I've checked around but I can't find anything definitive about how CR works for character level (pretty sure its class levels + cr = ecl) but I think I saw something about buying them off at a rate of 1/3 levels up to 1/2 cr rounded down +1 (that might be wrong, but it looked like it was that from the wording) It is recommended that for every 3 levels gained by the group, the monster character should gain an extra level, received halfway between the 2nd and 3rd levels. Repeat this process a number of times equal to half the monster's CR, rounded down. (emphasis mine)
or do you go with the 3.5 version of 3xla = lvl you can buy a level off at d20srd (Am I allowed to have this link..? idk if that'd be under copyright or not since it's ogl for WotC)
and with either case what about acquired templates?
I'm confused about what you're talking about. Are you asking what the CR for a lv5 fighter is? or are you wanting to add class levels to a monster?
Aki: the text you are refering to is refered to players: those who play a race with level adjustment should level slightly faster than those who don't, as the racial abilities loose oomph in the higher levels (hence the guideline of 1 extra level each 3 untill the racial adjustment is negated).
If, as a GM you are adding class levels to monsters (with a base CR of 1 or higher), you have to take into account if the levels merge well with the main focus of the monster. If they do, such as adding fighter levels to a troll or witch levels to a pixie, each level accounts for a +1 in CR. If they don't, such as adding fighter levels to a pixie or witch levels to a troll, each 2 levels account for +1 in CR (up to the point where the increase in CR is equal to the original CR of the monster, at which point each additional level accounts for a full +1CR).
I hope I've been exhaustive in answering your question and that the wall of text above is understandable. If I left anything out or left something unclear, please tell me and I'll do my best to solve it.
I'm basically asking if a pc was a shulsaga (cr3 monster with 4 racial HD) who became a ranger they'd be Monster 3/ranger 1 and 4th level right?
.
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is there anyway to get then down from that? with the first link from pathfinder itself it would seem like it'd go
.
PC in question // everyone else
M3/R1 ecl4 // level 4
M3/R2 evl5 // level 5
M2/R3 ecl5 // level 5
M2/R4 ecl6 // level 6
M2/R5 ecl7 // level 7
M1/R6 ecl7 // level 7
M1/R7 ecl8 // level 8
can't be lowered anymore than M1 because max you can lose is 1+ 1/2 cr so 1+1
or would it be
PC in question // everyone else
M3/R1 ecl4 // level 4
M3/R2 evl5 // level 5
M3/R3 ecl5 // level 5
M3/R4 ecl6 // level 6
M3/R5 ecl7 // level 7
M3/R6 ecl7 // level 7
M3/R7 ecl8 // level 8
or the worst of them which also doesn't make sense imho
PC in question // everyone else
M3/R1 ecl4 // level 4
M3/R2 evl5 // level 5
M3/R3 ecl6 // level 5
M3/R4 ecl7 // level 6
M3/R5 ecl8 // level 7
M3/R6 ecl9 // level 7
M3/R7 ecl10 // level 8
or would they all be wrong? If I could get an official source it'd be all the better..
Aki: the text you are refering to is refered to players: those who play a race with level adjustment should level slightly faster than those who don't, as the racial abilities loose oomph in the higher levels (hence the guideline of 1 extra level each 3 untill the racial adjustment is negated).
If, as a GM you are adding class levels to monsters (with a base CR of 1 or higher), you have to take into account if the levels merge well with the main focus of the monster. If they do, such as adding fighter levels to a troll or witch levels to a pixie, each level accounts for a +1 in CR. If they don't, such as adding fighter levels to a pixie or witch levels to a troll, each 2 levels account for +1 in CR (up to the point where the increase in CR is equal to the original CR of the monster, at which point each additional level accounts for a full +1CR).
I hope I've been exhaustive in answering your question and that the wall of text above is understandable. If I left anything out or left something unclear, please tell me and I'll do my best to solve it.
My question was actually a mix of as DM and as a player, mainly because I just haven't been finding something definitive with this.
I didn't know about the +2 lvl in a class that doesn't mesh = +1 cr so that's a nice thing to know.
and was just trying to get how the levels work for the player part.
by the way thank you both for the quick reply
As far as I know, Pathfinder doesn't support monster PC. so I don't think there's anything official since it's not supported. again I could be wrong on this though.
As far as I know, Pathfinder doesn't support monster PC. so I don't think there's anything official since it's not supported. again I could be wrong on this though.
The first link is to pathfinder's Monsters as PCs page hosted by paizo.com
which says that a PC can play as a monster race
I'm basically asking if a pc was a shulsaga (cr3 monster with 4 racial HD) who became a ranger they'd be Monster 3/ranger 1 and 4th level right?
.
.
is there anyway to get then down from that? with the first link from pathfinder itself it would seem like it'd go
.PC in question // everyone else
M3/R1 ecl4 // level 4
M3/R2 evl5 // level 5
M2/R3 ecl5 // level 5
M2/R4 ecl6 // level 6
M2/R5 ecl7 // level 7
M1/R6 ecl7 // level 7
M1/R7 ecl8 // level 8
can't be lowered anymore than M1 because max you can lose is 1+ 1/2 cr so 1+1or would it be
PC in question // everyone else
M3/R1 ecl4 // level 4
M3/R2 evl5 // level 5
M3/R3 ecl5 // level 5
M3/R4 ecl6 // level 6
M3/R5 ecl7 // level 7
M3/R6 ecl7 // level 7
M3/R7 ecl8 // level 8or the worst of them which also doesn't make sense imho
PC in question // everyone else
M3/R1 ecl4 // level 4
M3/R2 evl5 // level 5
M3/R3 ecl6 // level 5
M3/R4 ecl7 // level 6
M3/R5 ecl8 // level 7
M3/R6 ecl9 // level 7
M3/R7 ecl10 // level 8or would they all be wrong? If I could get an official source it'd be all the better..
The first one clearly isn't right: the adjustment from race isn't ever actualy reduced or negated, it just looses value over time.
So, the second and the third seem allright. The only difference would be the "efective CR" of the character. As it is stated that the racial abilities loose value over time, I'd side with the second one, but there realy isn't much of a difference.
As a side note, I woldn't ever allow players to get "discounted levels", even if they were in an "off" class.
The first one clearly isn't right: the adjustment from race isn't ever actualy reduced or negated, it just looses value over time.So, the second and the third seem allright. The only difference would be the "efective CR" of the character. As it is stated that the racial abilities loose value over time, I'd side with the second one, but there realy isn't much of a difference.
As a side note, I woldn't ever allow players to get "discounted levels", even if they were in an "off" class.
off class being nonfavored, or something that doesn't fit, like a troll going for a spell caster class? (I think that could be fun as fluff.. a troll wanting to show he can be a smartacle wizard)
and as a part two of my question kinda.. if you got an acquired template what would that do to cr you buy off.. would they be separate or together?
same PC acquires the Alchemically quickened template cr+1 when the party is lvl 6
PC in question // everyone else
M3/R1 ecl4 // level 4
M3/R2 evl5 // level 5
M3/R3 ecl5 // level 5
M3/A1/R4 ecl7 // level 6
M3/A1/R4 ecl7 // level 7
M3/A1/R5 ecl8 // level 8
M3/A1/R6 ecl8 // level 8
the most it would work off would be (1+1)(from shulsaga) + (1+0)(from quickened)
PC in question // everyone else
M3/R1 ecl4 // level 4
M3/R2 evl5 // level 5
M3/R3 ecl5 // level 5
M3/A1/R4 ecl7 // level 6
M3/A1/R4 ecl7 // level 7
M3/A1/R5 ecl7 // level 7
M3/A1/R6 ecl8 // level 8
the most it working off being 1+1(from shulsaga) + 0(from quickened)
or would it be more
PC in question // everyone else
M3/R1 ecl4 // level 4
M3/R2 evl5 // level 5
M3/R3 ecl6 // level 5
M4/R4 ecl7 // level 6
M4/R4 ecl7 // level 7
M4/R5 ecl7 // level 7
M4/R6 ecl8 // level 8
or would it be 1+ 2 (shulsaga + invisibility then divided by two)
sorry if it's a bit confusing. I don't know a good way to show it ina chart.. Basically if you gain a template do you track it separately or do you include it with the previous cr
It is recommended that for every 3 levels gained by the group, the monster character should gain an extra level, received halfway between the 2nd and 3rd levels. Repeat this process a number of times equal to half the monster's CR, rounded down. Using the minotaur example, when the group is at a point between 6th and 7th level, the minotaur gains a level, and then again at 7th, making him a minotaur barbarian 4. This process repeats at 10th level, making him a minotaur barbarian 8 when the group reaches 10th level. From that point onward, he gains levels normally.
Half the CR of a CR 3 monster means 1 because we round down. That means you will use this as a chart.
Level 3 = Monster
Level 4 = Monster + Level 1
Level 5 = Monster + Level 2
Level 5.5 = Monster + Level 3
Level 6 = Monster + Level 4
At this point he levels up like the rest.
Not quite, Oliver.
All monster PCs get at least 1 "bonus level" halfway between levels 2 and 3, and that process is repeated a number of times equal to half CR (rounded down), so any monster race of at least CR 2 will get at least two bonus class levels.
The second original chart looks best to me. As for adding a template, I would factor that in before determining the number of bonus levels added (it wouldn't get its own 1+1/2 CR), but the rules aren't completely clear, but doing it that way gives the same result whether the template is on the character from the start, or added at a later point, which reduces bookkeeping.
As for adding a template, I would factor that in before determining the number of bonus levels added (it wouldn't get its own 1+1/2 CR), but the rules aren't completely clear, but doing it that way gives the same result whether the template is on the character from the start, or added at a later point, which reduces bookkeeping.
The problem I see with that though is if you are a monster race with cr1
would you get 1 or 2 levels (I think you would get 2 levels because it becomes 1+ (1+1)/2 ) and if you get the template later does the .5 from the first cr stay floating.someone starts with cr 1 with +1 template would get 2 levels 1 + 1 as noted above. someone with cr 1 starts play and at 5th level gains +1 template would you have kept the .5 from the first cr, or would that be "if you remembered the book keeping you get a perk : o" type deal
And do you count the level you acquire the template as part of the 2-3 levels. (In the previous example, would the character get the bonus level between party lvl 6-7 or 7-8?
Sorry if this is getting annoying, I am just trying to get things cleared up so there is as little error as possible. I don't really mind bookkeeping, I find it helps train the mind to catch things better in classes when you do bookkeeping clearly. (not having everything sprawled out over multiple pages that you have to rummage through to find why you have that +4 to initiative, only to find out it wasn't improved initiative it was Cunning Initiative, from being part inquisitor.)
imho if theres an inconsistency it makes it harder to enjoy the fluff of the game.
It's not actually so much a bookkeeping issue as one where the rules should give the same result regardless of the order of operations. In other words, if someone is trying to make the same character, knowing only the end result, they should be able to do so without knowing exactly how you did it.
Gotchya, thank you for the help.
ECL dose not exist in pathfinder that a 3.5 or 3.0 idea
Did not know they did away with that thank you Tom.
The standard Drow race has no level adjustment, despite that itstill gets some awesome SLAs. A Drow Noble has a level adjustment of +2. In theory, the Drow Noble should level at the same time her party levels, just that while her friends are level 4, she will be turning level 2.
In 3.5, everyone could start off at level 1 together, but this leaves the Drow Noble short when the party goes to level up, because her effective character level is actually 2 higher than the rest of the party, so she has to gain a lot more experience to gain a single level.
Unearthed Arcana presented a way to "buy off" your level adjustment by trading in enough experience to level up at a certain level compared to your ECL. Since I began with the Drow, they would have to trade in effectively their third class level's worth of experience, keeping them at level 2, but now putting them at a level adjustment of only +1. At sixth level, they could do it again. From then on, they were treated as a character of their character level, not their character level plus their level adjustment, so they could then begin to earn experience as normal.
Although it has been said that Pathfinder doesn't use the ECL concept, in many ways the "Monsters as PCs" page is the same thing.
Sure, there is no longer any ECL at all for any of the "near" races that used to get ECL+1 in DD3.5. But having a monstrous PC with multiple hit dice have a "monster class level" equal to its CR is really the same mechanic as ECL.
So a CR3 ogre (4 monsstrous hit dice, but CR3) counts as the equivalent of a 3rd level fighter, wizard, etc. When his party members are at 6th level, the ogre will be at 3rd level in whatever class he picks. So the ogre would be, kind of, a 3rd level ogre/3rd level slayer (for example), the same way one of his pals could be a 3rd level rogue/3rd level sorcerer multiclass character.
The concept of the "diminishing value" of monstrous levels seems a bit off the wall to me, kind of like the "buying off" of level adjustment in DD3.5/UA. So the above ogre would in fact be 4th level in his chosen class when his pals the fighter and wizard reach 6th level. As a CR3 critter, the ogre would only get that one "extra" level.
IMHO, any CR1 critter should just begin play as a standard PC, substituting his (single) class hit die for the one or two racial hit dice. If you saddled such a monstrous PC with a "monster class level", he would never be able to "buy it off", since half of one, rounded down, is a very small number indeed.
IMHO, any CR1 critter should just begin play as a standard PC, substituting his (single) class hit die for the one or two racial hit dice. If you saddled such a monstrous PC with a "monster class level", he would never be able to "buy it off", since half of one, rounded down, is a very small number indeed.
The number of bonus levels you gain as a monster PC is always a minimum of 1, regardless of CR. The formula is 1+(CR/2), per the rules.
You're right. It's been a while since I read the entry, I was trying from memory.
But my 3.5 Drow Swordsage/Druid was still trying to buy off her level adjustment of +2 as the campaign ended due to everybody moved. I may have thought the Noble's LA was the same as the 3.5 Drow.
As a thought experiment, look into the Race Builder in the Advanced Race guide...
In the "Challenging Advanced and Monstrous Races" section, the guide provides a chart that outlines a level adjustment to a party that has an average Racial Point value. (The chart scales with level)
The Drow Noble has 41 RP (an example that is already worked out for us). If you had a standard party of 4 of these creatures at level 1 of a player class, they would be considered APL 4, and each member is treated as though it were level 4 (i.e. to reach level 2 would require the experience to transition from level 4 to level 5)
Now, consider a single Drow Noble (lvl 1) with 3 Half-Elves (lvl 4) (perhaps with the Drow Blooded racial trait) that form a party. This party is functionally APL 4, and for consistency it is reasonable to expect that the Drow will gain levels at the same rate as it would if it were in a party of other nobles.
When the APL reaches 6, the Noble's racial adjustment decreases by 1, leaving it trailing behind the half-elves adjusted level. At this point, the Noble gains levels slightly faster (though it does not earn more XP per fight, it simply takes less to earn a new level).
This continues until the Noble's level adjustment vanishes entirely when the APL reaches ~16. There is no active buy off, though the mechanic is essentially the same.
This method works with races that can be constructed via the Advanced Race Guide (and with GM adjudication of Racial abilities not directly presented by the Guide). As might be expected with a question that deals with monstrous PCs, the answer is not well defined and requires extra work by both Player and GM to track. There are, however, RP / flavor reasons that could make the benefit outweigh the effort...
As a disclaimer, it should be noted that "as written", the Race Guide gives the level adjustment to the entire party based on the average of party Racial Points. Thus, a reasonable interpretation of this could lead to both the Noble and the Half-Elves taking a 2 level adjustment (71 / 4 ~ 18 ~ 20 RP avg) which scales as written. My interpretation penalizes the Drow more, but is more internally consistent (level up rate is the same for all Drow Nobles, independent of who their team mates happen to be)
To summarize my method:
1) Calculate RP for the monstrous race via the Advanced Race Guide
2) Look up Level Adjustment determined by the APL
3) Sum Monster Player's level and level adjustment. This is the Player's effective level for APL purpose and levelling up
Not quite, Oliver.
All monster PCs get at least 1 "bonus level" halfway between levels 2 and 3, and that process is repeated a number of times equal to half CR (rounded down),.
Thank you for the correction :)
Level 3 = Monster
Level 4 = Monster + Level 1
Level 5 = Monster + Level 2
Level 5.5 = Monster + Level 3 ----- This be a "bonus level"
Level 6 = Monster + Level 4
Level 7 = Monster + Level 5
Level 8 = Monster + Level 6
Level 8.5 = Monster + Level 7 ----- This be the last "bonus level"
Level 9 = Monster + Level 8