I come seeking opinions and help once again!
Is there a simple and cheap way (so no constant Giant Form or Shapechange) to make a magic item that would be able to turn a medium outsider into a large one? Full on outsider, not a native one. We're thinking of using it on a demon.
You would need to find something that doesn't you the spell enlarge person to do it. Unfortunately, the only other one I can think of that changes the size of non-animal is righteous might, which is a personal spell.
If the demon has a good UMD skill he could use scrolls of (Un)righteous Might.
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I'd recommend points in UMD + Dangerously Curious(if you don't/can't have UMD as a class skill or your CHA stinks), a Wand Key Ring tied to that Wand, and a Wand of Enlarge(or something else that makes you bigger). If not that, then Potions of Enlarge works just fine, or a friendly Wizard/OtherClass that can cast it on you.
Righteous Might is another good one, but I think that one is a Personal casting.
There is also the Growth Domain...
He can not use Enalrge Person Kazumetsa. Enlarge person specifies humanoid targets. Outsider are not humanoids, they are outsider type.
Humanoids are like humans, which are humanoid(human). And elves are humanoid(elf). Enlarge person will never work.
Growth Domain would work if the demon somehow had a level in cleric, since it bypasses the target line restriciton.
Drinking horn of bottomless valor enlarges as the spell Enlarge Person. Does that let you weasel around the Humanoid restriction? It costs 24k, but it can be reused daily for 10 minutes and it grants your demonic pal temporary HP and the Heroism spell.
Why do people think magic items have to exactly follow the rules of the spells used in their creation? This is stated nowhere in the rules.
They don't necessarily need to duplicate the effects of the spell. However, that is usually the default assumption, unless stated otherwise in the item description, for determining effect and pricing. See the Magic section of the core rulebook on dealing with spells and other "magical effects" (for things like counterspelling, detect magic, and dispel magic, saving throws, etc., the effects from both a magic item and a spell are treated almost identically).
Specific to this topic, you could create an enlarge outsider spell that only affects creatures of the outsider type, instead of humanoids (or a magic item that enlarges outsiders instead of humanoids). However, pricing becomes an issue because the vast majority of the PCs are assumed to be of the humanoid type (and such an item would throw off WBL).
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Why do people think magic items have to exactly follow the rules of the spells used in their creation? This is stated nowhere in the rules.
Bracers of armor give more then the +4 from mage armor, belts of physical stats can go up to +6, gloves of storing use the 'shrink item' spell even though that spell does nothing to store items in extra-dimensional spaces.
Make a magic item using enlarge person as the component spell, ignore the humanoid limitation, and price it appropriately.
No one's saying anything about the spells used in creation. The examples that have been provided all have effects that say "...as the enlarge person spell" and therefore have to adhere to the parameters of the enlarge person spell. In this case , the fact that it only effects humanoids.
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Yes I get that. But this is the Rules Forum. The OP isn't asking for a homebrew item. He's looking for a way to make an item using the RAW rules for constructing custom items. The spells used in the items creation are not relevant here, only what the item DOES. The custom item creation rules only support the ability to duplicate spell effects, not create brand new ones.
Of course, if I am wrong and the OP is in fact looking for a homebrew item then I move this thread be transferred to the homebrew forums.
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Ugh...
Again. Ignore the spell ingredient for creation, no one here except for you is talking about that. You are absolutely right, the spell ingredient has nothing to do with the items actual function. However, that is not relevant at all to what we are talking about here, please stop being hung up on that part.
The custom item creation rules have no means of creating brand new effects, all it can do is duplicate existing ones (again, NOT talking about the ingredient here). You can alter existing effects, but only within the boundaries of the provided formulae. You could for instance create a magic item that has casts a continuous protection from evil effect on the player, the RAW supports the creation of an item like this because it actually spells it out, with a formula and everything. This item would cost 4,000gp, this is RAW.
There is no RAW way to make a magic item that makes an medium outsider large. A GM is welcome to homebrew something, and would certainly seem plenty reasonable to do so, but again it is not covered by RAW.
One more time for good measure, I am NOT talking about the spell ingredient for items creation. That does not matter, only the items function matters for RAW.
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RAW means Rules as Written. In Pathfinder if there are no rules laying out how to do something then you can't do it, by RAW. You can't wave your hands in the air, or do jumping jacks, or whistle or a number of things without a GM allowing you to because there are no rules stating that you can or what kind of action it is. That is how RAW works, if the rules don't cover it, and HOW to do it, you can't do it by RAW, a GM has to allow it.
Now that we have figured out what RAW is lets look at this.
As you've say, "Nothing exactly fits", that put the kibosh on it right there. There IS nothing that fits it exactly, there ARE no rules to support making that exact item. As you say, you could make an enlarge person item, that works just fine, but there are no rules for altering an effect slightly, that is entirely in the realm of GM call since it is not covered by RAW.
...using that price as a guide."
This phrase puts the whole thing in the GM's hands, the player cannot make this call. Only the GM can. Which again pulls it out of RAW and into GM hands.
"would suggest a bump up in price to get rid of humanoid limitation"
How are you believing that this is covered by RAW after you just said this? That whole sentence by definition means its a GM call because the rules don't lay out a price for bumping up the cost due to an alteration of that nature.
If you do still truly believe you can make this item by RAW, tell me exactly how much this item would cost by RAW? Not how much you THINK it should cost, that's not RAW. Exactly how much it costs so that no one on these boards could dispute that number. Go.
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RAW the DM is allowed to create custom magic items, sure. RAW the DM has a lot of power outside of PFS. It's also completely irrelevant. RAW the player has no precedent to do so without involving the DM. The player is pretty obviously asking for an item or ability which wouldn't require DM fiat, or else why bother asking the forum in the first place? 'Make a custom item lol' isn't really helpful for anyone.
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It would cost enlarge person + 30%.
And I already gave you the exact RAW language that allows you to do this, it's a two step process, exactly by RAW:
step 1:
figure out enlarge person magic item just like your prot from evil item. Think we both agree here.
step 2:
NOW you have an item to compare the enlarge outsider item to, as per the RAW language.
Just what do you think RAW means when RAW says to use a price as a guide? The Rules As Written say use the price as a guide, that's not RAI, that's not homebrew, that's RAW.
If the RAW tells the DM they have discretion to adjust certain things about the game, they are following the RAW when they use that discretion.
Disallowing a 2000gp True Stike item is not homebrew, it's supported by RAW. Similarly, disallowing a 2000gp infinite CLW items is not homebrew, it's RAW, because RAW specifically provides that discretion.
However, if you have RAW that suggests otherwise, please quote it.
If you do still truly believe you can make this item by RAW, tell me exactly how much this item would cost by RAW? Not how much you THINK it should cost, that's not RAW. Exactly how much it costs so that no one on these boards could dispute that number. Go.Let me get this straight. Your criteria for RAW is something that can't be disputed by anyone on these boards?
Holy crap, there is no RAW!
Where are you getting that +30%, that was the part I wanted you to call out. That +30% came from your own imaginings. It's pretty realistic, and I'd probably go with something similar...but the fact of the matter is it isn't covered by RAW, by Rules as Written since it isn't Written.
My criteria for RAW doesn't matter, what RAW IS is a rule that is spelled out without need GM fiat because it is written in ink by the developers already. Magic Missile is a 1st level spell that deals force damage and unerringly hits its target. That is all RAW, I can point that out to you where it's written and there is not a single person on this board that can refute that because it is RAW and can be proven without need for interpretation, just a simple glance at the Magic Missile entry. However, can I shoot a magic missile at a stalagtite and make it fall on a Dragon? RAW, no because there is no rules to support it, no one can point to the book and say, "See this paragraph lays out exactly how to do that and how much damage it deals" because rules do not exist for it. The GM may allow it, but he would need to make something up because he has no written rules for handling it, ergo, not RAW.
Are you starting to understand what RAW is now? If it is not Written, it is not RAW. That +30% is not written and therefore is no RAW.
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You seem to have a poor grasp of what RAW is even after I've broken it down for you. There is no reason to keep arguing that the sky is blue when the blind man says it's red.
Therefore....
1) If OP was asking for a RAW answer he's been given one. It can't be done using the RAW guidelines the Core Rulebook has laid out.
2) If OP is asking for help making a custom homebrew item outside of the Core Rulebooks RAW guideline's then I direct him to the homebrew forums where he will have more luck since the Rules Forums are for Rules Questions.
Godspeed.
The issue is that RAW usually refers to a requirement that leads to a deterministic answer usable by a player to decide specifically what he can or cannot do regardless of the DM (with the exception of house rules) . If you do A you get B every time. Thought the book spells out how the DM can decide in the case of a custom magic item, it is just an encouragment and not really a rule that one can rely on to accomplish anything. Just because it is in the manual does not nessecarily make it a rule, just like flavor text or a description is not a rule. It adds to the game but isnt a definitive.
Also any items created that allow for effects not present in the game are by definition Homebrew.
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Otherwise, why include the magic item creation table and rules in the first place?
I just want to point out that the table itself is called "Estimating Magic Item Gold Piece Value".
Basically the chapter exists because players exist, and using it relies on dm approval because 3.x editions couldn't come up with a good crafting chart that wasn't inherently exploitable.
You can follow the estimations to make an amulet of cure light wounds at will for something like 2k gold. A dm will look at it, and either adjust the price upwards, or just start laughing.
It's useful when trying to guess a ballpark for yourself for many items, but you can't ever say "This custom item will cost this much."
We can suggest our version of the estimation cost, but there's no hard fact behind it. That's why it's a more fitting question for the homebrew forum.
Personally, given the implications involved with allowing humanoid specific spells to cross those boundaries, I'd price such an item closer to 40,000g or more myself, if I allowed it in my game in the first place.
But, as is always the answer when discussing custom items, you need to ask your gm. Also, explain how you're planning on using it. Better to be upfront than to put your dm in a position to have to adjust it after you paid for it.
Is it for PFS?
If not, research a "enlarge monster" spell
Other spells change person to monster by adding 2 spell levels (dominate person -> dominate monster)
Or houserule a meta magic feat that does this...
Researching new spells requires GM approval.
Can we all agree that the OP was looking for something that does not require GM approval to custom create something? Whether that thing be a magical item or a new spell is irrelevant.
The answer appears to be pretty much a no.
UMD with scrolls of Righteous Might is the closest he can get within the rules without having to get special approval from the GM.