|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
In another rogue thread, I suggested that the most quintessentially "roguish" thing to do is to pretend to be something you're not. To that end, I decided to try and come up with some rogue talents that would let a rogue steal some abilities from other classes. Here's what I've come up with so far; feel free to add your own ideas or comment on mine.
The rogue gains Brew Potion and Throw Anything as bonus feats. Choose a number of 1st-level alchemist formulae equal to 3+the rogue's Int. The rogue may brew potions of those formulae as though she had a formulae book containing them. In addition, the rogue adds her Int bonus to all damage rolls made with thrown weapons, including the splash damage (if any). The rogue must have at least 11 Int to select this talent.
Choose a rage power that the rogue qualifies for, using her rogue level as her effective barbarian level. The rogue gains that rage power. This does not grant the rogue the ability to rage. If the selected rage power is usable once per rage, the rogue may use it once per day. If the selected rage power is always active when the barbarian rages, the rogue may use it for a number of rounds per day equal to 3 + her Con modifier. The rogue may also use this rage power during any rounds of rage she has from additional sources, or while under any effect that simulates a barbarian's rage (such as a skald's ragesong or the Rage spell).
Choose a cavalier order. The rogue gains the challenge class ability, and the skill bonuses, challenge bonuses, and 2nd-level Order ability of that order. The rogue's melee attacks against the target of her challenge deal Sneak Attack damage instead of the bonus damage normally granted by the challenge class ability. The rogue is not required to follow the edicts of this order to gain these bonuses, but gains a +4 bonus on Bluff, Disguise, Diplomacy, Intimidate, and Sense Motive checks relating to his order as long as she is not known to have violated her order's edicts recently.
If the rogue already has levels in cavalier, or gains levels of cavalier later, she must choose the same order.
The rogue gains the ability to channel energy using a holy symbol, using her rogue level as her effective cleric level. Channeling energy in this way is a full-round action, and requires a DC15 Knowledge: Religion check and a DC20 Use Magic Device check. Whether the rogue channels positive or negative energy depends not on her own alignment, but on the alignment of the deity whose holy symbol she displays. A rogue may not use a neutral deity's holy symbol to channel energy.
The rogue must not have any levels in a class that gains the channel energy class feature to select this rogue talent. If the rogue later gains the channel energy class feature from another class, she loses this rogue talent and gains Extra Channel as a bonus feat.
The rogue gains the wild empathy, woodland, stride, and trackless step class features. The rogue's version of woodland stride and trackless step function in urban as well as natural surroundings, and apply to any sort of difficult terrain one might reasonably expect to find in those terrains. In addition, the rogue gets a +2 insight bonus to Knowledge: Nature checks and all Wisdom-based skill checks.
The rogue gains a +1 bonus to her BAB and proficiency in one light or one-handed martial melee weapon of her choice. In addition, the rogue treats the max dex bonus of any armor she wears as +1 higher, and her total ACP as 1 lower (to a minimum of 0).
The rogue gains the stern gaze, track, and cunning initiative class features, using her rogue level as her effective inquisitor level.
Actually there's a rogue talent that lets you throw bombs now!
Granting a bonus to base attack bonus is unprecedented and isn't a great house rule as a result. Giving rogues a talent that copies weapon training, however, is something you could look at.
The rogue talents that give multiple class features for a single talent are also too good; one talent, one ability is your best best.
Rogues don't really need trackless step because they can take favored terrain as a rogue talent, and that makes you untrackable in your chosen terrain.
I don't like the idea of giving rogues the cleric's only real defining class feature. A better option would be a talent that allowed a rogue to gain a 1st-level domain power, which would be a more fitting (and more customizable) gift from a god anyway.
Giving the rogue challenge is WAY too powerful, even if its only once per day. Giving the rogue an order ability feels more on-par with other talents, but some orders are very unfriendly towards roguish types. I think expert trainer would be a better class feature to pilfer from the cavalier, and its one that is much better suited to the rogue's toolkit.
Giving the rogue a rage power is a neat idea, but there are too many what-ifs that'll need explaining, such as, "What happens if I choose lesser spirit totem?" Since rogue and barbarian already have a lot of overlap, you're better off not crossing those two.
|
Granting a bonus to base attack bonus is unprecedented and isn't a great house rule as a result. Giving rogues a talent that copies weapon training, however, is something you could look at.
Where else are the innovations going to come from?
I don't like the idea of giving rogues the cleric's only real defining class feature. A better option would be a talent that allowed a rogue to gain a 1st-level domain power, which would be a more fitting (and more customizable) gift from a god anyway.
I don't think it's supposed to be a gift from a god - the Rogue is faking it so well that it actually works. It could be like the Razmiran Priest prestige class's channeling, which offers "temporary healing" (you could do the same with channeling to harm - if the damage isn't fatal, it evaporates after a certain period). Make it weaker than what a Cleric of equivalent level could do, and you're in pretty good shape.
Giving the rogue challenge is WAY too powerful, even if its only once per day. Giving the rogue an order ability feels more on-par with other talents, but some orders are very unfriendly towards roguish types. I think expert trainer would be a better class feature to pilfer from the cavalier, and its one that is much better suited to the rogue's toolkit.
I agree that the Cavalier version is quite overpowered (I'm assuming that all of these Talents are of the "Advanced" variety, anyways). How about just giving the 2nd-level Order ability, plus the Order-based secondary effect of the Challenge (for example, if you were to imitate the Order of the Lion, you could, once per day, designate a foe against whom you get a progressive dodge bonus to armor class, or you could combine a full attack with a free bull rush or trip maneuver against one adversary per day if you were ripping off the Order of the Seal, but in neither case would you get the basic damage bonus or any other benefits - or penalties? - of the Cavalier's Challenge)?
|
i like the concept very much.
what i see as the best use for these talents is not so much to increase the rogue's metrics, but to expand her toolkit.
so, I agree that a straight bonus to BAB would be not a good use of a talent, for example, but I like the idea of being able to grant the rogue a limited use of, say, Bombs or Rage (I think in the order of no more than half the effectiveness and/or duration as compared to the Alchemist or Barbarian), as well as opening up the doors for future use of rogue talents to grab Discoveries and Rage Powers.
for example:
Alchemist Bombs (new talent):
A rogue with this talent gains the ability to create a number of bombs per day equal to her Intelligence modifier and to throw them proficiently, adding her Intelligence bonus to damage, per the bombs alchemist class feature. Her bombs inflict a base of 1d6 damage, +1d6 per three rogue levels. In addition, she may hereafter select an alchemist discovery which modifies her bombs whenever she gains a rogue talent.
Barbarian's Rage (new talent):
A rogue with this talent may, as a swift action, enter a rage per the barbarian's class feature for a number of rounds per day equal to her rogue level, but only gains a +2 bonus to her strength and constitution and a +1 bonus to will saves while taking the usual -2 penalty to her AC. In addition, she may hereafter select a rage power whenever she gains a rogue talent.
Where else are the innovations going to come from?
Creating a talent that every rogue would take in droves is not innovation. Its wish fulfillment.
I don't think it's supposed to be a gift from a god - the Rogue is faking it so well that it actually works. It could be like the Razmiran Priest prestige class's channeling, which offers "temporary healing" (you could do the same with channeling to harm - if the damage isn't fatal, it evaporates after a certain period). Make it weaker than what a Cleric of equivalent level could do, and you're in pretty good shape.
If you are actually channeling energy via a holy symbol, you're not really faking it.
|
|
Where else are the innovations going to come from?Creating a talent that every rogue would take in droves is not innovation. Its wish fulfillment.
Read what I said and what it was in response to more carefully. I was referring to the general principle of being willing to do something unprecedented, and cynically suggesting that home games are now more likely to generate such things than big developers like Paizo.
I have written a few of my own. Lemme post them:
Adrenaline Rush (Ex): The rogue gains the ability to enter a rage-like state in much the same way as a barbarian. This functions as the barbarian's rage class feature except that the rogue gains a +2 morale bonus to strength and constitution instead of a +4 bonus. Additionally, the rogue gains a +5 foot increase to her base movement speed while using Adrenaline Rush. The rogue gains a number of rounds of rage equal to 3 plus her Constitution modifier. The Rogue gains 1 additional round of rage per 2 rogue levels past level 2. In addition, whenever the rogue would gain a new rogue talent, she may instead choose a barbarian rage power with a Barbarian Level equal to half her Rogue level. If the rogue gains the rage class feature from any other source, this talent stacks with those rounds of rage.
Adrenaline Rush, Improved: The Rogue gains additional rage rounds equal to her Rogue level. These rage rounds stack with those gained from Adrenaline Rush. The Rogue’s base movement speed increases by 10 feet while under the effects of Adrenaline Rush. While Raging, the Rogue does not suffer the effects of fatigue.
Mage Hunter, Improved: Gain Spellbreaker as a bonus feat. Requires Mage Hunter.
Magic, Moderate (Sp): A rogue with this talent gains the ability to cast two 1st-level spell from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. These spells can be cast four times per day in any combination as a spell-like ability and grant one additional use of the Minor Magic Rogue Talent or a new 0-level spell. The caster level for this ability is equal to the rogue's level. The save DC for this spell is 11 + the rogue's Charisma or Intelligence modifier. The rogue must have a Charisma or Intelligence of at least 11 to select this talent. A rogue must have the minor magic rogue talent before choosing this talent.
Magic, Major (Sp): A rogue with this talent gains the ability to cast a single 2nd-level spell from the sorcerer/wizard spell list three times per day as a spell-like ability and grants one additional use of the Moderate Magic Rogue Talent or a new 1st-level spell. The caster level for this ability is equal to the rogue's level. The save DC for this spell is 12 + the rogue's Charisma or Intelligence modifier. The rogue must have a Charisma or Intelligence of at least 12 to select this talent. A rogue must have the moderate magic rogue talent before choosing this talent.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I very much like the idea, but as written they're too good for a single talent and getting a bit redundant for advanced talents: split into two.
+1 BAB for a rogue isn't really a problem, as the rogue always has a lower BAB than his class level anyway. So it can't make him better than a fighter (unless he's actually a slayer).
Adam B's are pretty good, except that the fighter ones are a bit flavourless. IMHO the iconic abilities of the fighter are armour/weapon training and bravery.
|
|
Thanks for the feedback everyone!
I had meant for all of them to be basic talents, and then for each one there'd be an advanced talent that would give the rogue a little more of the class feature it's stealing. For example, the rogue could copy the Cavalier's skill bonuses and 2nd-level Order ability as early as level 2, and then at Level 10, an advanced talent could give her the 8th-level ability.
I wasn't aware of the talents that grant bombs or favored terrain, but I am glad they exist. I considered having the Alchemist talent grant the rogue bombs. I declined to do a "mock gunslinger" talent because I know one already exists.
For the most part, I wasn't so much trying to just copy other classes' iconic abilities, but for the rogue to put her own spin on them. That's why I gave her a rage power but not the ability to rage. Its why I gave her the skill bonuses from the cavalier's ability and tried to substitute the bonus challenge damage for sneak attack damage. It's also why the fighter ability gave me so much trouble. Here's my second try:
Choose a weapon group from the fighter's weapon training list. The rogue gains a +1 bonus on all attack and damage rolls with weapons from that group. In addition, whenever she deals sneak attack damage with a weapon from that group, she deals an additional 1d6 damage.
I feel like Weapon Training isn't as powerful for rogues as it is for fighters, since fighters are proficient in martial weapons and have more options to choose from, and have the benefit of full BAB and the option of Weapon Specialization.
may wanna hav ethe weapon training grant proficiency in stuff as well (maybe one thing from that category?) or else thats a whole lotta useless for most rogues.
I very much like the idea, but as written they're too good for a single talent and getting a bit redundant for advanced talents: split into two.
+1 BAB for a rogue isn't really a problem, as the rogue always has a lower BAB than his class level anyway. So it can't make him better than a fighter (unless he's actually a slayer).
Adam B's are pretty good, except that the fighter ones are a bit flavourless. IMHO the iconic abilities of the fighter are armour/weapon training and bravery.
thank you very much for those words. And Yeah, I recognize that the mage hunter line is boring. They were originally written by me without the intention of copying the fighter, but when I wrote my response I realized that these were the only talents I had written that used a fighter-unique ability. I am not proud of the mage hunter talents, but I definitely love all of the other ones I wrote.
|
|
What other classes should a rogue be able to mimic? I was hesitant to do a monk talent, because several Ninja Tricks already have that covered. Likewise, I wasn't sure how to do a bard talent, or a sorcerer talent that didn't A) overlap with the inevitable wizard talent, or B) make the rogue feel like a worse bard.
I also wasn't sure how to do a paladin, summoner, witch, or oracle talent at all. Any ideas?
What other classes should a rogue be able to mimic? I was hesitant to do a monk talent, because several Ninja Tricks already have that covered. Likewise, I wasn't sure how to do a bard talent, or a sorcerer talent that didn't A) overlap with the inevitable wizard talent, or B) make the rogue feel like a worse bard.
I also wasn't sure how to do a paladin, summoner, witch, or oracle talent at all. Any ideas?
I think bardic knowledge might be a good starting point for a talent. Maybe at a rate of 1/4th your rogue level instead of half your bard level?
+1 per 3 rogue levels seems a nice balance for a 'stolen' bardic knowledge talent.
Also a note for these types of talents: you might wanna make some of them mutually exclusive--cant get an animal companion or familiar if you took a mount talent, cant get a paladin weapon bond if you chose an arcane pool, etc. To prevent double-dipping class resources in headachy ways.
Heck, one could take a page from the brawler and give them a per-day resource that they can spend to rip off other classes as needed for X amount of time (3.5's chameleon or factotem did something similar if memory serves)