Yes, they are harder to mess up.
Spontaneous casters are stuck with what they have, period. Prepared casters are not.
It may be a difficult skill, but so is picking spells to begi with. If you can't pick spells properly for one, you can't pick spells properly for the other. There's more margin for error in prepared casters.
Spontaneous casters don't "always have the right spells prepared", I'm not sure where you get that notion. They have the spells they have.
Except they aren't really. PF adds loads of ways for sponataneous casters to gain extar spells known whether it is with cash and pages of spell knowledge, the Human FCB, Mnemonic Vestment, Paragon Surge, Razmirian Priests or the Spirit Guide archetype.
Every 9th level caster has a ceiling of 10+ at high OP levels in PF because all of them can access their entire list in one way or another and many of them can poach from others.
No, they can't.
Those options aren't generally taken in large numbers by low-average op level players, so it doesn't change the floor.
Even at high op levels they don't particularly make up for the prepared spellcasting advantage.
The Human FCB is the most significant there.
Mnemonic Vest and Paragon Surge are both once per day (essentially), and Paragon Surge is further limited by race.
Spirit Guide is very good, but still doesn't really close that gap.
Razmiran Priest likewise.
They're both good for an entirely different reason, however, which is accessing different spell lists.
And I wasn't assuming anything about starting spells...just that if their spells aren't working, the Wizard's player might look into getting new and different ones. Since, y'know, he can.Changing your spells over and over until you get it right and, essentially, learn a new skill (how to prepare spells correctly) is a lot different than the actual responses I've seen such as:
- Absolutely fail to realize how crappy you are and continue on as a dead weight to the party without knowing it
- Loudly complain that wizards are useless and that other classes need nerfs
- Refuse to admit the problem is you and just pretend you're bored of the idea so you can make something else
- Never play any class with vancian magic again
- Start multi-classing as a Fighter or Barbarian or something, abandon magic essentially entirely, and switch everything over to a fighting build with a couple of gimped d6 HD.
I've honestly never witnessed someone actually get better at preparing spells. They've either given up, or continued to suck. But mostly just given up.
Frankly, as much as I recognize the potential power of it, I HATE preparing spells, personally, and find that for every day you pull it off perfectly and ruin an oppositional GM's day, there's another you get caught with your pants down and you can't Black Tentacles ghosts.
That's a problem with player attitude, not their optimization level.
"I suck at it, therefore it is bad." is not most people's attitude.
"I suck at it, therefore it is bad." is not most people's attitude.
Actually, thanks to cognitive dissonance, that is exactly the most common and expected response. It is why people who die in a video game tend to blame the computer glitching or cheating, rather than accepting that they are the problem. Human brains do not want to admit to inadequacy.
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Spontaneous casters don't "always have the right spells prepared", I'm not sure where you get that notion. They have the spells they have.
Except they aren't really. PF adds loads of ways for sponataneous casters to gain extra spells known whether it is with cash and pages of spell knowledge, the Human FCB, Mnemonic Vestment, Paragon Surge, Razmirian Priests or the Spirit Guide archetype.
While that may be true, isn't that exactly the kind of game-savvy knowledge that comes with experience?
I wouldn't expect a new or inexperienced player to know such things existed, let alone that they were good choices.
So it's not really relevant to a discussion of the floor level, unless your hypothetical inexperienced player has a more experienced player building their character for them, which defeats the point of the thread.
"I suck at it, therefore it is bad." is not most people's attitude.Actually, thanks to cognitive dissonance, that is exactly the most common and expected response. It is why people who die in a video game tend to blame the computer glitching or cheating, rather than accepting that they are the problem. Human brains do not want to admit to inadequacy.
It's easier to do with video games ("It wouldn't let me jump!"), especially since often enough there ARE minor glitches or input delay, so it's easy to go "Yeah, it did THAT again..." even when you screwed up that time.
Here...you don't really have anything to blame but yourself.
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If you're talking about 'Who's easier to mess up, prepared or spontaneous casters?', then by definition, you're talking about the floor.
A player who can't tell good spells from bad is going to make bad choices as either. But as a sorcerer, he's stuck with them, unless the GM takes pity on him and lets him rebuild. He can't learn new ones or trade out till he levels up.
If he was playing a wizard, he can. He can pick different ones from his spellbook, learn from the scrolls he finds as treasure, or go back to town and buy new ones.
It's a totally different world of customisation potential, and even the most rubbish player can be shown how to do it, though you may have to prod them.
Pages of spell knowledge and human sorcerer favored class bonus are nice, but all they do is replicate a safety net that the wizard already has, by virtue of his class, and could be using after his first, failed adventure, as long as he came away with 25gp to show for it.
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But as a sorcerer, he's stuck with them, unless the GM takes pity on him and lets him rebuild. He can't learn new ones or trade out till he levels up.The page of spell knowledge allows you to do just that. As does the mnemonic vestment. As does paragon surge. The razmirian priest archetype may as well say "have access to every divine spell of level 8 or lower" printed on it.
Players who understand the class easily take spontaneous casters to the equal of prepared ones. I know, I have done it several times.
I'm not sure you understand the concept of a skill floor.
Look it up and come back.
Plus, Mnemonic Vestments/Paragon Surge are basically just an Arcane Bond. Once per day, you get a new spell.
Pages of Spell Knowledge are RIDICULOUSLY expensive past about 3rd level spells. Most skilled players aren't going to take a bunch of those because there's better things to spend your money on.
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I reiterate that the difference between spontaneous and prepared floors isn't in knowing which spells to learn, but rather in the added complication of having to guess how many of each spell to prepare each day. In the same way as a melee character's player knows to get something like power attack, toughness, or dodge, a caster character's player knows to get at least one spell they can imagine using in combat, usually a damage spell.
And "leave open spell slots" isn't a valid argument. Players operating at the effectiveness floor don't know to do that.
I reiterate that the difference between spontaneous and prepared floors isn't in knowing which spells to learn, but rather in the added complication of having to guess how many of each spell to prepare each day. In the same way as a melee character's player knows to get something like power attack, toughness, or dodge, a caster character's player knows to get at least one spell they can imagine using in combat, usually a damage spell.
And "leave open spell slots" isn't a valid argument. Players operating at the effectiveness floor don't know to do that.
It's also not valid because you can't prepare spells in the middle of combat.
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I reiterate that the difference between spontaneous and prepared floors isn't in knowing which spells to learn, but rather in the added complication of having to guess how many of each spell to prepare each day.
Which is why being given Scribe Scroll as a bonus feat at level 1 is so useful. It allows the wizard to buy (or be given) those corner-case, situational spells for his spellbook, and have scrolls of them available if he is ever faced with a nontypical encounter.
This frees up his prepared slots for the more generally useful spells.It's a huge safety net, for even the most inexperienced player, since it allows the GM to seed treasure hauls with the tools he knows the PCs will need in the campaign, without relying on the player to predict challenge-appropriate obstacles in a fixed-spell-known build.
It also allows other players to help the wizard's player, by advising things he could buy, or even buying them from their own cash, and suggesting 'it would be really helpful if you put that in your spellbook', and had a few scrolls made during the next trip to town. Spells that the wizard may have glossed over, because they don't seem good to him, personally.
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I'm assuming a group of floor-level players, such that there is no outside help, either from other players or the GM. The GM is likely running a published scenario. All of the players I can think of that I would consider floor-level would forget they even have scrolls, and would end up selling them after 3 levels of forgetting to use them. They probably don't even understand how to add spells to their spellbook outside of leveling.
I've been operating on a definition of "floor-level player" that means little beyond knowing fighters hit things and need physical stats, and wizards cast spells and need intelligence. They are building to an archetypical character, not their class/role. These are the players that make high dex fighters (meaning 14-16), get weapon finesse, and one-hand a rapier.
I would say that in order to make a list of what is powerful, and what isn't, you would first have to select a character level. At the lowest levels, the martial characters are generally superior to casters. This trend evens out in the mid levels, then reverses in the higher levels.
Many times the "default assumptions" of the game are thrown out the window - especially in the later AP's. Some encounters don't give you a chance to cast mirror image, freedom of movement, etc. before you end up in some tentacle grapple swallow whole situation. Sometimes encounters start with everyone in the party taking damage, and healing is needed to keep PCs from getting one-shotted. I think too often people confuse kicking ass 75% of the time, then being useless 25% of the time with well rounded power.
I would also add that for inexperienced players defense is often more important then offense. The guy with full plate, shield, and lots of HP is often going to seem like the most powerful character.
Finally, I would say that the only classes that are really at the low end of the scale would be rogues, monks, and TWF rangers. Super easy to make a very weak character, very hard to make a mid powered character. Any character with full BAB who has decent defenses and can do archery or melee without five rounds of buffing could reach a 7 in my book.
{. . .} It is why people who die in a video game tend to blame the computer glitching or cheating, rather than accepting that they are the problem. Human brains do not want to admit to inadequacy.It's easier to do with video games ("It wouldn't let me jump!"), especially since often enough there ARE minor glitches or input delay, so it's easy to go "Yeah, it did THAT again..." even when you screwed up that time.
Here...you don't really have anything to blame but yourself.
Well, you COULD have a GM glitch . . . .
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By day two a wizard player that isn't actually stupid is going to prepare all his non-specialty slots with things useful in combat. Worst reasonable case is something like taking burning hands and magic missile and using them at the wrong times, not taking floating disk and magic aura and failing to find any use for them at all.I reiterate that the difference between spontaneous and prepared floors isn't in knowing which spells to learn, but rather in the added complication of having to guess how many of each spell to prepare each day. In the same way as a melee character's player knows to get something like power attack, toughness, or dodge, a caster character's player knows to get at least one spell they can imagine using in combat, usually a damage spell.
And "leave open spell slots" isn't a valid argument. Players operating at the effectiveness floor don't know to do that.
My experience, and possibly mine alone, is that beginner wizard players are kids in the candy store. They cannot bring themselves to prepare the same spell twice because it gives them less selection. They will prepare one of every spell they can that they think is interesting or cool. And they will keep doing that until they have used every spell they like in an effective manner at least once. Usually they end up leveling too fast to keep up with that.
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Personally I think Class Features should be the ones evaluated and not classes, because even tought classes stand out they depend in great part from its features. Using archetypes to get better features essentially makes the class better. For example i would rate 10 for lvl 9 spells feature but probably a 5 for bonus wizards feats