Need to know the effects on bloodlines when prestiged into dragon disciple for pfs cant find it anywhere. Some help would be very gratfull.
As written it does not advance your Bloodrager bloodline, it gives you the sorcerer bloodline.
Add your voice to a FAQ ruling for more clarification.
I've flagged this for removal to the Rules Questions forum, as this is not a PFS-specific question.
This question has come up quite a few times, so I find it hard to believe that you "cant find it anywhere".
On the top right of your page you should be able to see a "Forum Search" box. If you type in some key terms, like "bloodrager", "dragon disciple", or "draconic", and narrow your search to the more recent discussions, you should find what you're looking for.
Nefreet wrote: This question has come up quite a few times, so I find it hard to believe that you "cant find it anywhere". I took his statement to mean he couldn't find a definitive answer, not that he couldn't find other discussions.
Jiggy has it right for pfs there seems to be be no clear answer to how bloodline powers would work from it and the new book says nothing for pfs on it, it only stats rules on home game. I would asume sorcerer but that risk me losing the time and effort in my char if its wrong
"If the dragon disciple does not have levels of sorcerer, he instead gains bloodline powers of the draconic bloodline, using his dragon disciple level as his sorcerer level to determine the bonuses gained."
Seems pretty clear, that.
WE HAVE A RULING!!!
kinda....
Advanced Class Origin says on page 5
Quote: Your GM may also rule that the new classes’ class features can substitute for similar features of existing classes for the purposes of
qualifying for other prestige classes.
So the answer is YES, the bloodline of a Bloodrager CAN count as a sorcerer bloodline.
However, Additional Resources has not been updated to include Advanced Class Origins yet. Additionally, the quote says the GM decides. So you are looking at a lot of table variation as GM A may say "Sure, Bloodrager will count as sorcerer for the Blood of Dragons ability" and GM B might say "Nope, a bloodrager is not a sorcerer."
Hopefully, when ACO is added to additional resources, we will get a Society specific ruling one way or the other.
It doesn't help the main issue though. This says for qualifying for prestige classes, so whats likely to happen is GM1 says you can take DD with abyssal bloodline, and GM2 that says you need draconic bloodline to "qualify" for the DD class. But this still doesn't say that it would work for abilities that modify or increase those class features.
Requirement to take DD is:
Quote: Spellcasting: Ability to cast 1st-level arcane spells without preparation. If the character has sorcerer levels, he must have the draconic bloodline. If the character gains levels of sorcerer after taking this class, he must take the draconic bloodline. Course, you are right Chess Pwn, no where does it say that the bloodline you have when you take the class is the bloodline that is advanced in blood of dragons.
Except, there is no requirement you have any bloodline when you take the class. Just a limitation if you do have a bloodline, or gain one later.
Like I said, hopefully we will get a ruling for society play one way or the other.
right, but even if the draconic bloodline count to meet prereq, or in this case be required to have that blood, nothing in the line you quoted would indicate that the blood of dragons would then work on the BR bloodline. If it said it could count as that ability for prestige classes I'd agree with you. But since it says for prereqs, I don't know if it would work.
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Ok I can't find a better place to put this, and it's been driving me crazy. I have a few test cases for you guys to review and some arguments supporting each one.
First off, some ground work, Brawler, Warpriest, and Swashbuckler, all have rules stating that their respective classes can be used to determine what bonus fighter combat feats they qualify for.
Likewise extra uses of rage affect how many rage rounds can be used, collectively, and not interdependently if you have rage, blood-rage, or raging performance, i.e. all separate abilities, sharing the same pool of rounds. Also included in here is your grit, luck, panche all part of the same pool, with different names, in fact grit users can pick up, or I believe they can any panche feats, that do not have another class requirements.
That was all very long winded and not to the point directly and I apologize, and where are those examples I inferred to earlier? So lets start out with the obvious;
sorc5/dd1: would be a dragonic bloodline sorcerer with the effective bloodline of 6 simple enough.
bard5/dd1: Also a simple enough bard with 1 dragonic bloodline feature and forced dragonic bloodline if he ever gets one.
Arcanist 5/DD1 with bloodline development, I know arcanist is a "Prepared caster", but I feel they are a spontaneous caster as defined @CRB. Also the Spell Lattice item treats them like Spontaneous casters not Prepared; Bloodline development states that the arcanist chooses a bloodline and acts as a level one sorcerer until which time they use a point from their reservoir and then treat their Arcanist level as their effective level.
Unless this said arcanist has or gains a bloodline from another class, doesn't say sorcerer, and combine the two sets of levels to determine the arcanist's bloodline powers. So in this case pretty easy 6 levels of draconic heritage, boom!
Now lets use that previous example as a jumping off point; if say we do this....
ARC 3/Blood Rager 1; oh so now we get a bloodline, so now the interesting parts, while the BR grants a bloodline it's powers only manifest when raging where as the sorcerer's are rounds per day. Of course this would not allow the character to cast most of his spells while raging, but would it allow for 4th level blood rager bloodline abilities, or first? Wording suggests that you would get 4th level sorcerer bloodline abilities though.... Or take the lesser of 2 evils and only allow the bloodline abilities to manifest when raging?
The key thing here is that we have a very close comparison to both examples as with Brawler, warpriest, and Swashbuckler; Arcanists says you gain sorcerer bloodline powers, but if you gain a bloodline from a class you can add your arcanist lvls to it just like dragon disciple says you can with sorcerer, where as a skald/bard would have to choose between the two, rounds of raging performance, or regular bardic performance.
Where as, a gunslinger/swashbuckler would have a single pool of points to draw on for both their classes abilities, almost the same thing; I'd like to argue, that a Bloodrager/Dragon Disciple, would stack but only in blood rage, i.e. you can use your weaker, sorcerer/Disciple derived powers outside of blood rage, and only Blood Rage fueled powers while transformed by your heritage ALA Bloodrager:
So a BR5/DD3 might be able to blast you with his 3d6 breath weapon and all the claws and bites at 1d6, it's only when his/her wrath his provoked can they unleash the 8d6 breath weapon, d8 claws and bite; but these rounds draw on his sorcerer rounds/uses; if he's used his rounds of claws from sorcerer he can't bite, and the breath weapon is only 5d6, that's one idea, it's a amalgamation of the 2 options; IDK if it's better or worse but that's my take on it.
The DD doesn't give you the draconic bloodline. It only gives you the draconic abilities. As such I don't think it qualifies for the Arcanist to boost it with bloodline development.
bloodline development will boost the BR bloodline and those abilities, letting you use the higher level stuff when you rage. You lose out on any sorcerer aspect as it changes what the exploit does to let your Arcanist levels stack with the other boodline's levels, bloodrager.
Currently as worded a BR5/DD3 would have the powers of a lv5 bloodrager bloodline and a lv3 draconic sorcerer abilites. They wouldn't stack. Currently as worded without errate or other fix that hopefully will come soon.
Sorc/DD: Basic. Fine.
Bard/DD: Also basic. Also fine.
Arcanist/DD: Debatable. The DD doesn't actually give you the full Sorcerer bloodline (you never get the Arcana, for example). As such, whether or not it qualifies to amplify Bloodline Development is kind of up in the air. The RAW leads to a no for me, though I'd let you do it if I was GMing.
Arcanist/Bloodrager: Straightforward. A Bloodrager bloodline is not, in any way, a Sorcerer bloodline, which is what the Arcanist specifically talks about. Bloodline Development does not amplify the Bloodrager's line. You get the first-level power of a Sorcerer at 1st level, can spend a point to amplify that to 3rd level, and you have the powers of a first-level Bloodrager too.
The big difference between Bloodrager/Sorcerer and your other examples is that the Bloodrager bloodlines and Sorcerer bloodlines are different on a fundamental level. The only difference between Grit and Panache is their names and what stat they draw from. Everything else is identical, and they're used from fundamentally the same thing, so they stack-- and we're explicitly told that they stack.
The Brawler, Warpriest, and Swashbuckler all have rules saying they qualify for feats as if they were a Fighter... and that's the key. We are explicitly told that they are treated as Fighters.
We are not explicitly told, anywhere, that a Bloodrager is treated as a Sorcerer, in any context. Hence they are not.
You might be able to swing this logic in a home game. I can't think of much reason for you to take Arcanist 5/DD 1, but if you really wanted to and could give me a good enough argument, sure, I could see letting Bloodline Development work like that. But it doesn't fly by RAW.
Ok I see what the actual confusion is when it comes down to it, because bloodlines where a new thing, and it blood of dragons didn't say, you get the dragon bloodline but rather bloodline powers. Ok, yeah hopefully some errata comes to clear up the confusion.
hopfully sooner then later i have a pfs character benched currently because of there being no errata
I think Draconic Bloodrager's bloodline should stack with DD's blood of the dragon. For bloodrager to become DD he must repick his bloodline to draconic as it was required for classes with bloodline to have draconic blood in order to become DD. And since sorcerer is a parent class to bloodrager, bloodrager should have his bloodline counts as its parent class's bloodline just like how bloodrage does with barbarian's rage. It would be silly for Draconic bloodrager to have a bloodline of sorcerer and bloodline of bloodrager when the bloodline was from the same dragon. I got my bloodline from my ancestor, how come I got two instead when it came from the same dragon?
And as for bloodrager dip sorcerer, I think the levels of bloodline should stack, however the players may only pick his bloodline power, feats and spells from sorcerer or bloodrager upon the moment of taking another class, not from both classes. So if I want to play a draconic sorcerer with some melee power, I can take 1 level of Bloodrager and the rest to be Draconic sorcerer. I pick bloodrager bloodline instead of sorcerer so I can claw anytime I want and my breath weapon will be far more deadlier. However, my form of the dragon ability will be very limited as it requires bloodrage. So instead of having spell that allow me to be dragon for minutes, I will only about a minute. On the other hand, If can be bloodrager and pick sorcerer bloodline after a single level dip. I will gain better natural armor can have more bonus spell earlier, my claws can now bypass DR/magic. However, I will lose the ability to turn dragon while bloodrage, lost 20ft flight speed as well as having some bonus spells that I can't use.
But that's just what I think about how those bloodline should work, we will still have to wait for the official ruling of that...
the bloodrager and sorcerer dip is the blood manifesting in different ways. That's why they have to have the same blood type. But they don't stack levels for what abilities they give, they overlap.
Dafydd wrote: WE HAVE A RULING!!!
kinda....
Advanced Class Origin says on page 5
Quote: Your GM may also rule that the new classes’ class features can substitute for similar features of existing classes for the purposes of
qualifying for other prestige classes.
.
wait.. so does that mean a skald could PRC into battle herald?
Pendagast wrote: Dafydd wrote: WE HAVE A RULING!!!
kinda....
Advanced Class Origin says on page 5
Quote: Your GM may also rule that the new classes’ class features can substitute for similar features of existing classes for the purposes of
qualifying for other prestige classes.
.
wait.. so does that mean a skald could PRC into battle herald? Only if your GM lets you by pure fiat, which they could do anyways. It would still not be legal for PFS.
Calth wrote: Pendagast wrote: Dafydd wrote: WE HAVE A RULING!!!
kinda....
Advanced Class Origin says on page 5
Quote: Your GM may also rule that the new classes’ class features can substitute for similar features of existing classes for the purposes of
qualifying for other prestige classes.
.
wait.. so does that mean a skald could PRC into battle herald? Only if your GM lets you by pure fiat, which they could do anyways. It would still not be legal for PFS. inspire rage is the similar class feature to inspire courage, so according to that it falls in the same category as bloodlines for blood rages and sorcerers.
i wouldn't call that pure fiat.
although when they release books, I think they should have a few pages that update PRC requirements to keep things fresh and useable.
Pendagast wrote: Calth wrote: Pendagast wrote: Dafydd wrote: WE HAVE A RULING!!!
kinda....
Advanced Class Origin says on page 5
Quote: Your GM may also rule that the new classes’ class features can substitute for similar features of existing classes for the purposes of
qualifying for other prestige classes.
.
wait.. so does that mean a skald could PRC into battle herald? Only if your GM lets you by pure fiat, which they could do anyways. It would still not be legal for PFS. inspire rage is the similar class feature to inspire courage, so according to that it falls in the same category as bloodlines for blood rages and sorcerers.
i wouldn't call that pure fiat.
although when they release books, I think they should have a few pages that update PRC requirements to keep things fresh and useable. You are misinterpreting what has been said. All the table says is that Bloodragers qualify for Dragon Disciple, which has been known all along. It does nothing to address the bloodline stacking issue. The caption for the table then says that GMs can let similar abilities qualify if they want, but that's just rule zero all over again.
let me repeat, when they release books, they should have a few pages to update PrC requirements, to keep them fresh and useable.
So as a slight tangent, if they don't stack that could give you 2 different elementals resistances, or breaths to use, I.E. your born with white blood but want to be a gold dragon.
While abyssal makes more sense for this since they get 3/4 energy resistances but it's an option...
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