dafydd]

So I have a whip focused magus, specialized in tripping and disarming. During my last game, I had a thought about using the tripping and disarming to deliver the touch spells.

I think this is legal because the FAQ says I may deliver the touch attacks through my weapon during later rounds via a melee attack. I can also substitute a combat maneuver for a melee attack by the rules in Trip and Disarm (as well as others, but these are the 2 specific ones I am looking at)

However, I have not found anything that comes out and says that these actually work together.

Thank you for the thoughts

[Nefreet]

Trip and Disarm? Probably not. They don't deal damage.

I only believe Sunder works (which is what I did with my Magus in PFS, and after 12 levels never encountered an argument against it).

[LoneKnave]

Touch attacks also don't deal damage but deliver the charge, so I don't see what trip and disarm not dealing damage has to do with that.

Not saying it works, but if it doesn't, that's not the reason why.

[Dafydd]

Spellstrike wrote:

At 2nd level, whenever a magus casts a spell with a range of “touch” from the magus spell list, he can deliver the spell through any weapon he is wielding as part of a melee attack. Instead of the free melee touch attack normally allowed to deliver the spell, a magus can make one free melee attack with his weapon (at his highest base attack bonus) as part of casting this spell. If successful, this melee attack deals its normal damage as well as the effects of the spell. If the magus makes this attack in concert with spell combat, this melee attack takes all the penalties accrued by spell combat melee attacks. This attack uses the weapon’s critical range (20, 19–20, or 18–20 and modified by the keen weapon property or similar effects), but the spell effect only deals ×2 damage on a successful critical hit, while the weapon damage uses its own critical modifier.

If I understand Nefreet right, this bolded part is the source of his argument. It is what made me stop and question it personally at the table.

However, I am not sure if that is strict rules text there. Hence the questioning of it.

[Imbicatus]

A trip and a disarm can be substituted for an attack as part of full attack. It is a melee attack that has a normal damage of 0. Nowhere does it say that the attack has to do actual damage to deliver the spell with spellstrike. If it did, the spell would not trigger if you failed to overcome DR.

I would say it works RAW.

[LoneKnave]

Trip and Disarm have normal damage of none, so it deals none, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't work imo.

I mean, it also doesn't say the attack delivers any other effects, but I'm pretty sure they still do.

DISCLAIMER! The following is just my ramblings, don't take seriously DISCLAIMER!

For reference, the Blood Conduit bloodrager archetype can deliver when he succeeds at a combat maneuver check to bull rush, grapple, pin, reposition, or trip an opponent, or makes an unarmed strike against an enemy.

While this is just me divining intent from RAW (effectively making up BS with very little to support me), these seem to be all actions that have contact, while disarm traditionally doesn't, so if it was up to me, and I was in a vindicative mood, I'd say disarm probably doesn't deliver the charge. I'd have to be really pissed at you to say that though, because most IRL disarm maneuvers involve touching the opponent with your weapon/body.

[Mathwei ap Niall]

Dafydd wrote:

Spellstrike wrote:

At 2nd level, whenever a magus casts a spell with a range of “touch” from the magus spell list, he can deliver the spell through any weapon he is wielding as part of a melee attack. Instead of the free melee touch attack normally allowed to deliver the spell, a magus can make one free melee attack with his weapon (at his highest base attack bonus) as part of casting this spell. If successful, this melee attack deals its normal damage as well as the effects of the spell. If the magus makes this attack in concert with spell combat, this melee attack takes all the penalties accrued by spell combat melee attacks. This attack uses the weapon’s critical range (20, 19–20, or 18–20 and modified by the keen weapon property or similar effects), but the spell effect only deals ×2 damage on a successful critical hit, while the weapon damage uses its own critical modifier.

If I understand Nefreet right, this bolded part is the source of his argument. It is what made me stop and question it personally at the table.

However, I am not sure if that is strict rules text there. Hence the questioning of it.

Zero damage is still normal damage, it's just zero.

The part you need to look at is under the rules for combat maneuvers.

combat maneuvers wrote:

Combat maneuvers are attack rolls, so you must roll for concealment and take any other penalties that would normally apply to an attack roll.

The only requirement for a spellstrike is that it be delivered via a melee attack which combat maneuvers are explicitly called out as.

You're original assumption is correct. Trips, Disarms, Sunders, etc are all attack rolls and are valid choices for spellstrike.

[Nefreet]

I've seen this topic come up before. It's "frequently asked", if you will. We should dig around and see what other ppl have argued in the past.

[Jiggy]

Frankly, this is just a dressed-up version of an older question: if my wizard grapples you while he's holding a charge, do you get zapped or not?

The question of whether a combat maneuver can discharge a touch spell has nothing to do with the magus, and (to my knowledge) has been unanswered for the entire time Pathfinder has existed.

[Thistlepatch]

The tripping staff feat specifically indicates that if it is taken, the Staff Magus can use spellstrike on a trip attack. That seems to imply that trips/disarms do not work with spellstrike without something like this.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/tripping-staff-combat

Tripping Staff (Combat)

You can make a trip attack with your quarterstaff.

Prerequisites: Int 13, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Weapon Focus (quarterstaff ), base attack bonus +6.

Benefit: You treat quarterstaves as if they had the trip special feature.

Special: If you are a magus with the staff magus archetype, you can use spellstrike on any trip combat maneuver you make with the staff.

[Imbicatus]

That is an indication that the author of the feat thought you are unable to make a spellstrike on an attack maneuver.

However, it wouldn't be the first time there was a feat or archetype that did absolutely nothing that wasn't already available.

[Dafydd]

Thistlepatch wrote:

The tripping staff feat specifically indicates that if it is taken, the Staff Magus can use spellstrike on a trip attack. That seems to imply that trips/disarms do not work with spellstrike without something like this.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/tripping-staff-combat

Tripping Staff (Combat)

You can make a trip attack with your quarterstaff.

Prerequisites: Int 13, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Weapon Focus (quarterstaff ), base attack bonus +6.

Benefit: You treat quarterstaves as if they had the trip special feature.

Special: If you are a magus with the staff magus archetype, you can use spellstrike on any trip combat maneuver you make with the staff.

Keep in mind the normal benefit is making the staff a trip weapon. Since then, there was an update that you could trip with any weapon, not just a weapon with the trip property.

[DeathlessOne]

Jiggy wrote:

Frankly, this is just a dressed-up version of an older question: if my wizard grapples you while he's holding a charge, do you get zapped or not?

The question of whether a combat maneuver can discharge a touch spell has nothing to do with the Magus, and (to my knowledge) has been unanswered for the entire time Pathfinder has existed.

My answer to this has always been "Yes!".

GAME RULES: "If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges."

Barring contact with the ground or other semantic arguments, the next time a 'valid target' comes in contact with you in any way, they get zapped, intentionally or not.

MORE GAME RULES: "You can touch one friend as a standard action or up to six friends as a full-round action. Alternatively, you may make a normal unarmed attack (or an attack with a natural weapon) while holding a charge." AoO DISCLAIMER!!! "If the attack hits, you deal normal damage for your unarmed attack or natural weapon and the spell discharges. If the attack misses, you are still holding the charge."

Anyone can spell strike! At least with their fists or natural weapon. They need to come into contact with their target. Only the Magus class gets the fancy, through the weapon stuff. Gives the unarmed monk, rogue, or anyone else a vicious bite when they attack, should they have UMD and a wand of shocking grasp. Add that to sneak attack and, ow!

Someone hits you while holding a charge? If its a weapon, that weapon gets hit with the spell. If its an unarmed strike or natural weapon, that creature gets his with the spell. Disarm affects the weapon, spell channeled through the weapon hits the weapon.

Quote:

Special: If you are a magus with the staff magus archetype, you can use spellstrike on any trip combat maneuver you make with the staff.

My belief is that this allows the casting of a spell and then the attack roll of the weapon to be used in a trip attempt, sort of an update to the Spellstrike class ability.

GAME RULES: "a magus can make one free melee attack with his weapon".

If your weapon is not a trip, disarm, etc weapon, you can't make the attempt with that weapon as part of the Spellstrike ability. You have to use your body (which provokes normally) as part of a different standard action, though that attempt would deliver the spell if you come into contact, as normal.