Helm of Opposite alignment and alignment change

[180degreesturn]

So I was looking at another thread speaking of this item and a thought occurred to me after reading the helm rules
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/magicItems/specificCursedItems.html#helm -of-opposite-alignment

So the rules say that someone cannot return to their former alignment unless a wish or miracle is used. But then look at the changing alignment rules and I believe we have a problem
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/additionalRules.html#alignment

It says that a player is free to change their character's alignment so for example a LG character fails his will save and becomes CE. Now he cannot return to his lawful good alignment through anything short of a wish but could he not just change his character to CG or NG? ya it isnt the same alignment but its close enough to not have the character brutally murdering innocents.

I know the alignment rules are ambiguous but im curious what you guys think.

[Grey_Mage]

You didn't wake up this morning a say "Today I am Lawful Good". Well, you can, but if you cheat on a Math test, you suddenly don't become non-lawful even though its a non-lawful act.

However your actions slowly mold you over time. Ex: A new Police recruit goes through training to save the world, but after a few years on the street, he may no longer be lawful good seeing criminals released under the law to inflict crime on others again. He/she may become more inclined to have the criminal "trip" multiple times getting into the car.

This is an RL example of a shift from LG to NG trending toward CG. Hes still seving the "good" of mankind, but going outside the rules to do it.

Your worldview is pretty set by the time you are old enough to go adventuring, so barring a major incident its not a sudden shift. Your GM would have to craft in in the story.

The rule on Wish is more like the Wizard stating "Gee, I WISH Sammy the Palidan never put that helmet on", because they want a non-psycho version of their friend hanging around. The affected PC will NEVER seek out a change, unless the new CE fallen Palidan is butchering kids and sees his own child in the carnage. Then he might have reason for introspection about his path in life. Otherwise, he is enjoying the life unfettered of responsibility.

Short answer: Your character just got a major overhaul. Play him as is, or relinquish him to me as an NPC. As a story telling game, these flaw-like things define a character even more than his strengths and virtues. See where it goes =)

[Pizza Lord]

Helm of Opposite Alignment wrote:

...and the affected individual does not make any attempt to return to the former alignment. In fact, he views the prospect with horror and avoids it in any way possible.

A LG character turning CE certainly couldn't try and become LG again just by choice (as noted in item description) and I would say that trying to end run around this curse by becoming NG or CG isn't acceptable. Alignment isn't straight-forward and even though it says you can change your character's alignment it still must be shown through actions and roleplaying. You don't typically get to go from CE to LG or LN to CN without some actions and drifting along the spectrum.

So I would say that a player trying to just declare his character to be CG or NG as a way to get closer to his original alignment would be unacceptable. They don't want to get closer to it. It's similar to a situation where a character is cursed to be afraid of snakes but tries to continually buy snake idols or plush snake toys and say they aren't disturbing to him because they aren't real snakes. Like how people are just as freaked out by clown figurines and postures as by real clowns.

The sheer horror of potentially running into a clown keeps that character from even visiting the circus at all, even if they really love tightrope walkers and elephants. So they completely avoid any chance of it. At best they might buy a ticket to the circus (from somewhere well away from the circus) to give to someone they know might like a circus, but they wouldn't go even if a loved one begged and pleaded for them to accompany them because of the clowns. It's a curse, it's not rational or negotiable.

[Selgard]

Agreed with Pizza Lord:

The person likes their new alignment and doesn't want to change from it. A PC changed by it who went about trying to return to their alignment is essentially ignoring part of the curse.

If it gave them a -2 to hit you wouldn't let them ignore that- and you shouldn't let them ignore this either.

The Wish/miracle would have to be done by someone else against the express wishes of the victim.

-S

[Tarantula]

I definitely think Grey_Mage has the right view on it. Very well said. They enjoy the new alignment, and will not intentionally act against it, barring something like your example.

[Lincoln Hills]

Also agreed; remember the 'specific trumps general' guideline. Rules-as-written aside, may I say that this is one of the things that makes the helm such a widely reviled item? It interferes with player decisions in a way that, say, a scarab of death doesn't. (Yes, you'll die hideously in a few rounds, but in the meantime you're free to live out your remaining seconds of gurgling terror exactly as you wish.)