I am attempting to build a Skald that will be highly effective at Tripping opponents. The basic idea is to work in tandem with another player where we double team mobs, trip them and destroy them before they can stand (or if they do stand take AoO).
Human
Skald
Feats:
1.Weapon Focus
Human Bonus. Combat Expertise
2. Improved Trip
Eventually picking up Greater Trip as well
My question is, since the Trip attempt is based on my "To Hit" roll vs the opponents CMD, my question is are there any other ways to increase my "to hit" other than my STR bonus, BAB, and Weapon Focus?
Magic weapons, Fury's Fall lets you add your dex. heroism, inspire courage, flanking, being larger, invisible, and then some teamwork feats are about tripping.
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I don't like trip builds because there are too damn many things that either have no legs, too many legs, or fly. On top of that, CMD grows faster than CMB.
That said, your trip attack is not based on your to hit, it's based on you CMB. Being a weapon based maneuver, you can add weapon feats, enhance bonuses and so on to the roll, but it's still based on your CMB, not BAB.
If you really want to make the trip successful, True Strike.
Anything that effects an attack effects the CMB.
He want's the skald to boost his son's slayer. He determined that the skald would be the best booster for the slayer and be able to make stories of the slayer's adventures.
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Krell --
There's a guide to Trip Builds in Pathfinder that I found interesting.
I do agree though that at higher levels of play, trip builds stall because creatures start flying at you. Don't invest too much into it unless you are planning this just for low levels.
That said... your Skald's best bet may be the grease spell. My sorceress uses it in conjunction with her reach cleric partner where I make them fall down and Omar takes advantage of the attacks of opportunity. It works really, really well if your DC is high enough.
It is too bad that Thunderstomp is not on the Bard list... It would be another awesome option for a magical trip. But maybe you Skald can use spell kenning for it, or for Greater Thunderstomp!
Hmm
PS I was going to PM you, but I cannot find a way to do it. I think it is so cute how you work with your son in PFS!
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Improved Trip: +2 Trip
Greater Trip: +2 Trip
Fury's Fall: +Dex to Trip CMB
Dusty Rose Ioun Stone in Wayfinder: +2 Insight to CMB/CMD
Gauntlets of the Skilled Maneuver (Trip): +2
Belt of STR: (+STR Mod)
Cracked Pale Green Ioun Stone: +1 competence, attack
Other:
Dueling Enchant
Cracked violet ioun stone with True Strike: +20
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He want's the skald to boost his son's slayer. He determined that the skald would be the best booster for the slayer and be able to make stories of the slayer's adventures.
Hm, okay. I'm afraid I don't know much about skalds, so I've no new help to offer. Best of luck to the OP!
Thanks for all the tips!
I am really interested in helping my son get to experience the Big Damage strikes on an enemy, and am interested in any "simple" ways to assist him, while staying somewhat viable in combat myself. I thought a Trip build would be useful as it would help both of us, but I'm wondering if there might be something else out there that works better.
Basically, looking for something that will lower an enemies defenses to allow our party to hit with bonuses.
Please note, this is for PFS and I have access to the CRB, APG, and ACG as well as Ultimate Equipment. UNfortunately, Butterfly Sting is out unless I can dig up some extra cash.
To Hmm: Thanks! He and I have a blast playing together, and currently I get to play the heavy hitter while he keeps me alive. I want him to get to see how it feels. :)
However, I may just try to build us both with as large a crit range as possible (Falcata 19-20 maybe) and play as the Spell Warrior Skald, using the "Keen" bonus to his weapon song and doubling our threat range for criticals. Just go big damage big threat range and roll high.
I have yet to play a Reach build...would it be useful if we both attacked from distance like that? Pick up combat reflexes and control the battlefield by forcing the enemy away from us, or into our AoO?
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Krell --
You might be interested in this thread on the viability of trip builds in PFS from the PFS General Discussion forum. It has some ideas and builds that you might want to look at.
Hmm
I was going to suggest going halfling with Helpful to aid another at a +4, but that requires the halfling book.
For his build, I'd say a two-hand fighter (APG) would help a lot for the "big damage" feel due to getting 2x str on two hand weapons.
Tripping remains fairly viable throughout a pfs career given the preponderence of humanoid enemies. Everyone has provided a pretty solid list of buffs to cmb for tripping. The only caveat is that to get weapon boosts to cmb is that you'll need to use a weapon with the trip ability. Flails are good for that, guisarmes might be better for you.
You don't need the trip weapon quality. All that does is let you drop the weapon if you fail by 5 or more. Any weapon you use gives it's bonuses to the trip attempt.
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Tripping remains fairly viable throughout a pfs career given the preponderence of humanoid enemies. Everyone has provided a pretty solid list of buffs to cmb for tripping. The only caveat is that to get weapon boosts to cmb is that you'll need to use a weapon with the trip ability. Flails are good for that, guisarmes might be better for you.
This is not true. The only thing a trip weapon does is let you drop the weapon instead of fall prone if you fail your trip roll by ten or more. If you're using a +1 longsword, you get its +1 to your trip attempt.
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However, a trip weapon will allow you to utilize the bonus on the reposition maneuver with it as well, which the +1 longsword will not.
Source for this ruling.
Makes dipping into improved reposition + tactical reposition a lot more fun :)
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However, a trip weapon will allow you to utilize the bonus on the reposition maneuver with it as well, which the +1 longsword will not.
Source for this ruling.
Makes dipping into improved reposition + tactical reposition a lot more fun :)
That's true, a weapon with the trip quality is worth more than just what I said.
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However, a trip weapon will allow you to utilize the bonus on the reposition maneuver with it as well, which the +1 longsword will not.
Source for this ruling.
Makes dipping into improved reposition + tactical reposition a lot more fun :)
Interesting. While it didn't come out and say it (so not for PFS, *heavy sigh*) the strong implication is that an AoMF would apply to dirty trick, since all dirty tricks can be implied to be done with one's hands. (For a monk I'd probably just argue that you're going for mystic pressure points.)
Interesting. While it didn't come out and say it (so not for PFS, *heavy sigh*) the strong implication is that an AoMF would apply to dirty trick, since all dirty tricks can be implied to be done with one's hands. (For a monk I'd probably just argue that you're going for mystic pressure points.)However, a trip weapon will allow you to utilize the bonus on the reposition maneuver with it as well, which the +1 longsword will not.
Source for this ruling.
Makes dipping into improved reposition + tactical reposition a lot more fun :)
I disagree. You don't need a weapon to perform a dirty trick.
You could be a human wizard with Combat Expertise and Improved Dirty Trick, no weapons, and perform a dirty trick without provoking. If you used your unarmed strike to do that, it should provoke and take -4 for non-proficiency.
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Interesting. While it didn't come out and say it (so not for PFS, *heavy sigh*) the strong implication is that an AoMF would apply to dirty trick, since all dirty tricks can be implied to be done with one's hands. (For a monk I'd probably just argue that you're going for mystic pressure points.)However, a trip weapon will allow you to utilize the bonus on the reposition maneuver with it as well, which the +1 longsword will not.
Source for this ruling.
Makes dipping into improved reposition + tactical reposition a lot more fun :)
The AoMF doesn't enhance "your hands", it gives an enhancement bonus to the weapon called "unarmed strike". Per the FAQ blog in the link, unarmed strikes are considered a weapon for the purpose of the topic at hand, so a maneuver that doesn't use a weapon doesn't use unarmed strikes, and therefore the AoMF doesn't apply.
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Interesting. While it didn't come out and say it (so not for PFS, *heavy sigh*) the strong implication is that an AoMF would apply to dirty trick, since all dirty tricks can be implied to be done with one's hands. (For a monk I'd probably just argue that you're going for mystic pressure points.)However, a trip weapon will allow you to utilize the bonus on the reposition maneuver with it as well, which the +1 longsword will not.
Source for this ruling.
Makes dipping into improved reposition + tactical reposition a lot more fun :)
I disagree. You don't need a weapon to perform a dirty trick.
You could be a human wizard with Combat Expertise and Improved Dirty Trick, no weapons, and perform a dirty trick without provoking. If you used your unarmed strike to do that, it should provoke and take -4 for non-proficiency.
I agree. However, please read the link. From said link
Of course, the GM is free to rule that in certain circumstances, a creature can apply weapon bonuses for these maneuvers, such as when using a sap in a dirty trick maneuver to hit an opponent in a sensitive spot.
As one could reasonably use their hands for any sort of dirty trick, there's an argument that their AoMS could apply its bonus to said dirty tricks. Again - I'm not saying that it's official enough for PFS etc, but there's certainly an argument there, especially if you fluff your dirty tricks as pressure point attacks etc.
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Doesn't matter how much your Dirty Trick uses your hands, your hands aren't what's being enhanced by an AoMF. The same question came up a while back about AoMF and grapples (it uses your hands, right?), but the ruling was that no, the AoMF does not help with grapples.
I'd say you could state, "I am making a dirty trick via unarmed strike by XYZ" and request your unarmed strike modifiers to apply (weapon focus, aomf, etc). The default assumption however is that you are doing it without a weapon.
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I'd say you could state, "I am making a dirty trick via unarmed strike by XYZ" and request your unarmed strike modifiers to apply (weapon focus, aomf, etc). The default assumption however is that you are doing it without a weapon.
However, while I suggested fluffing dirty trick as pressure point attacks, that is covered by Stunning Fist and the rainbow of status conditions provided by the X Fist feats in the ACG.
The fact is, absent a clear exception such as Ustalavic Duelist or Dirty Fighter, Dirty trick is not a weapon based maneuver, and cannot be performed as part of an attack action.
Update:
Rolling an Intimidate Build Skald.
Human Skald
(May select the Spell Warrior archetype, but had a question as to when he can start handing out the bonus abilities to weapons, in particular Keen) It sounds as if the first point must be spent giving the Weapon a +1 bonus, but if the weapon is already magical you can instead apply Keen to it. So, when is it that the Skald can give out a 2nd point? Not until 5th level?
One Handed Weapon/Shield
STR-14
DEX-14
CON-14
Int-10
WIS-10
CHA-16
Trait:Deft Dodger (+1 REF Sv)
Trait:Bully (+1 Intimidate)
Human Feat: Weapon Focus
1st Level Feat: Intimidating Prowess
3rd Level Feat: Persuasive
5th Level Feat: Dazzling Display
3rd Level Rage Power: Lesser Undead Blood-For Shaken Affect on Successful Charge
Sons Slayer Build
Human
2-Handed Weapon
STR:18
DEX:14
CON:14
INT:12
WIS:12
CHA:7
Trait:Reactionary (+2 Initiative)
Trait:Indomitable Faith (+1 Will Sv)
Human Feat: Exotic Weapon Prof
1st Level Feat: Weapon Focus
3rd Level Feat: Power Attack
5th Level Feat: Combat Reflexes
2nd Level Slayer Talent: Poison Use
4th Level Slayer Talent: Swift Poison
The basic idea is we will work together in melee, trying to give each other flanking opportunities. I will Intimidate in an effort to make our target Shaken, and then we cut it down. He will be selecting some type of fancy two-handed weapon which gives him Reach. If I do go with the Spell Warrior archetype we will work on the Keen chant to increase our chances at Critical strikes. He wants to use Sneak Attack and Poison to further mess with opponents. I am certain this is not the most optimal for us, but we think it will be fun.
I am open to any tips and suggestions. We are PFS players with access to the CRB, APG, ACG, and Ultimate Equipment. Please do not make suggestions that would require us to pick up additional resources as that is not in the budget atm. Thanks!
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I would stay core skald. Spell warrior is interesting but it has some weird rules problems that crop up with giving people rage powers only with its raging song (which it gives up).
Since you are planning on attacking shaken enemies, one or both of you should make use of a cruel weapon to also make your enemy sickened. You could even look into Arcane and Riving Strike, because at that point someone you're attacking is at –6 to their saves, which means a great target for a glitterdust or a grease.
Your slayer partner could progress into Dazzling Display and get Shatter Defences by level 6, which would mean sneak attack against shaken enemies.
What defines a weapon as magical? +1 at least...Im assuming Masterwork does not count.
Wasnt really sure about the exotic weapon prof to tell you the truth....may just drop that and get a Falchion or Nodachi for the 18-20 crit range....with Keen that rolls to 15-20. So just need to save his gold for a magical Falchion. Then, that frees up a feat for Power Attack.Then, he can choose something fun for his 5th level feat.
Where do I find information on a "cruel" weapon? * * * Never mind, found it * * *
So, how much gold are we talking to make a Falchion "cruel"?
Are you familiar with the PRD?
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateEquipment/magicArmsAndArmor/weap onSpecialAbilities.html
Weapon special abilities, cruel costs a +1 bonus.
You have to have a +1 bonus before you can add any additional bonuses, so minimum for a cruel falchion would be a +2 weapon. Or 8000gp + 300 (masterwork) + 75 (cost of falchion) = 8375gp for a +1 cruel falchion.
* * UPDATE * *
Sons Slayer Build
Human
2-Handed Weapon: Falchion
STR:18
DEX:14
CON:14
INT:12
WIS:12
CHA:7
Trait:Reactionary (+2 Initiative)
Trait:Indomitable Faith (+1 Will Sv)
Human Feat: Power Attack
1st Level Feat: Weapon Focus: Falchion
3rd Level Feat: Combat Reflexes
5th Level Feat: Dazzling Display
2nd Level Slayer Talent: Poison Use
4th Level Slayer Talent: Swift Poison
6th Level Slayer Talent: Shatter Defenses
The plan being to work in tandem with my Spell Warrior Skald and take advantage of the weapon enchant "song" to get Keen ability on our magical weapons to increase our Crit range. Currently, I am still sold on the Spell Warrior but Mergy mentioned something about a possible issue with sharing rage powers under that build. Is there more information on specifically what the issue is? I am not as concerned with sharing rage powers as I am in getting everyone a bonus to their magical weapons. Perhaps I am way off base here on the value.
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Here's the issue. A base skald gets a raging song called inspired rage. At level 3 and every 3 levels after that the skald gets a rage power which affects the skald and his allies when they are under the influence of his inspired rage.
The spell warrior archetype loses inspired rage but still gains rage powers that he will never be able to use.
Trust me, you can do a lot better giving your slayer buddy something like Reckless Abandon (+1 to attack rolls for –1 to AC, increasing the bonus and penalty by +1 for every four levels) than just making your weapons keen. Keen is pretty easy to get, and your slayer could even just grab Improved Critical (falchion).
I know your slayer partner is enthralled with poison, but another option is to make use of those ranger combat feats. In addition to having a great two-handed warrior, he could grab Rapid Shot (and Manyshot and Improved Precise Shot later on) so that he could fight at range.
So, what you are saying is that even the Skald would not benefit from the Rage powers taken? That just seems broken to me. I'm not saying you are wrong, I'm simply saying that may have not been the intention when this archetype was created, but as written it sure seems that would be the case. Thats just silly.
I will talk with him about making his character more viable as a ranged combatant as well. Seems to make sense, but so far in our PFS play we haven't seen the need for a balance. I imagine that will come along as we advance past 5th, 6th and 7th level.
Thanks!
* * Update Again * *
Human Feat: Power Attack
1st Level Feat: Weapon Focus: Falchion
3rd Level Feat: Combat Reflexes
5th Level Feat: Dazzling Display
2nd Level Slayer Talent: Rapid Shot
4th Level Slayer Talent: Many Shot
6th Level Slayer Talent: Shatter Defenses
That way, at 6th level he has his basic melee abilities covered, plus the additional ranged abilities with the bonus of not having to buy poisons until later in his progression if he still wants to poison his blade.
I believe my Skald will stick with Inspired Rage for the reasons listed above. Also, the simple fact that I didnt realize my party members within range would also benefit from my Rage powers as well. Now, to select the proper Rage power at 3rd level. Given it is PFS and we are only going to adventure until level 12, I could take the Beast Totem line and end up with Pounce for everyone at level 10 by taking the Feat Extra Rage Power. For a melee heavy group that would be quite nice I think. Are there better options? What would the casters like?
I think the intention was 2. You gain rage powers, but can't grant them to others.
We decided on Intimidate over Trip, and my son's Slayer will have a sneak attack bonus, and I plan on using Grease as well. I am just looking for the "best" low level build ideas for his Slayer and my Skald to work together.
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The slayer build looks solid, but you won't be able to get Manyshot at level 4. You can either grab poison use then, or you can get Weapon Focus at level 4 with the rogue talent option and get Furious Focus at level one instead. Another good feat would be Quick Draw, as you can draw a melee or ranged weapon easily that way.
For rage powers, I would really take a look at Reckless Abandon. It's such a big accuracy buff, especially with the stat bonuses you're giving as well. It doesn't stack with heroism, but it's still amazing.
Why would I not be able to take Manyshot as my level 4 Slayer talent? Is it because of the BAB? I thought I read that you could select any talent available regardless of prerequisites/requirements. Of course, I may have read that wrong.
Ranger Combat Style (Ex): The slayer selects a ranger combat style (such as archery or two-weapon combat) and gains a combat feat from the first feat list of that style. He can choose feats from his selected combat style, even if he does not have the normal prerequisites. At 6th level, he may select this talent again and add the 6th-level ranger combat feats from his chosen style to the list. At 10th level, he may select this talent again and add the 10th-level ranger combat feats from his chosen style to the list.
At 6th level, he may select this talent again and add the 6th-level ranger combat feats from his chosen style to the list.
At 4th, you can only select from the first set of Ranger combat feats. For archery, those are: Far Shot, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, and Rapid Shot.
Ahhhh, go me.
Krell Poison in PFS is kindof useless. It doesnt take effect quick enough for it to be of any noticible difference. Plus most of the save DC's are rather low.