OGL and digital books confirmed for 5E


4th Edition

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http://www.enworld.org/forum/content.php?2037-The-OGL-Shall-Return!-And-Oth er-Short-Stories!#.VGElUjTF8Zm

personally I'm very excited for this, and i know the lack of this has been a sticking point for a lot of people on the subject of 5e.


I'm still curious to see what will become of the DDI in their new model. Will they still have a subscription that gives you access to online tools (at the moment none unless they were working on a backup solution behind Dungeonscape's back) as well as the ability to download the PDFs of the online Dragon and Dungeon content? Will it give you online access to the book content, if not actual PDFs of the core books?


That is encouraging, but I'll believe it when I see it. Sorry to be a pessimist, but I've heard this story before.


Wouldnt expect anything less.


lorenlord wrote:
Wouldnt expect anything less.

Consumers have not been able to buy a copy of the current D&D rules in any digital format for years, despite constant and repeated requests. If a company of Hasbro's size wanted to fix that, they would have done so long ago. In fact, if they were serious, they could have easily had WotC put the 5E PHB for sale on dndclassics.com in the time since my last post in this thread.

They haven't.

So yeah, I'm skeptical, but I'd like nothing better than to be proven wrong.

Shadow Lodge

The 4E Rules Compendium was made available at dndclassics.com / DriveThruRPG / RPGNow before 5e was published, so your statement that they current D&D rules haven't been available for years is disingenuous.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
bugleyman wrote:
lorenlord wrote:
Wouldnt expect anything less.

Consumers have not been able to buy a copy of the current D&D rules in any digital format for years, despite constant and repeated requests. If a company of Hasbro's size wanted to fix that, they would have done so long ago. In fact, if they were serious, they could have easily had WotC put the 5E PHB for sale on dndclassics.com in the time since my last post in this thread.

They haven't.

So yeah, I'm skeptical, but I'd like nothing better than to be proven wrong.

My guess is its mostly a pricing thing, they cannot price Digital books like they do physical copies, no one would buy a 40 dollar pdf, and at the same time they cant price the books to be competitive with digital format.

I figure they will wait probably a quarter after the dmg is put out, and all of the initial hype/release sales have happened before they put out the digital format. Basically my theory is that they want to avoid competing with themselves early on because it could mean a significant loss.

And assuming the pdfs are not half assed i really dont see any problem with doing it that way. I may be wrong of course, this is all speculation, but it would make sense.


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Kthulhu wrote:
The 4E Rules Compendium was made available at dndclassics.com / DriveThruRPG / RPGNow before 5e was published, so your statement that they current D&D rules haven't been available for years is disingenuous.

I suppose you could count the Rules Compendium as an example of a current version of D&D being available electronically, except it doesn't contain the information required to actually play the game (no classes, powers, or races). So I don't. And I'm not even being disingenuous.


Kekkres wrote:
My guess is its mostly a pricing thing, they cannot price Digital books like they do physical copies, no one would buy a 40 dollar pdf, and at the same time they cant price the books to be competitive with digital format.

*Raises hand* I would. Though I suspect you're correct that the vast majority would not.

Kekkres wrote:

I figure they will wait probably a quarter after the dmg is put out, and all of the initial hype/release sales have happened before they put out the digital format. Basically my theory is that they want to avoid competing with themselves early on because it could mean a significant loss.

And assuming the pdfs are not half assed i really dont see any problem with doing it that way. I may be wrong of course, this is all speculation, but it would make sense.

I hope you're right!

Shadow Lodge

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bugleyman wrote:
Kthulhu wrote:
The 4E Rules Compendium was made available at dndclassics.com / DriveThruRPG / RPGNow before 5e was published, so your statement that they current D&D rules haven't been available for years is disingenuous.
I suppose you could count the Rules Compendium as an example of a current version of D&D being available electronically, except it doesn't contain the information required to actually play the game (no classes, powers, or races). So I don't. And I'm not even being disingenuous.

I know that this is pretty much the complete antithesis of 3.x/PFRPG, but character creation / advancement is NOT the game. The actual adventuring is the game. The Rules Compendium gives you everything you need for an actual game session.


Kthulhu wrote:
bugleyman wrote:
Kthulhu wrote:
The 4E Rules Compendium was made available at dndclassics.com / DriveThruRPG / RPGNow before 5e was published, so your statement that they current D&D rules haven't been available for years is disingenuous.
I suppose you could count the Rules Compendium as an example of a current version of D&D being available electronically, except it doesn't contain the information required to actually play the game (no classes, powers, or races). So I don't. And I'm not even being disingenuous.
I know that this is pretty much the complete antithesis of 3.x/PFRPG, but character creation / advancement is NOT the game. The actual adventuring is the game. The Rules Compendium gives you everything you need for an actual game session.

Though you do kind of need to be able to make a character and advance him to play the game. Or have pregens supplied and leveled for you as needed, I suppose.


bugleyman wrote:
lorenlord wrote:
Wouldnt expect anything less.

Consumers have not been able to buy a copy of the current D&D rules in any digital format for years, despite constant and repeated requests. If a company of Hasbro's size wanted to fix that, they would have done so long ago. In fact, if they were serious, they could have easily had WotC put the 5E PHB for sale on dndclassics.com in the time since my last post in this thread.

They haven't.

So yeah, I'm skeptical, but I'd like nothing better than to be proven wrong.

I can't remember, when they briefly had 4e stuff out in PDFs the first time around before yanking them from sale did they have the PH and DMG?

The original DDI gave you the classes, monsters, and magic items in a format you could keep so there was that though.

They never released the PG or DMG for 3.5 or 3.0. Less of a big deal as they had the srds with the majority of the content (although annoying not to have the xp or starting money).

I also can't remember if the original WotC pdf store predated 3e, and whether it had the 2e PH or DMG out before 3e released.


Kthulhu wrote:
bugleyman wrote:
Kthulhu wrote:
The 4E Rules Compendium was made available at dndclassics.com / DriveThruRPG / RPGNow before 5e was published, so your statement that they current D&D rules haven't been available for years is disingenuous.
I suppose you could count the Rules Compendium as an example of a current version of D&D being available electronically, except it doesn't contain the information required to actually play the game (no classes, powers, or races). So I don't. And I'm not even being disingenuous.
I know that this is pretty much the complete antithesis of 3.x/PFRPG, but character creation / advancement is NOT the game. The actual adventuring is the game. The Rules Compendium gives you everything you need for an actual game session.

Uh, no. As bulgeyman wrote, the RC has no classes, powers or races. It also has no monsters, traps, equipment, magic items, rituals, feats, themes, backgrounds... It's a (very good) collection and update of rules, that's all. If you took the PFCRB and removed all the feats, classes, races and spells, I doubt anyone would say that it "gives you everything you need for an actual game session."

Unless you have pregens and a self-contained prewritten adventure (like a starter kit). Or if you already used to other books to prepare that stuff in advance. In those cases, sure you don't need much more than the RC to run a session.


Voadam wrote:
I can't remember, when they briefly had 4e stuff out in PDFs the first time around before yanking them from sale did they have the PH and DMG?

They did, and that was the last time you could actually buy a digital copy of the current edition. I still have my PDF of the 4E PHB I bought from DriveThruRPG. IIRC that was 2009 or so...so for five years, WotC has been saying "real soon now" for digital books. I'm sure they'll get to it any day now. :-/

Edit: It was April 2009. So they've had five years, seven months and counting to figure out digital books. If only there were some readily-available, industry-standard solution they could employ.


bugleyman wrote:
Voadam wrote:
I can't remember, when they briefly had 4e stuff out in PDFs the first time around before yanking them from sale did they have the PH and DMG?

They did, and that was the last time you could actually buy a digital copy of the current edition. I still have my PDF of the 4E PHB I bought from DriveThruRPG. IIRC that was 2009 or so...so for five years, WotC has been saying "real soon now" for digital books. I'm sure they'll get to it any day now. :-/

Edit: It was April 2009. So they've had five years, seven months and counting to figure out digital books. If only there were some readily-available, industry-standard solution they could employ.

Well, they continue to re-release lots of classic books electronically, so I think they have figured something out. If by "figure out digital books", you mean find some way to keep them from being pirated or illegally shared, then good luck on that. Paizo still can't do that either, as no matter how tightly they patrol the internet, illegal pdf's of their work keep popping back up.


Enevhar Aldarion wrote:
Well, they continue to re-release lots of classic books electronically, so I think they have figured something out. If by "figure out digital books", you mean find some way to keep them from being pirated or illegally shared, then good luck on that. Paizo still can't do that either, as no matter how tightly they patrol the internet, illegal pdf's of their work keep popping back up.

And illegal PDFs of Wizard's work keep popping up as well.

The difference is that Paizo provides customers with a legitimate option.

Dark Archive

Well if the interview with the dungeonscape/trapdoor guys is anything to go by I wouldent get to hopefull for much digital anytime soon

Interview with dungeonscape guys


As far as 4E rules go they released five classes: Fighter (Weaponmaster), Cleric (Templar), Rogue (Scoundrel), Wizard (Arcanist), and Warlord (Marshal) as free downloadable classes from their site. You could still grab them now and they come complete with powers for all 29 levels and Paragon Paths. Couple this with the Rules Compendium and the free Adventures they've published and you can easily and viably play 4E for zero money.

EDIT: It's difficult to grab feats, so you'd need a list of them to choose from to go forward. So there is that problem.

As for the OGL, I really can't express how disappointed I am with WotC for doing it again. Of course those here, who've stuck with Pathfinder, find the information wonderful (and it's obvious why) however I feel what the OGL does is cement the publisher into a quagmire or system glut for the foreseeable future and the second they feel like trying something new or going into a new direction this WHOLE thing is going to happen ALL OVER again. Though it won't be PF but some other 3PP people will latch onto What it does is cause stagnation.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I think an OGL is good for the hobby. It may not be good for a certain business, but I feel it is for the hobby as a whole.

Why? Because it doesn't alienate an entire portion of the playerbase. When 3rd edition came out, it was a huge change from 2nd edition. Many people didn't want to switch, so they became alienated. And since their system of choice was no longer the supported one, it fell out of favor and those people end up finding it difficult to find people to play 2nd edition. If not for the OGL, the rather large portion of the playerbase that didn't like 4th edition would be SOL, and would experience the same plight from the previous edition change. But, thanks to the OGL, Pathfinder sprang to life and gave them a chance to continue on.

4th edition lovers will experience the same thing that 2nd edition lovers faced. 4th edition isn't supported anymore, a new edition is out. The new kid on the block (5th edition) is getting more play, and those who loved 4th edition but don't like the new edition will find it hard to find players to play their system of choice.

Did the OGL hurt WotC financially? I think in some part when they abandoned 3rd edition and Pathfinder scooped it up, it hurt their wallet. Another part in why they were hurt financially was the new system. Was it a good system? I don't know as I never played it (I look at the classes and think "Nope", but the rest of the system seemed rather decent). I think it was just too different for a lot of people. The whole "It looks like World of D&DCraft" that went around the internet probably also didn't help.

A 5th edition OGL, I think, could be a good thing. When WotC publishes the inevitable 6th edition, those who loved 5th edition won't be SOL, depending on just how different it would be. Those who loved 4th edition could continue with 13th age, but I don't know how similar, if any, it is to 4th edition. I also haven't heard a thing about 13th Age since the core book was published.


Kevin Mack wrote:

Well if the interview with the dungeonscape/trapdoor guys is anything to go by I wouldent get to hopefull for much digital anytime soon

Interview with dungeonscape guys

Wow...stuff like this is particularly telling:

Quote:
WotC is a paper publisher. That’s what they know. He likened it to book publishing houses, fighting tooth and nail against e-books “…until the technology was so pervasive that the fight was over.”

Ouch! But it gets better:

Quote:
WotC just seems oddly technophobic. And when they do try to embrace technology, they seem to stumble and break their noses in the execution.

Bingo. Sadly, WotC can't seem to get to step one: Admit you have a problem.

Quote:
NOTE: We contacted WotC regarding both their plans for digital distribution and for a follow-up interview about Dungeonscape. They declined to comment on either topic and instead referred us to their initial announcement about their separation from Trapdoor Technologies. -Ed.

The lights are on, but nobody's home... :-(


Enevhar Aldarion wrote:
Well, they continue to re-release lots of classic books electronically, so I think they have figured something out.

Have they re-released any core rulebooks from any edition yet?


Brian E. Harris wrote:
Enevhar Aldarion wrote:
Well, they continue to re-release lots of classic books electronically, so I think they have figured something out.
Have they re-released any core rulebooks from any edition yet?

Yes! Basic D&D including the Rules Cyclopedia, The Moldvay/Cook B/E set and the Mentzer Basic set.

Plus for 4e they have the rules cyclopedia and the DM kit. Which is sort of close.

They have non core monster books for 2e, 3e, and 4e as well.


Adjule wrote:
I think an OGL is good for the hobby. It may not be good for a certain business, but I feel it is for the hobby as a whole.

Which is why I find it a bit baffling that WotC is going to put themselves into a similar circumstance with re-releasing a new OGL.

Adjule wrote:
Why? Because it doesn't alienate an entire portion of the playerbase. When 3rd edition came out, it was a huge change from 2nd edition. Many people didn't want to switch, so they became alienated. And since their system of choice was no longer the supported one, it fell out of favor and those people end up finding it difficult to find people to play 2nd edition. If not for the OGL, the rather large portion of the playerbase that didn't like 4th edition would be SOL, and would experience the same plight from the previous edition change. But, thanks to the OGL, Pathfinder sprang to life and gave them a chance to continue on.

so instead of alienation we get division and warring. I'm not convinced the latter is a better option. People still play 2nd Edition today, just as people still play 3.0, v3.5, and 4E. And when Pathfinder his critical mass, it's going to be very interesting to see how that plays out as Paizo decides how to proceed going forward. I think even a small departure from current PF rules will result in a civil war between those who want to push forward with a better system and those who've invested far too much and are now going to be left out in the cold (who possibly will create a spin-off of Pathfinder of their own considering it's all OGL).

Adjule wrote:
4th edition lovers will experience the same thing that 2nd edition lovers faced. 4th edition isn't supported anymore, a new edition is out. The new kid on the block (5th edition) is getting more play, and those who loved 4th edition but don't like the new edition will find it hard to find players to play their system of choice.

Publicly, yes. Going into a FLGS it's going to be hard to get a group to sit down for a 4E session as opposed to a D&D:Next session. Home games, however, don't suffer from that sort of thing because those running it decide on what to play and bring in people who are probably on-board with that decision.

However the major difference here is that 2nd Edition received 15+ years of supplements, books, novels, and adventures plus HUNDREDS of Dragon/Dungeon magazine content to draw from. Compared to 4th Edition's 5 year run. That's a pretty stark comparison and it's no shocker that 4E fans feel a bit thrown under the bus here. At least with AD&D players they have a vast library to fall back on that they really don't need current content to keep going where as 4E had a lot of areas that just weren't as developed, leaving it to the player base to make up the difference.

Adjule wrote:
Did the OGL hurt WotC financially? I think in some part when they abandoned 3rd edition and Pathfinder scooped it up, it hurt their wallet. Another part in why they were hurt financially was the new system. Was it a good system? I don't know as I never played it (I look at the classes and think "Nope", but the rest of the system seemed rather decent). I think it was just too different for a lot of people. The whole "It looks like World of D&DCraft" that went around the internet probably also didn't help.

I'm fairly certain that no matter what WotC put out after 3.5, it would've failed because it was the second release of "new" rules in under 5 years. Even though people bought v3.5 they were really peeved and expressed it over MANY MANY times on forums and the internet. WotC was losing trust from that point and to come out with a new system a mere 5 years later was just more insult to injury. However I give WotC credit for making 4E look and feel different because I already have a game that does "simulation" and didn't need another one (hence why I don't buy Pathfinder books) and that 4E gave me and my group a different feel but yet had a LOT of ties to the original game that it wasn't that much of a rapid departure. Obviously people felt differently.

Also keep in mind that WotC got flack and people were already writing off 4E before it even hit the shelves. The drama and talk leading up to the game didn't help matters at all.

Adjule wrote:
A 5th edition OGL, I think, could be a good thing. When WotC publishes the inevitable 6th edition, those who loved 5th edition won't be SOL, depending on just how different it would be. Those who loved 4th edition could continue with 13th age, but I don't know how similar, if any, it is to 4th edition. I also haven't heard a thing about 13th Age since the core book was published.

I guess my problem is that WotC will, eventually, get burned when they hit the major saturation point of the system. Oh they've learned that producing TOO much too early is bad and so they'll wait on system-increasing mechanics, churning out Adventures for the most part and maybe one supplement per year to lengthen the cycle's life. But sooner or later, at some point down the road (10, 15 years) they'll come to an impasse where the current model just isn't making them the money Hasbro wants. At that point, when the game changes to meet the new expectation of the gaming generation, they'll be right back to where they were in 2008 and the warring and fighting will begin anew.

I haven't read 13th Age but from some people I hear it's a good successor to 4E and from others I hear there's too much "indy" innovation there to make it as enjoyable.


Kevin Mack wrote:

Well if the interview with the dungeonscape/trapdoor guys is anything to go by I wouldent get to hopefull for much digital anytime soon

Interview with dungeonscape guys

Thanks for that. His whole schtick (I'm going to tell you this whether you want me to or not...) rubbed me up the wrong way, but his interview or the editorialising of such was quite good, in my opinion.


Adjule wrote:
I also haven't heard a thing about 13th Age since the core book was published.

Well, they've released...

13 True Ways (general expansion book)
Bestiary
Book of Loot
Several adventures

Just because you aren't paying attention doesn't mean nothing is happening.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I never said nothing was happening with 13th Age. I said I haven't heard a thing about it since they released the core book. I haven't heard anyone talking about it, but all the time prior to it's publication, I heard all kinds of talk about the system.


Has WotC's crack team of technical experts managed to solve the intractable conundrum of PDFs yet?

*shakes Magic 8-Ball*

Spoiler:
[Outlook not so good]

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
bugleyman wrote:

Has WotC's crack team of technical experts managed to solve the intractable conundrum of PDFs yet?

*shakes Magic 8-Ball*

** spoiler omitted **

Well, they did, but now the issue is considered by The Board of Directors, who have only recently discovered that the VHS/Betamax war was finally concluded...


bugleyman wrote:
Has WotC's crack team of technical experts managed to solve the intractable conundrum of PDFs yet?

Their approach really puzzles me, since they don't actually seem to have a problem with PDFs as such. I don't buy the "anti-piracy" motivation, since they make so much available digitally - I haven't counted, but it seems to me that there was more PDF content produced for 4E (by pagecount) than printed material. It was certainly comparable. They also seem to have re-entered the world of digital distribution via D&D Classics without too much stress.

There just seems to be this strategy of not distributing the core books which I find odd. It's not even about rules (or you'd expect them to make the MM available as a PDF) - it seems quite weird, to me.


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I think the idea is if it is in print within the past 5 years, or something like that, there is not a PDF for it. I think the view is that they want the hardcopies to sell, and they may feel PDFs take away from hardcopy sales.


It seems to me to be more about the core books. I believe you can't get earlier edition monster manuals (for example) which I don't understand.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Steve Geddes wrote:
It seems to me to be more about the core books. I believe you can't get earlier edition monster manuals (for example) which I don't understand.

Not having the older Core books (phb, mm, dmg) in pdf would make sense if you could get them in print. Not being able to buy the physical copies of the pre-4th edition Core 3 books makes the no pdf rather stupid. Why sell pdfs of the supplemental books if there's no real way to get the 3 books needed to play them? Yes, there are both excessively expensive ways to get, for example, the 2nd edition PHB, and free illegal ways to get them digitally.

I can see no pdf for the 5th edition core books, and having the supplements in pdf (though so far, they don't even have those), as you can buy them. I am sure there are some copies of the 4th edition core books being sold as well.

I can't walk into a FLGS and pick up the 3 core books for AD&D (1st and 2nd) or 3rd edition, so having the supplements purchaseable is useless and makes no sense.


FWIW, You can buy the first and second edition core books in print (they re released them last year) or is that what you meant by "excessively expensive"?

Not sure about third and fourth, though.


Steve Geddes wrote:
bugleyman wrote:
Has WotC's crack team of technical experts managed to solve the intractable conundrum of PDFs yet?

Their approach really puzzles me, since they don't actually seem to have a problem with PDFs as such. I don't buy the "anti-piracy" motivation, since they make so much available digitally - I haven't counted, but it seems to me that there was more PDF content produced for 4E (by pagecount) than printed material. It was certainly comparable. They also seem to have re-entered the world of digital distribution via D&D Classics without too much stress.

There just seems to be this strategy of not distributing the core books which I find odd. It's not even about rules (or you'd expect them to make the MM available as a PDF) - it seems quite weird, to me.

The only explaination I can think of is that they want people to pay a monthly fee to have access to the digital books.

If you ask me, 5e won't last too long if it doesn't have PDFs and an OGL.

I also wonder if not releasing a book each month will hurt them. I know, I know, people think it is too much. But it keeps the brand relevant, dynamic. People seem to change buy lots of game now thanks to Kickstarter. Brand/system loyalty seems less present today. People just want more. More! MOAR!


Their marketing seems quite clear to me. I don't think they're aiming to sell lots of books as much as get people playing the tabletop game to also play the MMORPG, buy the comics and so forth.

They're hardly transparent about business strategy, but it seems very obvious to me with the drastic reduction in TTRPG staff and outsourcing of adventure writing that the company is pushing resources into broadening the brand rather than deepening it.

You may be right about the monthly fee, except you don't need to do that with D&D Classics and you didn't need to do that with 4E. For ten bucks you could download and keep thousands of pages of PDFs - the only functional difference in their model was that they didn't store a backup for you unless you were a subscriber, so if you lost some files after your subscription ended you needed to pay another ten bucks (although you also got any new material that had been released).


you can buy hard copies of OE, 1e, 2e, and 3.5e books from amazon, barnes and noble, and many other book sellers, with new covers, but the interiors are the originals

Shadow Lodge

Steve Geddes wrote:
bugleyman wrote:
Has WotC's crack team of technical experts managed to solve the intractable conundrum of PDFs yet?

Their approach really puzzles me, since they don't actually seem to have a problem with PDFs as such. I don't buy the "anti-piracy" motivation, since they make so much available digitally - I haven't counted, but it seems to me that there was more PDF content produced for 4E (by pagecount) than printed material. It was certainly comparable. They also seem to have re-entered the world of digital distribution via D&D Classics without too much stress.

There just seems to be this strategy of not distributing the core books which I find odd. It's not even about rules (or you'd expect them to make the MM available as a PDF) - it seems quite weird, to me.

I think it might have something to do with the fact that they just published the reprints of 0e, 1e, 2e, and 3.5 (fairly) recently. They might not want PDF sales to cut into possible dead-tree sales.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Wow, just checked Amazon and they have quite a bit of old AD&D hardcover books. Some prices are insane, but quite a few are rather reasonable.


Kthulhu wrote:
Steve Geddes wrote:
bugleyman wrote:
Has WotC's crack team of technical experts managed to solve the intractable conundrum of PDFs yet?

Their approach really puzzles me, since they don't actually seem to have a problem with PDFs as such. I don't buy the "anti-piracy" motivation, since they make so much available digitally - I haven't counted, but it seems to me that there was more PDF content produced for 4E (by pagecount) than printed material. It was certainly comparable. They also seem to have re-entered the world of digital distribution via D&D Classics without too much stress.

There just seems to be this strategy of not distributing the core books which I find odd. It's not even about rules (or you'd expect them to make the MM available as a PDF) - it seems quite weird, to me.

I think it might have something to do with the fact that they just published the reprints of 0e, 1e, 2e, and 3.5 (fairly) recently. They might not want PDF sales to cut into possible dead-tree sales.

That may be it. (I didn't know they'd reprinted the 3.5 books).

It's hard to imagine that the loss of sales to people who'll just buy the PDF version instead won't be compensated for by those who'll buy both and those who only want the PDFs.

I wonder if there's perhaps an element of maintaining relations with the brick and mortar gaming stores.


Kthulhu wrote:
I think it might have something to do with the fact that they just published the reprints of 0e, 1e, 2e, and 3.5 (fairly) recently. They might not want PDF sales to cut into possible dead-tree sales.

I don't think so: while I haven't been paying attention to the OD&D/AD&D reprints, they recently reprinted the 3.5 core rules followed by reprinting many 3.5 supplements. However, the 3.5 supplements (including those are still being sold as PDFs, while the 3.5 core rules are not.

So, at least for 3.5, it isn't correlated with what has been reprinted recently. They are selling some in print only, some in PDF only, and others in both print and PDF. It seems to be correlated with core vs non-core.

Shadow Lodge

I don't think any of the supplements they published at that time are available via PDF yet either. And it was just two v3.5 supplements that were reprinted (Spell Compendium and Item Compendium). 1e got Unearthed Arcana along with the adventure compilations for A0-4 (yes, A0 was a brand new adventure for 1st edition) and S1-4. 2e didn't get any additional support beyond the three core books. 0e was published with all but one of the supplements for that edition (and that one was likely ignored because it was never a big seller....and if you used the "alternate" combat rules, it didn't really have any purpose. Those "alternate" rules because the default for every other edition.)

There ARE core rules for a couple of editions being offered for sale as PDF. The D&D Rules Cyclopedia, the full contents of both the Basic and Expert boxes for B/X D&D, and the Basic Box for BECMI D&D.

They steadily release 4+ titles every Tuesday, and they have THOUSANDS of titles to go through. Sometimes there seems to be a pattern for a while (the seem to be on a Birthright and Spelljammer kick at the moment), but that's no real guarantee that that pattern will continue until those lines are completed. Like I said before, if they want to avoid cutting into the dead-tree sales, the core rules may be at the back of the queue.


As far as I can tell, they don't have a coherent strategy. Whether that's because of constant management churn, general corporate inefficiency, or plain old incompetence is unclear to me.

What has become clear to me is that if D&D is going to have a future, it needs leadership that cares about more than the next quarterly earnings statement. Frankly, I just don't see that happening under Hasbro. In a way, I feel worst for the people who actually work on the game...they clearly care, and they deserve a company that does, too. :(


bugleyman wrote:

As far as I can tell, they don't have a coherent strategy. Whether that's because of constant management churn, general corporate inefficiency, or plain old incompetence is unclear to me.

What has become clear to me is that if D&D is going to have a future, it needs leadership that cares about more than the next quarterly earnings statement. Frankly, I just don't see that happening under Hasbro. In a way, I feel worst for the people who actually work on the game...they clearly care, and they deserve a company that does, too. :(

I'd be surprised if they have no strategy. The designers have made various references to "the plan" which suggests to me they've at least talked about it. I don't think it's a very good one, but 5E's development and release hasn't been particularly chaotic apart from the digital issue.

Shadow Lodge

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The plan is to claim to have a plan and just hope no one sees through the bluff.

Shadow Lodge

Adjule wrote:
I think an OGL is good for the hobby. It may not be good for a certain business, but I feel it is for the hobby as a whole.

I think in the long run it was good for the community, but I dunno if that was true at first. The early years of 3.0 (and running into the first few years of 3.5 as well) saw a glut of some pretty crappy OGL releases.

Not to mention the push (seemingly spearheaded by Monte Cook) for d20 to be the ONLY system. Seriously, how many great (or even mediocre) games had inferior d20 editions published? :P

Shadow Lodge

Since we're on the subject, Paizo itself isn't at the cutting edge of technology when it comes to their electronic releases. They don't offer tablet versions of their books, and they don't utilize the full extend of technology available for their PDFs.

Chaosium has begun to put their books out not only in PDF, but also EPUB and MOBI, for the convenience of tablet users. 0One Games makes amazing use of the layer functionality of PDFs to make their map products as useful as possible. Want a player-friendly version of the map? Want a GM-version with all the secrets shown? Want just the basic structure, with all the furnishings stripped away? Want to get rid of the square/hex grid? Want a printer-friendly version? Click the appropriate buttons, and print. 0One lets you do most of these things on most of their maps.

Lamentation of the Flame Princess has put out a few products that make extensive use of in-document links (Carcosa has a map that lets you click on any hex and it takes you to the description of that hex).


Kthulhu wrote:

Since we're on the subject, Paizo itself isn't at the cutting edge of technology when it comes to their electronic releases. They don't offer tablet versions of their books, and they don't utilize the full extend of technology available for their PDFs.

Chaosium has begun to put their books out not only in PDF, but also EPUB and MOBI, for the convenience of tablet users. 0One Games makes amazing use of the layer functionality of PDFs to make their map products as useful as possible. Want a player-friendly version of the map? Want a GM-version with all the secrets shown? Want just the basic structure, with all the furnishings stripped away? Want to get rid of the square/hex grid? Want a printer-friendly version? Click the appropriate buttons, and print. 0One lets you do most of these things on most of their maps.

Lamentation of the Flame Princess has put out a few products that make extensive use of in-document links (Carcosa has a map that lets you click on any hex and it takes you to the description of that hex).

I <3 layered PDFs. But at this point, I'd settle for 5E PDFs of any stripe.


Steve Geddes wrote:
I'd be surprised if they have no strategy. The designers have made various references to "the plan" which suggests to me they've at least talked about it. I don't think it's a very good one, but 5E's development and release hasn't been particularly chaotic apart from the digital issue.

Unless their digital strategy is "punch ourselves in the face," it isn't working. And hasn't been for at least five years. :P


You can buy the first, second, and third (3.5) core rulebooks. They were printed last year and still have not sold out of the print run I think.

They also reprinted OD&D (at a VERY high price), not sure if that one sold out of the print run or not, but be prepared to spend a pretty penny on it if you want that one. Of course it's not as much as an original set, but still rather high for what you get.

And, it appears as I stated before, the strategy is to not have PDF sales dig into hardcopy sales, and vice versa. Hence, neither can be in print at the same time...at least from appearances.

I think they had a digital plan that may have had a compromise to this, but it went down in flames. Who knows what they are scrambling to do now.


bugleyman wrote:
Steve Geddes wrote:
I'd be surprised if they have no strategy. The designers have made various references to "the plan" which suggests to me they've at least talked about it. I don't think it's a very good one, but 5E's development and release hasn't been particularly chaotic apart from the digital issue.
Unless their digital strategy is "punch ourselves in the face," it isn't working. And hasn't been for at least five years. :P

Where I generally struggle in interpreting wotc's actions wrt D&D is that I don't know what their strategic goals are. It makes it difficult to understand their tactical choices.

Someone posted an interesting report from ICv2 regarding the relative sizes of the miniature, board game, card game and TTRPG markets which shed some light, I think. It wouldn't surprise me if they just want the tabletop game ticking along in the background whilst they push all the other bits and pieces. Maybe the lack of a digital presence is as simple as apathy - obviously they had been following the outsourced route to some degree. I wonder if the hesitancy partly stems from lack of resources.

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