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Don't know if this should go in advice or rules.
so ok, just levelled and many things happened at once.
I'm playing a paladin4/sorcerer1/dragon disciple3
I just got my first iteratives (+6/+1)
I'm toting around 3 different swords: a large bastard sword, a normal bastard sword & a longsword. I'll most likely be using the longsword the most from now on because it's ... better on all counts.
so what types of attacks can I do or what combination of attacks?
-can I bite, claw with my left hand, and then cut with 2 longsword attacks?
-can I make a bite attack when I'm two-handing the large bastard sword?
-is it possible to use a claw attack & then swing the two-hander? (I don't think so, but just checking options since the wording on changing grip made me wonder)
Anything else I've missed?
Any advice/clarification will be rewarded with good karma! :)
Longsword +6, Longsword +1, Bite +1, Claw +1
...and...
Two-handed +6, Two-handed +1, Bite +1
...are legal.Using the same limb for a natural attack and a manufactured weapon attack doesn't work, though.
thank you so much! this made it so much easier to wrap my head around.
quick question: the bite and claw attacks are on the +1 bonus because ... they are a secondary attack and secondary attacks are made with a -5 from your highest BAB, correct?
-just trying to get it right for future calculations.
Longsword +6, Longsword +1, Bite +1, Claw +1
...and...
Two-handed +6, Two-handed +1, Bite +1
...are legal.Using the same limb for a natural attack and a manufactured weapon attack doesn't work, though.
thank you so much! this made it so much easier to wrap my head around.
quick question: the bite and claw attacks are on the +1 bonus because ... they are a secondary attack and secondary attacks are made with a -5 from your highest BAB, correct?
-just trying to get it right for future calculations.
Yes.
You also have an option of going full natural attack getting +6 bite, 2 claws +6, when your hands are free.
Also, even if you wield weapon you don't have to use it so for example you can go for bite +6 (when wielding two-handed weapon), or bite +6 and claw +6 (while wielding long sword) if for some reason you don't want.
Another option:
longsword +6/+1 and bite +1 while wielding shield to improve your AC.
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Longsword +6, Longsword +1, Bite +1, Claw +1
...and...
Two-handed +6, Two-handed +1, Bite +1
...are legal.Using the same limb for a natural attack and a manufactured weapon attack doesn't work, though.
thank you so much! this made it so much easier to wrap my head around.
quick question: the bite and claw attacks are on the +1 bonus because ... they are a secondary attack and secondary attacks are made with a -5 from your highest BAB, correct?
-just trying to get it right for future calculations.
Like Drejk said, but also another note. If you're doing as he suggests you get your full str bonus on your natural attacks because they're all primary attacks. If you attack with a manufactured weapon and then your natural attacks, they decrease to secondary and get the -5 like you noted, but also only get 1/2 the str bonus.
It's quite possible that it would be better to forego your weapons and just use bite/claw/claw at your full strength and full attack bonus.
Longsword +6, Longsword +1, Bite +1, Claw +1
...and...
Two-handed +6, Two-handed +1, Bite +1
...are legal.Using the same limb for a natural attack and a manufactured weapon attack doesn't work, though.
thank you so much! this made it so much easier to wrap my head around.
quick question: the bite and claw attacks are on the +1 bonus because ... they are a secondary attack and secondary attacks are made with a -5 from your highest BAB, correct?
-just trying to get it right for future calculations.Like Drejk said, but also another note. If you're doing as he suggests you get your full str bonus on your natural attacks because they're all primary attacks. If you attack with a manufactured weapon and then your natural attacks, they decrease to secondary and get the -5 like you noted, but also only get 1/2 the str bonus.
It's quite possible that it would be better to forego your weapons and just use bite/claw/claw at your full strength and full attack bonus.
The sword is +3 and +2str so I think it's currently my new "bestest thing in the whole world!"
Good thing you mentioned the 1/2str on the secondary attacks, I had forgotten that rule.And now I've caught up to the TWF Ranger in amounts of attacks in a full round, but she is still ahead on her to hit of course.
isn't there two weapon fighting penalties in there somewhere?
if not then I can see why many DM's prohibit anything that give the Players natural attacks (note: this does not mean unarmed strikes).
so with the Two weapon fighting feat. you can take two sword swings and a claw but all attacks at -2
unless you don't use a weapon at all then its just claw/claw/bite.
I was in a game where a magus easily reigned on the battlefield while my barbarian was useless.
claw/claw/bite/claw/shocking grasp as a full attack routine at level 2
me: sword.... done
Before I can help, I need to know
Is your heart attack primary or secondary?
Before I can help, I need to know
Is your heart attack primary or secondary?
It's calming down now, was probably just heartburn or an ulcer.
I can see why many DM's prohibit anything that give the Players natural attacks (note: this does not mean unarmed strikes).
well, look at it this way:
we were both martial characters with full BAB,at lvl 5 I switched to a class with less BAB - but with more magical options.
as a result my first class has class abilities that will not improve any more than where I left them, hers will continus to scale.
I am a lvl 8 character with the spellcasting of a lvl 3 Sorcerer.
-So I don't think an extra "+9 att. 1d4+3 dmg." is going to break our game :)
where I shine is that I'm a high AC, high HP frontliner with decent CHA and silly STR.
If anybody is wondering, my spell selection so far is: Mage Armor, Enlarge Person, Shield -and I'm picking 1 new 1st. lvl. spell now (I have no Idea what to pick)
-So it's not like the ranger is feeling upstaged by my "MIGHTY MAGICAL BICEPS! UGH! YEAH!"
My most used spell so far has been "Detect Magic" ...
Btw: the party has a caster druid as well, holy swiss army knife batman!
So, you should be able to do the following:
Longsword +6/Longdsword +1/Bite +1/Claw +1
Longsword in two hands +6/Longsword in two hands +1/Bite +1
Bite +6/Claw +6/ Claw +6
As great as you think that longsword is, I have to say, unless you need to bypass DR, it looks to me like abandoning the weapon altogether and just using the natural weapons is your best plan.
I'd say so too. But it does depend on the feats invested in the longsword. And eventually (when you get more itterative attacks) the sword will be better.So, you should be able to do the following:
Longsword +6/Longdsword +1/Bite +1/Claw +1
Longsword in two hands +6/Longsword in two hands +1/Bite +1
Bite +6/Claw +6/ Claw +6
As great as you think that longsword is, I have to say, unless you need to bypass DR, it looks to me like abandoning the weapon altogether and just using the natural weapons is your best plan.
Ok, that's food for thought.
Nifty, I'll keep it in mind.So does anyone know of a good 1st lvl spell? -I know there are some good sides to shocking grasp but my character is fire focused and I am not planning to use other elements if I can avoid it.
Have been thinking of some cool utility spells or some thematic control spells but ... Swiss Army Druid remember?
You qualify for the Multiattack feat, if your GM allows it.
You qualify for the Multiattack feat, if your GM allows it.
I'm pretty sure he doesn't.
we're a story-focused roleplaying group mostly and our gm is very good at narratives and npcs, but not really a ruleslawyer.so we play "Core-only" and I don't want to give him any headaches by asking for weird feats or spells.
It's a kind of social contract between us: he knows I know the rules better than him, I try not to use it against him or to ruin for the groups sense of fun.
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isn't there two weapon fighting penalties in there somewhere?
if not then I can see why many DM's prohibit anything that give the Players natural attacks (note: this does not mean unarmed strikes).
so with the Two weapon fighting feat. you can take two sword swings and a claw but all attacks at -2
unless you don't use a weapon at all then its just claw/claw/bite.
I was in a game where a magus easily reigned on the battlefield while my barbarian was useless.
claw/claw/bite/claw/shocking grasp as a full attack routine at level 2
me: sword.... done
If it makes you feel any better the magus cheated (hopefully not intentionally). To use spell combat with natural attacks that aren't your main hand (main hand = weapon, off hand = spell), you have to take this random Magus Arcana (Natural Spell Combat) from the splat book Blood of the Moon. Also, even if he wimply could use all of his natural attacks this way, he can't use both claws because the offhand already cast the spell. You can't use the same limb twice.
Spell Combat is not a full-round attack, it's its own full-round action so you can't add in extra natural attacks like you can with a full-round attack.
If you're using natural attacks, a spell that can discharge multiple times would be better than shocking grasp. I would suggest Frostbite, or, if you want to avoid nonlethal, chill touch.
Of course, you could also just stick to utility. Silent Image, Grease, Mount, Unseen Servant, etc. For the creative player, those sorts of spells are good for 20 levels.
isn't there two weapon fighting penalties in there somewhere?
if not then I can see why many DM's prohibit anything that give the Players natural attacks (note: this does not mean unarmed strikes).
so with the Two weapon fighting feat. you can take two sword swings and a claw but all attacks at -2
unless you don't use a weapon at all then its just claw/claw/bite.
I was in a game where a magus easily reigned on the battlefield while my barbarian was useless.
claw/claw/bite/claw/shocking grasp as a full attack routine at level 2
me: sword.... done
If it makes you feel any better the magus cheated (hopefully not intentionally). To use spell combat with natural attacks that aren't your main hand (main hand = weapon, off hand = spell), you have to take this random Magus Arcana (Natural Spell Combat) from the splat book Blood of the Moon. Also, even if he wimply could use all of his natural attacks this way, he can't use both claws because the offhand already cast the spell. You can't use the same limb twice.
Spell Combat is not a full-round attack, it's its own full-round action so you can't add in extra natural attacks like you can with a full-round attack.
Also, how was the magus making 3 claw attacks, anyway? Did the player have a 4 armed character?
And just to clarify from Edward's post (because I don't think it was answered, or maybe I just missed it), the TWF penalties are separate from Natural Attacks. Natural Attacks do not suffer the TWF penalties, but do suffer the secondary natural attack penalties when combined with manufacture weapons.
You qualify for the Multiattack feat, if your GM allows it.we play "Core-only" and I don't want to give him any headaches by asking for weird feats or spells.
Multiattack is a core feat. Its just one set aside for monsters.
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isn't there two weapon fighting penalties in there somewhere?
No, not anymore. In earlier printings of the CRB there was mention of TWF penalties and the -5 from combining natural & manufactured weapons being cumulative. At some point after the 4th printing or so of the CRB the TWF penalties were dropped.
Currently if you combine natural attacks with a manufactured weapon attack, the natural attacks are made at just -5 (unless you have multiattack) and become secondary.
I was in a game where a magus easily reigned on the battlefield while my barbarian was useless.
claw/claw/bite/claw/shocking grasp as a full attack routine at level 2
me: sword.... done
Don't feel too bad. The magus was not following the rules.
well even with the loss of a claw attack it was pretty bad that the Magus was becoming the party front liner and arcane support.
we also had a cleric and a bard. so my role was now being filled (more effectively) by the Magus.
while it really should not matter much mechanically it did become a role playing sore spot, as the party interacted with NPC's
need support call the bard, need healing, call the cleric, need arcane magic call the magus, need some muscle call....the Magus.
game died once we reached level 4 so don't know if things would have gotten better.
at low levels, multiple attacks in a round make a huge difference. it also tends to throw off the power curve for GM's attempting to balance the encounters.
Multiple natural attacks (especially primary) are very strong at low levels. It tapers off a bit when iteratives start coming around. By the time you get solidly into double digit levels, the natural attack build likely is somewhat underpowered.
You were playing at low levels and your party's magus doesn't appear to have been correctly following the rules (probably by mistake). So those things combined would certainly result in some overshadowing.
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well even with the loss of a claw attack it was pretty bad that the Magus was becoming the party front liner and arcane support.
we also had a cleric and a bard. so my role was now being filled (more effectively) by the Magus.
while it really should not matter much mechanically it did become a role playing sore spot, as the party interacted with NPC's
need support call the bard, need healing, call the cleric, need arcane magic call the magus, need some muscle call....the Magus.
game died once we reached level 4 so don't know if things would have gotten better.
at low levels, multiple attacks in a round make a huge difference. it also tends to throw off the power curve for GM's attempting to balance the encounters.
C'mon, I already explained it above.... It wasn't just "the loss of a claw attack" You said he was getting claw, claw, bite, shocking grasp+claw. He should have only been getting claw and shocking bite+claw. That's the loss of a bite and a claw. Yes, that's still really good at low level, but not as broken as he was playing it to be.