Chaotic Neutral....Lawful Good for Money


Rules Questions


Could you have a chaotic neutral character, who in a public setting appear lawful good? Saving people, turning in bad guys, following all of the laws of an area to a T, if he knew that by doing so it would result in financial gain?


That seems more like the actions of a true neutral character rather than a chaotic neutral character.
To me, if you are a chaotic character, then you are so because you either like chaos or because you abhore rules that you either don't understand or agree with (probably a combination of those options).
I'd have no problem with a T/N character doing what he thinks is best for himself, whether that is rampant murdering of the rich or if it is running around adopting the personna of a hero.

Others might disagree with me, and alignment is one of those subjects where endless discussions happen. Personally in my groups we do put an alignment on our sheets, but the GM is free to change it as he sees fit (as long as it doesn't happen too often), because the big reason we put alignments on our sheets are mostly to know which spells will affect us and which wont.

Grand Lodge

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Sure.

You are not restricted in what actions you can, or cannot take, by your alignment.

Make enough actions that would be considered outside of your alignment, you may have a slight alignment shift.

It's that simple.


idk. i think a bounty hunter who up to presneting his catch by all that the law require( cuffed ,jaed only or what-not) but DURING the hunt uses any dirty trick out side the book. if he only make pretend when infront of the law ,s oas not to loose the bounty. id allow it. as long as once the facade is over he treat it like getting a shot.

Grand Lodge

What?

Grand Lodge

I think I agree with Lifat. It's not likely a chaotic neutral individual could sustain a plan so elaborate and contrary to his own impulses long enough to convince others, but a neutral character could stick to it.

Liberty's Edge

redviiper wrote:
Could you have a chaotic neutral character, who in a public setting appear lawful good? Saving people, turning in bad guys, following all of the laws of an area to a T, if he knew that by doing so it would result in financial gain?

Sure. Pretty easily.

In order to remain Chaotic, he'd probably need to do some Chaotic stuff when nobody was looking, but the purely mercenary motivation is enough on its own to keep him from really being Good (you can have a Good mercenary, but he needs to care about things other than money as well as the money).

Grand Lodge

Actually, he can.

Maybe, after awhile, and a lot more of these acts, he may have an alignment shift towards CG, or N, but nothing,

nothing,

stops him from doing it.

Nothing.

Liberty's Edge

Starglim wrote:
I think I agree with Lifat. It's not likely a chaotic neutral individual could sustain a plan so elaborate and contrary to his own impulses long enough to convince others, but a neutral character could stick to it.

Huh? Chaotic =/= No Self-Control. Or an inability to plan in the long term. Witness the number of Antipaladins who've passed themselves off as Paladins in the vicinity of the Worldwound, for example.

Grand Lodge

Who plays with these weird roleplay restrictions?

These don't exist within the rules.

Where do they come from?

Grand Lodge

blackbloodtroll wrote:

Who plays with these weird roleplay restrictions?

These don't exist within the rules.

Where do they come from?

Lets translate that properly.

"Who doesn't play the way I do?"


Chaotic character do not need to suddenly jump on one leg or spur nonsense to remain chaotic. That is Chaotic Stupid.
Chaotic character is not insane character. Chaotic character values his freedom - but he understand that attacking guard that represents Law (that he presumaby hates so much, wich is not the case anyway) will evenrually lead to his capture and loss of said freedom.
If ferryman say that ferry able to transport only 4 people, chaotic character will not jump 5th and scream "You dont tell me what to do!". He can but it will be stupid (and he understand it). But if there is curfew in the village and guard require everyone to be in houses past some time? Well that is THEIR OPINION, it is not fact of boat's buoyancy. So chaotic character would pretty much love to sneak past to deny their arbitrary laws (or may restrain his urge, if punishment is boling of all his family in oil).
Chaotic Neutral is not Greedy Neutral. CN cleric of Gorum might prefer to fight thing rather than loot treasure, while CN priestess of of Calistria might prefer to do kinky stuff, or discard treasure to get vengeance on someone.
Chaotic Neutral character will not stab his companion in the back to steal his treasure, but he might do so if he feels that he gets less than everybody else (but its not like CN fighter will attack wizard after they found magic staff, as he understand that when they find magic sword wizard will have no claim to it).
Chaotic Neutral characer can betray his comrades on his own accord, but that is as likely to happen as Lawful Neutral cavalier betrays his comrades and attacks them because nobleman he pledged to says so.

Chaotic character can pretend to be good to gain something. If he starts to feel pleasure from helping other he may change to Chaotic Good. If he starts to feel glee from pretending and decieving those fools to swindle them from their money he may change to Chaotic Evil.


blackbloodtroll wrote:

Actually, he can.

Maybe, after awhile, and a lot more of these acts, he may have an alignment shift towards CG, or N, but nothing,

nothing,

stops him from doing it.

Nothing.

I wasn't claiming that alignment should ever restrict your actions! In that we are on the same page. But what I am saying is that if you do enough lawful acts in order to act as though you are lawful, it seems like a neutral character (on the lawful - chaotic axis) and you would slowly turn neutral.

Deadmanwalking wrote:
Huh? Chaotic =/= No Self-Control. Or an inability to plan in the long term. Witness the number of Antipaladins who've passed themselves off as Paladins in the vicinity of the Worldwound, for example.

Chaotic characters can do elaborate plans, but I'd say that alignment has to both be about intent and actual action. So even if your intention is chaos then committing a lot of lawful acts for a long time would have an effect on your alignment.

DarkPhoenixx wrote:

Chaotic character do not need to suddenly jump on one leg or spur nonsense to remain chaotic. That is Chaotic Stupid.
Chaotic character is not insane character. Chaotic character values his freedom - but he understand that attacking guard that represents Law (that he presumaby hates so much, wich is not the case anyway) will evenrually lead to his capture and loss of said freedom.
If ferryman say that ferry able to transport only 4 people, chaotic character will not jump 5th and scream "You dont tell me what to do!". He can but it will be stupid (and he understand it). But if there is curfew in the village and guard require everyone to be in houses past some time? Well that is THEIR OPINION, it is not fact of boat's buoyancy. So chaotic character would pretty much love to sneak past to deny their arbitrary laws (or may restrain his urge, if punishment is boling of all his family in oil).
Chaotic Neutral is not Greedy Neutral. CN cleric of Gorum might prefer to fight thing rather than loot treasure, while CN priestess of of Calistria might prefer to do kinky stuff, or discard treasure to get vengeance on someone.
Chaotic Neutral character will not stab his companion in the back to steal his treasure, but he might do so if he feels that he gets less than everybody else (but its not like CN fighter will attack wizard after they found magic staff, as he understand that when they find magic sword wizard will have no claim to it).
Chaotic Neutral characer can betray his comrades on his own accord, but that is as likely to happen as Lawful Neutral cavalier betrays his comrades and attacks them because nobleman he pledged to says so.

Chaotic character can pretend to be good to gain something. If he starts to feel pleasure from helping other he may change to Chaotic Good. If he starts to feel glee from pretending and decieving those fools to swindle them from their money he may change to Chaotic Evil.

I agree that chaotic characters aren't just running around doing chaotic things for chaos sake. They could certainly do it, but that is not the only way to be chaotic. I completely agree with you that chaotic characters can live in society and respect the laws that make sense to them and ignore the laws that don't make sense to them (and try not to get caught of course). But I do believe that alignment should both be based on the intention behind the action and the result of the action itself. If you commit enough actions that promote lawfulness then over time I'd probably judge you to be neutral even if your intention behind them was slightly different.

Liberty's Edge

Lifat wrote:
Chaotic characters can do elaborate plans, but I'd say that alignment has to both be about intent and actual action. So even if your intention is chaos then committing a lot of lawful acts for a long time would have an effect on your alignment.

Right, which is why I note the need to perform Chaotic acts when he's 'off the clock' to maintain his Chaotic Alignment. :)


Although I wouldn't consider him Chaotic Neutral, I keep thinking Booster Gold...


LazarX wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:

Who plays with these weird roleplay restrictions?

These don't exist within the rules.

Where do they come from?

Lets translate that properly.

"Who doesn't play the way I do?"

Better translation:

"Given this is the RULES forum, what RULES regarding actions and alignment are in question here?"


You can probably justify about anything in the loose system that is alignment. However, some things are more likely than others.

Most chaotic neutral characters wouldn't care a whole lot about Public Perception, they are fierce individualists after all, so why would he spend such an effort trying to appear to be a paragon of virtue? Most chaotic neutral characters are more sort term gratification seekers than long term planners, so what is the motivation for the deception.

The anarchistic tendencies of a typical chaotic neutral would more likely lead them to revel in the bad boy status than try to blend in and hide on it, and while they would like money, they would most likely prefer an alternate way to acquire it, rather than building an elaborate long term ruse.

All that said, even within each alignment there is a lot of room for different personalities and motivations. You could construct something that would fit, but I would look more into the motivations and ethics of the character and see if chaotic neutral is really the best fit.


Dave Justus wrote:
Most chaotic neutral characters wouldn't care a whole lot about Public Perception, they are fierce individualists after all, so why would he spend such an effort trying to appear to be a paragon of virtue?

Chaotics are very much about the Cult of Personality as long as they are the personality.


Champions of Balance listed that many Chaotic Neutral characters have a strong sense of personall ethics and/or personal codes they abide by. They do not like laws but they may fetch those branded by it if it fits their convictions/motivations.

For example, a chaotic neutral character may not like people who oppress children. he may act outside the law and go to greater lenght to accomplish his goal than someone who is lawful good who would most likely try to bring the individual back for a fair trial unless they found the acts were pure madness without any hope of redemption.

Once again, its a matter of ethics, values, perception and beliefs.

Grand Lodge

LazarX wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:

Who plays with these weird roleplay restrictions?

These don't exist within the rules.

Where do they come from?

Lets translate that properly.

"Who doesn't play the way I do?"

No.

I asked about the Rules regarding this restriction.

This, being a Rules question, in the Rules Forum.

If these restrictions are not outlined in the Rules, is it so wrong to question where they come from?

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