Decoupling Charisma


Homebrew and House Rules

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Im sorry i probably wouldn't want to play in the game, and even i think that the spellcasters need serious toning back. Youve doomed pretty much all wisdom casters except shamans who were already pretty MAD at times. There is just too much issue with balancing around MAD. Nerfing problematic spells, bringing back the concentration skill, making goodsaves a type of first level bonus(like max hit dice) and making all saves 1/2 level, make spell resistance a free to drop and raise, are all methods that can be implicated without making it frustrating to play a spellcaster.


ALL casters will be INT-POW based. Wisdom won't enter into the spellcasting equation.

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Zhayne wrote:

Well, yes, all spellcasters need a good once-over in a dark alley with a nerfbat. That much is obvious to me.

Making INT for bonus spells and CHA for saving throws gets pretty much everybody, as far as I can tell. Max spell level is almost inconsequential (it's a rare day I run a d20 game past about level 10).

There are other nerfs in the works as well, of course, for the full casters.

From my experience both as a player and GM, spellcasting in levels 5-10 differ wildly depending on whether you're a 6-level or 9-level spellcaster. Spell levels 4 and beyond are usually where spellcasters start to trivialize encounters. A magus doesn't get these spell levels until level 10. A wizard gets them at level 7.

Having run games with only martials and 6-level spellcasters, I personally believe 6-level spellcasters (except summoners obviously) are the most balanced of the classes. They don't get disruptive spells until 10th/13th level, around when the martials start to really outshine them in damage. They make trade offs between power and versatility. Their MAD helps keep them in check.

And I agree with the others in that most of the problem lies with the martial classes being poorly designed.


You really need to completely replace the magic system to have MAD casters. The current system just doesn't have enough adjustables. There's just number of spells and save DCs.

A mana system with scaling costs could have three, corresponding to the three mental stats: regeneration, maximum mana, and maximum spell power.

I'd instead merge strength and dexterity. They pretty much describe the same sort of musculature, The fine motor skills go to int or wis and the endurance skills and carrying capacity go to con and the martial stat problem is fixed while the pure casters are down a dump stat.

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Zhayne wrote:
ALL casters will be INT-POW based. Wisdom won't enter into the spellcasting equation.

i think this removes a lot of flavor.


Cyrad wrote:

What about magi? Bloodragers? Skalds? Bards? Alchemists? Hunters? Rangers? Warpriests? Even oracles and sorcerers suffer, too.

I'm not Zhayne, and my campaign has considerably higher levels of magic than his, so none of this applies to me. However, I'm going to take a stab at answering these from what I am guessing his position is (and correct me if I misinterpret):

Magus: more than powerful enough that it can use a nerf.
Bloodragers, Skalds, and hunters: I haven't really looked carefully at the ACG so I can't comment.
Bards: They're going to be made more INT-based, according to his posts earlier in the thread.
Rangers: What ranger spells depend heavily on save DCs? Rangers are not hurt by this.
Alchemists and warpriests: IIRC from other threads the OP removed prepared casting and divine magic, so these classes probably don't exist.
Sorcerers and Oracles: Those are probably the primary target of the nerf, since they are already two of the most powerful classes in the game.

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Atarlost wrote:

You really need to completely replace the magic system to have MAD casters. The current system just doesn't have enough adjustables. There's just number of spells and save DCs.

...

I'd instead merge strength and dexterity. They pretty much describe the same sort of musculature, The fine motor skills go to int or wis and the endurance skills and carrying capacity go to con and the martial stat problem is fixed while the pure casters are down a dump stat.

I agree here.

On another note, an RPG I'm designing merges Strength and Constitution together and makes Weapon Finesse a weapon property that also adds Dexterity to damage. This way, there's different defensive and offensive trade offs depending on what your build is.


Zhayne, since you seem to be going the route of changing all casters to be based on Intelligence and Power, may I suggest something radical?

Change wisdom too. At this point, wisdom will nearly only affect will saves, sense motive, and perception, heal and survival skill checks.

Consider changing Wisdom to Awareness. It continues to affect perception, sense motive, survival, and will (Will because you're more aware on intrusions in your mind), but also add initiative and diplomacy to it (bluff could be Int, intimidate could be Str).

Switch heal to int-based since it's based a lot on theoretical knowledge.

That way you have:
Strength - Melee attacks, damage, skills
Dexterity - Ranged attacks, AC, finesse attacks, reflex saves, skills
Constitution - Hit points, fortitude saves
Intelligence - Skill points, spellcasting, knowledge skills
Awareness - Initiative, will saves, skills
Power - Spell DCs, spell-like abilities and spellcaster class bonuses


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I don't see the flavour behind this fix, unless you intend it to be a purely mechanical change (Which, in that case, I've nothing to say on).

Charisma, being as it is, and used as a casting stat for differeny classes signifies a certain flavour, just as intellect and wisdom does for classes that use it for their own casting.

What this means is, a sorcerer is someone that does not essentially *study* his art, he just forces it with his "force of personality" (a.k.a. the strength of his emotions, resolve, confidence, unconfidence or even psychological instabilities.), unless you're a Sage sorcerer.

A wizard studies his art. He needs to have the intellect to understand how you make the world do things that it's not supposed to do outside of divine intervention. And because you've got the strength of mind and ingenuity to fathom it, you study ways to make it happen, and do. You essnetially use your force of thought and academical experience to grow in power.

Clerics and Druids use wisdom. Why? Because being charismatic, having a strong personality and so on isn't necesarry.

A cleric's god won't care about that, because the cleric is merely a vessel of their power, ideals and beleifs. He needs not be soft-spoken or pleasant, but he must have the wisdom to see and look for things in others and general things that other mortals do not. He must see the world with a clear, unhindered gaze and project it through the lense of his god, to then make philosophical sense of it.

Same for the druid. He must have the wisdom to understand things about nature that can not be grasped with simple knowledge. To feel flow of all things and thus gain insight on their workings, being able to either forcefully manipulate this flow or natural energies, or to call upon its benevolence if his goals are to protect this flow from interference. You don't need to be smart and your teeth don't need to be white.

So why would you just simplify things just like that? You'd entirely obliterate class flavour and any roleplaying incentive players would have to stress the importance and -meaning- of being a cleric/sorcerer/wizard/druid as opposed to just any other caster.

I don't see why you would concern yourself over something like balance in a game where the priority (unless you're just doing this for entirely different kicks and reasons) is telling a tale and using a GM with a system (That can be changed accordingly for the campaign and PC's needs in a home game) to depict certain things.

If the wizard is overpowered, just give the fighter GM boons. Perhaps an epic quest where he bathed in dragonblood and gained awesome abilities or challenged an old giant to a battle and won, gaining his soul and strength. I don't see any thematical significance in this fix as it doesn't cater to the individual flavors of the classes.

Savvy?


Sounds like you might as well write your own system


Have you considered just flat-out adding a 7th stat and add 5 to the point buy? Martials already dump Charisma. To buff them, an extra 10 to buy down to 7 is preferable.

Keep the same system in other respects, but bonus spells per day and max spell level available are based off the 7th stat.

And you might want a better name, like Essentia or Exergonia.


for home brew you can always go the way WW always had:
power
finesse
resilience

for physical it would be:
str
dex
con

for mental it can be
cha
int
wis

so p.e., all casting classes get their extra spells and number of spells/day from int. it is their stat for how good they are with magic

cha is the actual power behind those spells, so DC, things like bonuses to spells like spiritual weapon and such

wis can be the saving throws vs spells, spell-like and supernatural, as well as the concentration stat when interrupted

con can be used for all saving throws that aren't spell/spell-like, supernatural (traps, poisons, diseases, hazards, extraordinary, etc)

social and general skills can be tied appropriatly:
knowledge is int, also bluff is int since it is how well you can weave words. diplomacy can be either int or cha, depending on if you are using force of personality (power) or fine words (int), resilience (wis) can be used for defensive usage of skills, like sense motive, passive perception (active would be int probably), and such


shroudb wrote:

for home brew you can always go the way WW always had:

power
finesse
resilience

for physical it would be:
str
dex
con

for mental it can be
cha
int
wis

social and general skills can be tied appropriatly:
knowledge is int, also bluff is int since it is how well you can weave words. diplomacy can be either int or cha, depending on if you are using force of personality (power) or fine words (int), resilience (wis) can be used for defensive usage of skills, like sense motive, passive perception (active would be int probably), and such

You're decoupling Charisma from what the word means. Charismatic people are good at getting people to like them (Diplomacy) and manipulating them (Bluff, Intimidate-- though being big and strong should also help one intimidate). Charisma should also be used for skills if there's any question as to which is the appropriate mental stat, because Intelligence already governs skill ranks and Wisdom willpower saves.

Do you really think a super intellect like Einstein was inherently better at Diplomacy or Bluff than a very charismatic but not especially smart politician (everyone can decide who fits that in their opinion; if I listed a name many would disagree, as is the nature of politics; but we all would agree that some politicians fit the description)?

Low Charisma even needs more weaknesses than it has, because any stat you dump should have major consequences regardless of class: Classes should all be MAD.

I'm strongly against the big caster nerfs some people seem to want. But I think different mental stats for different areas of casting makes sense, and it is a nerf (increasing MAD) that I'd support, because I support that for everyone.

But don't make Charisma any weaker in other ways, such as less skills' requiring it, as thus make it even more cost-free for non-casters to dump. Dumping anything should have down sides on everyone. I might make the stat for Will saves the average of Wisdom and Charisma, rounding down.

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