Last time I tried running a Pathfinder adventure path I ran it with 20 point buy. It was a bit rocky but by the time we finished the AP they were steamrolling over most encounters (I did find a sweet spot at one point by running them 1 level lower than the AP recommended).
I originally really wanted to run with a 15 point buy system but everyone seemed to agree that this wouldn't cut down on the power of the characters but instead cut down on the versatility of them. They'd be more 2 dimensional rather than "fully" fleshed out characters.
I've been thinking about what changes I can make so I don't get a table full of high powered characters again. I was thinking about using this point buy system: 15 points but all races get a +2 racial to an ability score of their choice (it cannot be on an ability score that they already have a bonus for).
Do people think this would curb the power level compared to a standard 20 point buy character while allowing them a bit more versatility than a standard 15 point buy character? Or am I just creating extra bookwork for no real benefit?
Give them a 10 point buy with an additional point per level. In the end they end up with 5 +1s and 30 points across ability scores.
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What I go with for this situation is actually 25 point-buy, but with the following restrictions:
No stat over 16 before racial modifiers, only one stat below 10 before racial modifiers, and that no lower than 8.
That keeps raw power from getting out of hand while allowing a broad base of good scores. You could also do something similar with 20 point-buy if you wanted.
If a player knows how to make you hate life with 20 point buy, then he can also do it with 15. AP's are pre-written, but they are not one size fits all, and you as a GM will have to adjust them depending on your group.
Give them the 20 point buy. I also don't even use XP. The books tells you where to level them up at. This allows you to also make encounters more difficult by adding more enemies or just improving existing enemies without having them level up too fast due to the increased CR.
I also dont care if they steamroll "normal" encounters, but I do try to make my boss fights a challenge.
PS: The extra +2 is close enough to a 20 point buy that it is not going to be a difference maker. That is why I said just give them the 20 point buy.
The way to limit the power of point buy is to remove or severely restrict buy downs. I have used 20 point buy with NO buy downs to very good effect. It seems to be a sweet spot at least the way my group plays. Although I have used 15 point buy with no buy downs before as it makes 20 stats impossible at first level.
Don't point buy? Roll the scores old school.
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Don't point buy? Roll the scores old school.
Brilliant.
Fixes the problem by having half the party be roided up super gods, and the other half Tiny Tim's twice as sickly cousin.
Surely that is a preferable alternative.
What I go with for this situation is actually 25 point-buy, but with the following restrictions:
No stat over 16 before racial modifiers, only one stat below 10 before racial modifiers, and that no lower than 8.
That keeps raw power from getting out of hand while allowing a broad base of good scores. You could also do something similar with 20 point-buy if you wanted.
Interesting, Deadman, I use the exact same guidelines with a 15 point buy for about half the campaigns that I run. I also give them the option of the elite array if they prefer.
The other half of the campaigns that I run are at 10 pt buy.
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Nothing about any point buy value inherently makes characters less interesting or fewer "dimensional." Run the PB value that you and your players enjoy. Personally I prefer 15 myself. I was a 20 guy until I tried 15 and realized it wasn't a big deal. Either way your high level power is less from stats and more from build so adjusting stats won't have a deep effect there.
Rynjin, there are ways to ameliorate the effect you describe. I'm in a Skull&Shackles game where we rolled stats, but the roll couldn't end up above 20 or below 10 points buy. One player wrote a small program to generate the stats behind the scenes so no one saw any "god" or "tiny tim" characters that were thrown away.
Another good way to do rolls is to have each player roll a stat set, then let each of them pick any set from the whole group, duplicates allowed. No accidental disparity in power, and often they won't all pick the same set. This tends to have slightly above average stats sue to picking from multiple rolls, however.
I realize that point buy, high or lov can be a big deal. But in my experience the guys that make ledt than optimal characters can do that just as well on 15 as on 25, and the other way around. No matter the point buy, high level characters are gonna be powerfull. The extra +2 is a quite good idea, in some way, but it will for most characters be better than 5 more build points.
15 points is not terrible but you May see mostly characters that use a stat they have race bonus in.
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The issue I have with 15 points is MaD classes suffer alot more. Makes it hard to pull of a fewcclasses with 15 points.
Here is a skinny version of my house rules if I DM.
20 point buy
PFS health rules or rolled health (choice made 1st level..no changes) you get a 1 that is luck for you. But lets the player decide luck verses average.
No character can have more then 3 craft feats..... If a class like wizard gets scribe scroll that counts to your limit.
No leadership feat
No master summoner archetype, gunslinger must be approved
All sling feats work for slingstaff
No 3rd party material without approval....very strict on this.
Trapfinding trait is reclassified to Basic Trait. It does not take a subtype like combat. I want this to open up party make ups more than need a rogue or investigator. Trap b@@@& should not force someone into a class.
Don't point buy? Roll the scores old school.Brilliant.
Fixes the problem by having half the party be roided up super gods, and the other half Tiny Tim's twice as sickly cousin.
Surely that is a preferable alternative.
You still put rerolling limits on preventing super-suck. Honestly, the limits listed in the beginner box's character generation section is, I've found, very good. Roll 4D6, drop lowest, as long as your highest roll is a 14 or better, and the sum of all your modifiers is at least a +4, its good to go. If not, reroll all 6. Of course, if you feel this is too weak, you can boost the reroll thresholds a bit, but the randomness, I feel, really does make the character. But I'm very against min-maxing in general.
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Trapfinding trait is reclassified to Basic Trait. It does not take a subtype like combat. I want this to open up party make ups more than need a rogue or investigator. Trap b@&@# should not force someone into a class.
You do realize that in Pathfinder the only things that requires Trapfinding is disarming magic traps?
Any character can detect any trap by searching with Perception. Trapfinding just gives a bonus to this check.
Any character trained in Disable Device can try to disarm a mundane trap.
So Trapfinding is already nice but not necessary.
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What I go with for this situation is actually 25 point-buy, but with the following restrictions:
No stat over 16 before racial modifiers, only one stat below 10 before racial modifiers, and that no lower than 8.
That keeps raw power from getting out of hand while allowing a broad base of good scores. You could also do something similar with 20 point-buy if you wanted.
Interesting, Deadman, I use the exact same guidelines with a 15 point buy for about half the campaigns that I run. I also give them the option of the elite array if they prefer.
The other half of the campaigns that I run are at 10 pt buy.
Yeah, that definitely works, I just personally prefer things a trifle higher powered than that.
I feel like 25 point-buy with those restrictions approximates optimized 15 point-buy, which lets me use it easily for APs, while simultaneously allowing things like the Charisma 14 Orc Barbarian Princess (okay, my making Orcs to have a penalty to only one of Wis and Cha, their choice, helped out there, too) in my current Pathfinder game. I enjoy games where people can easily afford things like that, and be generally well-rounded and heroic in terms of stats. Also, as a side-benefit, it narrows the gap between SAD and MAD classes a bit, which is nice.
I favor the idea of a fairly generous Point Buy, but with a maximum upper limit on any one stat. This makes it harder to create 'win the battle in one round' characters, and easier to make competent characters without dumping stats.
What I go with for this situation is actually 25 point-buy, but with the following restrictions:
No stat over 16 before racial modifiers, only one stat below 10 before racial modifiers, and that no lower than 8.
That keeps raw power from getting out of hand while allowing a broad base of good scores. You could also do something similar with 20 point-buy if you wanted.
Interesting, Deadman, I use the exact same guidelines with a 15 point buy for about half the campaigns that I run. I also give them the option of the elite array if they prefer.
The other half of the campaigns that I run are at 10 pt buy.
Yeah, that definitely works, I just personally prefer things a trifle higher powered than that.
I feel like 25 point-buy with those restrictions approximates optimized 15 point-buy, which lets me use it easily for APs, while simultaneously allowing things like the Charisma 14 Orc Barbarian Princess (okay, my making Orcs to have a penalty to only one of Wis and Cha, their choice, helped out there, too) in my current Pathfinder game. I enjoy games where people can easily afford things like that, and be generally well-rounded and heroic in terms of stats. Also, as a side-benefit, it narrows the gap between SAD and MAD classes a bit, which is nice.
It is an interesting approach to the 25 pt buy. I might give it a try when I run Way of the Wicked or FMG's Throne of Night (I got tired of waiting on McBride and wrote and ran my own version to level 20 already).
Thanks everyone. You've confirmed that 15 point buy and 20 point buy don't make a difference and the +2 bonus is effectively just recreating 20 point buy.
So how about this as an alternate:
Your scores start at 8, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10 (arrange to suit) and you get 20 points to increase them up to a maximum of 16 (before racial modifiers are added). No buy downs are allowed.
It's not quite 20 point buy (effectively an 18 point buy) and it tones down Wizards/Sorcerers/Witches (who almost always min/max to get that 20 in their primary stat) without having a major impact on the vast majority of classes who typically cap themselves at 16 unless being run by a strong min/max enthusiast. MAD classes are hindered somewhat in that they can't buy down to 7 to help boost their other stats, but they shouldn't be too far behind the rest of the party given everyone has a cap of 16.
Do people think this would have the desired effect?
I realise ability scores are a minor element for creating particularly powerful characters, but it's a starting point. My goal is to reign in the worst character builds without stifling the creativity and enjoyment of my players. It's also not motivated by trying to limit the power of my player's characters, but instead provide an even baseline so that I can better gauge what effect combats will have (i.e. find the sweet spot between TPK and cakewalk).
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That also wont work. Your problem is not really point buy. The players optimization is to high for the AP.
Another agreement with Wraithstrike and Kestral. The issue, if you can call it that, is player skill at optimization. Limiting points just means they'll move on to something else, taking the path of most-possible power within the limits of the point-buy.
Remember to smack on those templates to the creatures. Want that ogre mage to hold up against the evocation wizard? Hit them up with a half-fiend template to hold up against fireballs. Add extra monsters so they have the upper hand in action economy.
The Monster Codex works great, offering several classic monsters with multiple permutations in class levels added to them.
you need to up actual encounter difficulty to challenge your players, because they're likely to work around whatever gimping of them you use, especially something relatively minor.
Upping the difficulty isn't the problem. I can do that and have. Everytime I either didn't up it enough or it TPK'd. I'm looking for that sweet spot. Although do stats really make no difference? Everyone I know seems to agonise over getting the exactly right array, with some deciding to dump 2 stats down to 7 just to get the other stat(s) that little bit higher.
give me a high point buy, I play Magus. Low point buy, I play Barbarian.
That's what I'm trying to avoid.
But if we assume that I'm equally good at building those two classes, the point difference isn't going to change a whole lot.
Sure. Although I've seen some pretty ridiculous stats in order to eke out a 20 or multiple 18s. I'd like to discourage that without stopping people from playing a Magus. I realise you'll find other ways to optimise (e.g. Vital strike + improved critical + shocking grasp), but it's only intended as a starting point
Although do stats really make no difference? Everyone I know seems to agonise over getting the exactly right array, with some deciding to dump 2 stats down to 7 just to get the other stat(s) that little bit higher.
They don't make NO difference, but they make a smaller difference than anything else compared to the game as a whole.
However, they play a big difference in what type of character you can play.
Extremely MAD character concepts like a Champion of Irori (Str/Dex/Cha/Wis/Con required) are more viable (even possible in this extreme case, I wouldn't even ATTEMPT it with 15 PB) with higher point buys. Conversely, SAD characters receive a smaller benefit. They LIKE having other stats, but only NEED 1. Your Wizard having a 14 Str instead of 10 isn't going to make a big of a difference as your Monk being able to afford a 16-18 Wis and everything else he needs to properly function.
Which is why I usually use 25 PB in my games.
you need to up actual encounter difficulty to challenge your players, because they're likely to work around whatever gimping of them you use, especially something relatively minor.Upping the difficulty isn't the problem. I can do that and have. Everytime I either didn't up it enough or it TPK'd. I'm looking for that sweet spot. Although do stats really make no difference? Everyone I know seems to agonise over getting the exactly right array, with some deciding to dump 2 stats down to 7 just to get the other stat(s) that little bit higher.
This means you need to get a little better at tweaking so you can give them the difficulty you desire or bad dice rolls messed up your plans. I think you should analyze your tweaks while keeping the dice rolls in mind so you have a better picture on what went wrong.
Another possibility would be to award extra points for knowingly doing something that is obviously non-optimal, like building a Qlippoth-spawned Tiefling Demon-hunting Warrior Oracle (shameless plug here). I wouldn't even try this with less than a 25 point buy, and am actually considering instead building as some other class if I can figure out how to make it work thematically. (Of course, I have yet to get a chance to try it at all, but the concept is there; IRL has slowed me down but I intend to get there eventually.)
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For the record, Vital Strike won't double the damage of Shocking Grasp (it's not part of the weapon damage) and the Magus can get Improved Critical as Keen off their Arcane Pool. But that's not the point here. The point here is that this:
Would handle your goal. I can build a heck of a Magus with that. Or a heck of a Barbarian. Or Cleric, or almost anything else (I'm still not trying Champion of Irori, but that's about it).What I go with for this situation is actually 25 point-buy, but with the following restrictions:
No stat over 16 before racial modifiers, only one stat below 10 before racial modifiers, and that no lower than 8.
That keeps raw power from getting out of hand while allowing a broad base of good scores. You could also do something similar with 20 point-buy if you wanted.
Thanks. Glad people like it. :)
And Champion of Irori is really tricky. There are a couple of valid builds at 25 point-buy, but only a couple and they're not easy to pull off.
But if I want to build a Wizard... well, drop ten points for that 16 Int, and then maybe 16 Con and 14 Dex? Take a +Int -Str or Cha race and I'm set... but while I can survive a bit better than your standard 20 point buy Wizard, I'm not any better at dominating brains.
Yup. Definitely part of the point of that arrangement. You can also afford to do things like grab Cha 14 if you want to play a charming Wizard, or whatever other thematic stat choices you want on less MAD builds.
Thanks everyone. You've confirmed that 15 point buy and 20 point buy don't make a difference and the +2 bonus is effectively just recreating 20 point buy.
So how about this as an alternate:
Your scores start at 8, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10 (arrange to suit) and you get 20 points to increase them up to a maximum of 16 (before racial modifiers are added). No buy downs are allowed.It's not quite 20 point buy (effectively an 18 point buy) and it tones down Wizards/Sorcerers/Witches (who almost always min/max to get that 20 in their primary stat) without having a major impact on the vast majority of classes who typically cap themselves at 16 unless being run by a strong min/max enthusiast. MAD classes are hindered somewhat in that they can't buy down to 7 to help boost their other stats, but they shouldn't be too far behind the rest of the party given everyone has a cap of 16.
Do people think this would have the desired effect?
I realise ability scores are a minor element for creating particularly powerful characters, but it's a starting point. My goal is to reign in the worst character builds without stifling the creativity and enjoyment of my players. It's also not motivated by trying to limit the power of my player's characters, but instead provide an even baseline so that I can better gauge what effect combats will have (i.e. find the sweet spot between TPK and cakewalk).
Sounds good to me.
The reason higher point buys are seemingly much more powerful despite the numerical differences being so close is because of the "you must be this tall to ride" effect. Many feats have stat minimums. The more stat minimums you meet the wider your array of character options are. The more character options you have open the more you can optimize. The more you optimize the more powerful your character gets.
You still put rerolling limits on preventing super-suck. Honestly, the limits listed in the beginner box's character generation section is, I've found, very good. Roll 4D6, drop lowest, as long as your highest roll is a 14 or better, and the sum of all your modifiers is at least a +4, its good to go. If not, reroll all 6. Of course, if you feel this is too weak, you can boost the reroll thresholds a bit, but the randomness, I feel, really does make the character. But I'm very against min-maxing in general.Don't point buy? Roll the scores old school.Brilliant.
Fixes the problem by having half the party be roided up super gods, and the other half Tiny Tim's twice as sickly cousin.
Surely that is a preferable alternative.
Had a random thought for how to make rolling even out slightly, though I'm not sure exactly what average point buy it comes out to.
Roll 4d6, straight. Catch is, maximum stat is 18 once, and no subsequent stat can be higher than 16. On the flipside the minimum stat is 8 for one, but 10 for all subsequent low rolls.
I think this evens out to somewhere around a 30 PB (which I'd be fine with in a high power game).
Seems you can just change the constraints a bit (16 max, 14 subsequent, 7 min, then 8, then 10) to lower the average while still allowing for a bit of randomness if that's your cup o' tea.
A few people are saying that a 15 point buy doesn't the potency of a character vs a 25 point buy, it only limits the variety of characters. It's not an old argument but I think it could be a bit outdated.
Take the Monk for example. One of the most MAD classes around. In PFS a friend and I tried to build a monk but the stats were causing us trouble. Initially I thought a dwarf would work (WIS and CON boosters) but eventually abandoned it in favour of a human (either for flavour or just flat out difficulty. I can't remember). My friend and I independently came to the following array:
CRB Human Monk Array (20)
15+2 (7)
14 (5)
14 (5)
10 (0)
15 (7)
7 (-4)
However when the Advanced Race Guide came out the ultimate monk array changed. You could give up the (fairly) useless bonus feat for a second +2 allowing you to boost wisdom. IMO this made monks viable using 16 point buy (not 15 though):
ARG Human Monk Array (16)
15+2 (7)
14 (5)
14 (5)
10 (0)
13+2 (3)
7 (-4)
Using deadman walking' system with 20 point buy:
House ruled Human Monk Array (20)
15+2 (7)
14 (5)
14 (5)
10 (0)
13+2 (3)
8 (0)
IMO if a monk can be built using this point buy system then pretty much any class should be viable. Will their secondary scores be as high as in a 25 point buy system? Of course not (especially if you allow buy downs below 10). But on the other hand the APs are built around a 15 point buy so this method seems like a reasonable compromise between a 15 point buy and a 20 point buy.
I'd be interested in hearing people's thoughts. Is my reasoning flawed?