I heard about how strong Color Spray was, long before I actually knew what it actually was.
Being a GM and also now actually playing my first arcane caster, I've been avoiding using the spell (because I consider it cheap) but I really have to wonder why it's heads above all the other level 1 spells.
Comparing Colour Spray to Sleep for example (which I think is the closest comparison)
Colour Spray
Stand Action Cast
Stun and blind both require level 3 spells to cure
Can affect enemies of any level
Does not work on sightless enemies
Duration variable
Range 15ft Cone
Sleep
Full Round Cast time
Sleeping creatures can be woken with a stand action
Only works on 4HD or less
Does not work on elves, undead and anything that doesn't sleep
Duration of 1 min per level
Range 100ft x 5 squares
The only thing that Sleep has is range and duration yet I don't think they're nearly balanced enough vs stun+blind+no level cap
Why on earth is Colour Spray so good compared to all the other level 1 spells???
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I don't know why it feels so good to be a gangsta, mom
it just does
Color spray is certainly a good 1st-level spell, but it's not "the best" 1st-level spell, and it's very much on the same power level as other spells.
This is one of the spells that's very useful at low character levels, and gets increasingly less useful at higher levels. (In that sense, it's like sleep.)
Look at the spell's limitations:
1. Will negates. If you save, nothing happens.
2. Its range is 15-foot cone. That means seven squares, one of which is adjacent to the caster. The caster has to get very close to enemies to use the spell. To catch its maximum number of targets, the caster has to cast defensively.
3. The spell duration is short-- a variable number of rounds. The duration is NOT dependent on the caster level.
4. As an Illusion (pattern) spell, it affects creatures that can see and are not mindless. Vermin, skeletons/zombies, most constructs, and anything that can't see are immune.
5. As enemies get tougher, the spell becomes less and less effective:
- 2HD or less: Out of the action (unconscoious or stunned) for average of 8.5 rounds.
- 3 or 4 HD: Out of the action (stunned) for average of 4 rounds.
- 5 HD or more: Out of the action (stunned) for 1 round.
So, it's a very good spell for a 1st-level spellcaster, where you'll mostly be fighting goblin warriors and giant rats. Even then, spell is useless against skeletons or centipedes.
It's not that great a choice for a 7th-level spellcaster. At that level, burning hands has the same area of effect and does 5d4 fire damage to anything not immune to fire. (Reflex save half)
An area-affect spell that potentially stuns all targets is incredibly powerful, no matter how you slice it. Mass hold person is 7th level, and only works on humanoids.
Because you compared it to one of 2 or 3 other first level spells that are stronger than it (situationaly). Compare it to mount, magic aura, ventriloquism, erase, or jump. Or even, enlarge person, feather fall, magic missile, true strike, SM I, or grease.
It is strong. Definitely a top 5 (probably top 3) first level spell.
Another point: compare color spray to sound burst, which affects a slightly larger area and deals 1d8 damage, but has no chance of blindness or unconsciousness and so on, and always lasts only 1 round. Sound burst is a 2nd level spell, and no one honestly says, "That should really be 1st, it's so weak!" You could push both that and color spray to 3rd and I wouldn't cry over the decision.
Hey man, arcane caster's need something to do for the first 2 levels of the game. As much fun as it is to spend every other round reloading your crossbow, it gets real old by the second month of it, and having spells that can shut down an encounter makes you feel like maybe someday you will be effective.
It's also only really powerful against groups. In single-enemy encounters, anyone with a two hander and power attack is going to end the fight in a round or two anyway, it's just a matter of the fighter rolling a d20 attack roll or the enemy rolling a d20 will save.
In-play, it's extremely rare to be able to catch more than 2 or 3 bad guys in the area of a 15-foot cone.
For a 1st level spell to instantly take 2-3 enemies (of almost any type, any number of HD) out of the fight is still pretty impressive.
In my games, it's been hard to use it at all without catching allies in the area.
For a 1st level spell to instantly take 2-3 enemies (of almost any type, any number of HD) out of the fight is still pretty impressive.
Regarding any number of HD: Stunning an enemy for one round is not going to take them out of the fight unless you already have someone ready to CDG them. You're likely to take one enemy out of the fight.
At low levels it's awesome when it works and horrifying in the few cases that it doesn't. At higher levels it's nice if you have nothing better to do with your low-level slots, but you'd better have all of your defensive buffs up already.
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Regarding any number of HD: Stunning an enemy for one round is not going to take them out of the fight unless you already have someone ready to CDG them. You're likely to take one enemy out of the fight.
Spending 1/4 of my team's actions (1/8 if we're counting Quickened spells) to deprive 2-3 enemy combatants of their actions that round is usually a really good trade.
Regarding any number of HD: Stunning an enemy for one round is not going to take them out of the fight unless you already have someone ready to CDG them. You're likely to take one enemy out of the fight.Spending 1/4 of my team's actions (1/8 if we're counting Quickened spells) to deprive 2-3 enemy combatants of their actions that round is usually a really good trade.
Well, it might be if I believed that 2-3 opponents would fail their saves.
At 10th level, a monster's poor save is typically a 9. My casting stat at 10th level is typically a 24 or so, the saving throw for a first level spell would be 10+1+7 or 18. Monsters with poor will saves therefore need a 9 to save and save 60% of the time.
I can hit a maximum of 6 medium-sized creatures with the spell, assuming perfect positioning. 4 of them will make their save. So under perfect conditions 2-3 opponents will fail their save and lose their actions.
Under realistic conditions, the spell's probably useless. Either the creatures aren't the right size, don't have a weak will save, or aren't positioned perfectly.
So a 1st level spell isn't an auto-win any more at 10th level? Oh noes! It's still insanely good.
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So a 1st level spell isn't an auto-win any more at 10th level? Oh noes! It's still insanely good.
It wasn't an auto-win at first level. It is almost an auto-lose at 10th.
It forces the caster to step into the line of combat and throw a low-percentage save-or-lose spell at a small number of opponents.
It's a good spell at first level. It's somewhere among poor, wretched, and utter crap at 10th.
Regarding any number of HD: Stunning an enemy for one round is not going to take them out of the fight unless you already have someone ready to CDG them. You're likely to take one enemy out of the fight.
Just FYI, you can't CDG someone who is stunned (unlike someone who is asleep or held.)
Strong spell, boring when overused. Short range, HD-limit (for anything more than 1 round of stun), mind-affecting and sight-based keep it limited.
Why is a barbarian with 20 STR and a 2 handed weapon does so much damage at level 1? Why does a level 2 paladin has incredible saves?
It's context sensitive that is all, color spray is a great level 1 spell because inflicting 1d4 damage or 1d6 damage is useless in most low level situations. Maths that is why, most martials are able to one shot anything with damage, you cannot. Better use save or die spells or smart buffs spells. Examples:
*Vanish* is way more OP when you think about it, invisible charging barbarian!
*Protection against evil* gives 2 deflection bonus, +2 on saves and allow to save again versus mind affecting spells.
*Grease* allow you to disarm opponents or make a bunch of them slip on the floor, it work versus practically any target and dos not offer any SR, have you ever seen the face of a GM seeing his precious adamatine golem fall on it's ass?
*Charm person* makes the village mayor your best friend.
*silent image* can hide your whole party from an angry mob.
So yeah color spray is awesome in theory but the real question is, why is *grease* so overpowered in practice?
Regarding any number of HD: Stunning an enemy for one round is not going to take them out of the fight unless you already have someone ready to CDG them. You're likely to take one enemy out of the fight.Just FYI, you can't CDG someone who is stunned (unlike someone who is asleep or held.)
Strong spell, boring when overused. Short range, HD-limit (for anything more than 1 round of stun), mind-affecting and sight-based keep it limited.
You're right. It's even less useful at high levels than I thought. : /
ISTR that some of Color Spray's reputation comes from a rather abusive build (Heaven's Oracle?) that gets to reduce the HD restriction or something. Someone else can probably explain.
Otherwise, it's a decent non-fatal spell at low levels that doesn't drop off a cliff like Sleep, which is almost useless by 4th.
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The thing is, at early levels, it's an AoE save or suck that doesn't just put the bad guys - potentially all the bad guys in the encounter - out for 5 odd rounds. Even 3 odd rounds of stun for bad guys at 4 HD is huge. Most combat encounters don't go longer than that.
You compare that to, say, magic missile, and it's not hard to see why it seems overpowered.
Regarding any number of HD: Stunning an enemy for one round is not going to take them out of the fight unless you already have someone ready to CDG them. You're likely to take one enemy out of the fight.Spending 1/4 of my team's actions (1/8 if we're counting Quickened spells) to deprive 2-3 enemy combatants of their actions that round is usually a really good trade.Well, it might be if I believed that 2-3 opponents would fail their saves.
At 10th level, a monster's poor save is typically a 9. My casting stat at 10th level is typically a 24 or so, the saving throw for a first level spell would be 10+1+7 or 18. Monsters with poor will saves therefore need a 9 to save and save 60% of the time.
I can hit a maximum of 6 medium-sized creatures with the spell, assuming perfect positioning. 4 of them will make their save. So under perfect conditions 2-3 opponents will fail their save and lose their actions.
Under realistic conditions, the spell's probably useless. Either the creatures aren't the right size, don't have a weak will save, or aren't positioned perfectly.
You missed that at level 1, most enemies will be lucky to have a positive will save. Common enemies like Orcs/Kobolds/Goblins have a -1 Will Save. Versus a DC 16 Save or Die. That's a 80% chance of failure. And Goblins have 16 AC, best of luck Mr. I-have-a-50%-chance-to-hit-only-one-of-them-a-turn-Fighter.
Amd Shamans tied to the Heaven's spirit.ISTR that some of Color Spray's reputation comes from a rather abusive build (Heaven's Oracle?) that gets to reduce the HD restriction or something. Someone else can probably explain.Yes, that's the Awesome Display revelation. Available only to Oracles of the Heavens. .
Alas, this is not the case. Heaven Spirit does not have awesome display. Poor Shaman is so misunderstood at the moment.
Another point: compare color spray to sound burst, which affects a slightly larger area and deals 1d8 damage, but has no chance of blindness or unconsciousness and so on, and always lasts only 1 round. Sound burst is a 2nd level spell, and no one honestly says, "That should really be 1st, it's so weak!" You could push both that and color spray to 3rd and I wouldn't cry over the decision.
I think Sound Burst, honestly, should be 1st.
Fireball 2nd (after all it does 1d6/level).
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Fireball 2nd (after all it does 1d6/level).
I think they try to keep all of the big AOE spells off lists until 3rd level spells to keep bunches of 1HD orcs/goblins as a threat until 5th level or so. Cones are far less useful AOEs as they make the caster have to get in close.
Even with only 3d6 damage, a fireball would destroy nearly all of a goblin/orc band. (And that's assuming you didn't have some way to boost the damage further.)
You missed that at level 1, most enemies will be lucky to have a positive will save. Common enemies like Orcs/Kobolds/Goblins have a -1 Will Save. Versus a DC 16 Save or Die. That's a 80% chance of failure. And Goblins have 16 AC, best of luck Mr. I-have-a-50%-chance-to-hit-only-one-of-them-a-turn-Fighter.Regarding any number of HD: Stunning an enemy for one round is not going to take them out of the fight unless you already have someone ready to CDG them. You're likely to take one enemy out of the fight.Spending 1/4 of my team's actions (1/8 if we're counting Quickened spells) to deprive 2-3 enemy combatants of their actions that round is usually a really good trade.Well, it might be if I believed that 2-3 opponents would fail their saves.
At 10th level, a monster's poor save is typically a 9. My casting stat at 10th level is typically a 24 or so, the saving throw for a first level spell would be 10+1+7 or 18. Monsters with poor will saves therefore need a 9 to save and save 60% of the time.
I can hit a maximum of 6 medium-sized creatures with the spell, assuming perfect positioning. 4 of them will make their save. So under perfect conditions 2-3 opponents will fail their save and lose their actions.
Under realistic conditions, the spell's probably useless. Either the creatures aren't the right size, don't have a weak will save, or aren't positioned perfectly.
I didn't miss it. I didn't think it's relevant, because we are discussing whether it remains useful once you hit the hit die cap. It's a good spell at level 1 but near useless at level 10.
It's a good spell at level 1 but near useless at level 10.
It's useless at level 10 when fighting level-appropriate opponents in a dungeon crawl setting. It's still great at level 10 when a bunch of locals brace you with their halberds or whatever and you don't feel like getting blood on your robes, and you don't want to kill them because their boss might be an ally of yours. At level 10 you have the ability to overcome mooks all day without using any higher-level spell slots that actually matter to you.
In other words, in campaigns that involve social and political encounters, or campaigns set in sandboxes, or campaigns that otherwise have wide swings in encounter level (not just ECL +/- 0 to 4). Of course, I run a lot of those sorts of campaigns, so that might be coloring my judgment here.