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Question: Why is the worship of the Old Great Ones or Outer Gods disallowed?
There are many gods that are legal for play under the current rules that champion ideas such as deformation, forced pregnancy, murder, torture, disease, etc. I believe that Urgathoa and Lamashtu are two of the main gods that are the best examples of this. Their portfolios, history, worship requirements and cults are especially evil and grotesque. I encourage the idea that these be legal choices for worship as the Society operates in a way that may necessitate someone of their inclinations.
To my mind, Hastur/Cthulu/Azathoth/etc. are all deities that are much more reserved. They are not nearly as strict in their requirements for their followers and certainly have groups of followers that aren't Evil. In fact, some followers of GOOs or OGs can even be Good (e.g. Azathoth can have CG followers, same as Mhar or Bokrug).
To me, it doesn't seem that the exclusion of these deities from the legal choices is based on the fact that these deities condone evil actions (I don't think they do. They couldn't care less about the machinations of Golarion's inhabitants according to the mythos). It can't be because the deities have evil cults as nearly every evil or neutral deity has at least one evil cult or following. I honestly cannot think of a reason why these two groups of deities are excluded when deities such as Urgathoa/Lamashtu/Zon Kuthon/etc. are allowed to be worshipped.
TL;DR: I want to play a Ecclesitheurge Cleric of Hastur, but I can't because the deity choice isn't legal and I'm not sure why that is the case.
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Question: Why is the worship of the Old Great Ones or Outer Gods disallowed?
I honestly cannot think of a reason why these two groups of deities are excluded when deities such as Urgathoa/Lamashtu/Zon Kuthon/etc. are allowed to be worshipped.
I'm guessing it might have something to do with the fact that these deities are actually strongly represented in the Inner Sea and Golarion lore, whereas the GOOs or OGs are only mentioned as having out of the way cults?
PFS is played in Paizo's version of Golarion. I know the GOOs are there, but they are a minor group in this version.
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I had the same thought a while ago when I considering rolling up a cleric of Yog Sothoth or something similar and was disappointed to find that choice unavailable for Society play.
I have to agree with the OP that I am a bit perplexed by the decision to exclude these deities from Society play and yet allow the aforementioned Urgathoa, Lamashtu, etc as legal choices for divine classes. Ideally I'd like to see the GOOs and OGs become legal but at the least I'd like perhaps a bit more of an explanation as to why those deities are not allowed.
Thanks!
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Question: Why is the worship of the Old Great Ones or Outer Gods disallowed?
I honestly cannot think of a reason why these two groups of deities are excluded when deities such as Urgathoa/Lamashtu/Zon Kuthon/etc. are allowed to be worshipped.
I'm guessing it might have something to do with the fact that these deities are actually strongly represented in the Inner Sea and Golarion lore, whereas the GOOs or OGs are only mentioned as having out of the way cults?
PFS is played in Paizo's version of Golarion. I know the GOOs are there, but they are a minor group in this version.
To your point about the GOO and OGs not being major forces on Golarion: the Ancient Osirion deities are legal even though they are not normally worshiped in modern Golarion nor do they hold much force in modern Golarion. Even though they only hold small pockets/cults of worshipers, they are still legal for Society play.
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To your point about the GOO and OGs not being major forces on Golarion: the Ancient Osirion deities are legal even though they are not normally worshiped in modern Golarion nor do they hold much force in modern Golarion. Even though they only hold small pockets/cults of worshipers, they are still legal for Society play.Question: Why is the worship of the Old Great Ones or Outer Gods disallowed?
I honestly cannot think of a reason why these two groups of deities are excluded when deities such as Urgathoa/Lamashtu/Zon Kuthon/etc. are allowed to be worshipped.
I'm guessing it might have something to do with the fact that these deities are actually strongly represented in the Inner Sea and Golarion lore, whereas the GOOs or OGs are only mentioned as having out of the way cults?
PFS is played in Paizo's version of Golarion. I know the GOOs are there, but they are a minor group in this version.
True...and most of the Ancient Osirion deities were made up and fit into the backstory of one of the 5 major Inner Sea nations. Being intertwined in a major player's canon counts for a lot as to whether it truly fits a fantasy worlds story or not, IMO.
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I'm guessing it might have something to do with the fact that these deities are actually strongly represented in the Inner Sea and Golarion lore, whereas the GOOs or OGs are only mentioned as having out of the way cults?
PFS is played in Paizo's version of Golarion. I know the GOOs are there, but they are a minor group in this version.
If it is an obscurity issue, then why allow the worship of the Ancient Osiriani deities? These deities' "modern worship has waned significantly in recent centuries." (Pathfinder Wiki) Surely, there are as many Cthulu worshippers as there are devout worshippers of Sobek or Apep. If Ancient Osiriani deities are too numerous, why not look at Eldest worship or Elemental Lords worship. I mean, a devout worshipper of Trelmarixian, the Horseman of Famine, is allowed in PFS. I have a hard time believing that the Yellow Cult is smaller than a cult of Trelmarixian, even in Golarion.
Xin'Shalast is built on the prison of Mhar. The Spires of Xin'Shalast even goes into detail about how a cult of Mhar opposes Rovagug and failed at freeing Mhar from his tomb under Xin'Shalast.
EDIT: Ninja'd...
True...and most of the Ancient Osirion deities were made up and fit into the backstory of one of the 5 major Inner Sea nations. Being intertwined in a major player's canon counts for a lot as to whether it truly fits a fantasy worlds story or not, IMO.
True, but the question is not if the deities fit into the fantasy world, but if there is worship, right? If you can be a devout worshipper of Apep, then why not Mhar? Both probably have about as much written on them as each other.
Also, Hastur's avatar and Cthulu's avatar are already statblocked in Beastiary 4 (I think). Surely, this gives them some credibility, yes?
Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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This may be an unrelated question, but are the horsemen like Charon PFS legal, it was never challenged, but from my reading of the additional resources list they forbid a number of gods, but the horsemen didn't seem to be included.
Edit: I really see no reason to forbid a number of gods, if even the allowed gods have disgusting and abhorrent practices, and frankly Pathfinder characters have to accept quite a bit of weirdness when it comes to other characters.
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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After being cast out of the church of Urgathoa, I have come to serve Charon, my Lord of Death and Water.
Well better than Hanspur, Charon you can respect, but he and Gyrona are pretty much the definition of D-list evil.
On a related note, what did you do to get cast out by Urgathoa... cure the sick ? Serve unspoiled milk? .... dare I say, clean the tea urn?
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To my mind, Hastur/Cthulu/Azathoth/etc. are all deities that are much more reserved. They are not nearly as strict in their requirements for their followers and certainly have groups of followers that aren't Evil. In fact, some followers of GOOs or OGs can even be Good (e.g. Azathoth can have CG followers, same as Mhar or Bokrug).
The Other Gods or Great Old Ones are universally mad, promote a sense of madness or are just too alien, as in different is a bad way - alien, to Golarion.
*Mad as in what they do makes no sense/relation to mortal minds. Not just mad-mad. Whatever they do is for reason beyond just good-evil.Their very thought are alien to that of mortal races.
To such beings, they may not even see their actions as something of an alignment issue.
To put it simply, its not that they are not as demanding on their worshippers, but more likely that they not even care. The followers are less "Do evil things for evil sake" but more they are "Evil, because they do mad and crazy things"
I honestly cannot think of a reason why these two groups of deities are excluded when deities such as Urgathoa/Lamashtu/Zon Kuthon/etc. are allowed to be worshipped.
Urgathoa and Zon Kuthon are both still mortal focused gods, meaning that still understand mortals and their thought processes are not too far off a mortal's. Maybe taken to an extreme, but still "human-like".
Zon Kuthon in fact has a whole mortal nation worshipping him.Urgathoa - is an ex-human who took certain human wants to an extreme.
Lamashtu may be closer to the Outer Gods and Great Old Ones, she is after all a demon. (Which could explain why they banned her obedience.) But even a ex-demon goddess is still more mortal-thinking. Remember the first Demons are Qlippoth (which are totally-unhuman) fused with evil "mortal souls". Demons now-a-days are created from mortal souls.
Aka compared to the Outer Gods and Great Old Ones, Demons for all their corruption, are still mortal-focused, aka they still think kinda like a mortal, are made from mortals and interact with mortals.
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So while evil characters might go after evil gods, demons, devils, archdevils, demon lords, etc. Only mad people, or soon to become mad people, go after the Outer Gods and Great Old ones.
One side are alien beings with little care, concern or even think like mortals, the other are beings related to mortals and do KNOW that they are doing evil and representing those evils.
Both sides are evil, but one side don't even understand they are evil, the other side KNOW they are evil.
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On a related note, what did you do to get cast out by Urgathoa... cure the sick ? Serve unspoiled milk? .... dare I say, clean the tea urn?
Essentially, church politics. The Society had sent me as part of a team to try and talk sense to a fellow cleric of Urgathoa who was being ridiculously blatant. Her "pale-pox" scheme was rapidly rousing the entire populace of north-east Andoran against her, and by extension against the cult of Urgathoa. Once we caught up to her, there was no reasoning, and I joined in the effort to throw her soul to Judgement.
It seems she had powerful friends in the hierarchy, and that there is a technical sin about killing a priest and not reanimating her corpse.
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Out of character, this change happened when the Undead Lord was banned. I rebuilt Cadavrul into a straight-forward cleric, and took the opportunity to change death gods while I was at it.
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After being cast out of the church of Urgathoa, I have come to serve Charon, my Lord of Death and Water.Well better than Hanspur, Charon you can respect, but he and Gyrona are pretty much the definition of D-list evil.
On a related note, what did you do to get cast out by Urgathoa... cure the sick ? Serve unspoiled milk? .... dare I say, clean the tea urn?
Hanspur is CN. Stop spreading vicious lies about my diety. Would you by chance like to take a walk down by the river? :)
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Question: Why is the worship of the Old Great Ones or Outer Gods disallowed?I honestly cannot think of a reason why these two groups of deities are excluded when deities such as Urgathoa/Lamashtu/Zon Kuthon/etc. are allowed to be worshipped.Ban 'em all, I say.
Right, just like anything taboo (looking at you blood consuming spells/abilities), let's just call it all evil and bad and take it all away so that we can only have good guys in our supposedly neutral organization...
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The Other Gods or Great Old Ones are universally mad, promote a sense of madness or are just too alien, as in different is a bad way - alien, to Golarion.
*Mad as in what they do makes no sense/relation to mortal minds. Not just mad-mad. Whatever they do is for reason beyond just good-evil.Their very thought are alien to that of mortal races.
To such beings, they may not even see their actions as something of an alignment issue.To put it simply, its not that they are not as demanding on their worshippers, but more likely that they not even care. The followers are less "Do evil things for evil sake" but more they are "Evil, because they do mad and crazy things"
I completely agree, however I'm not sure this explains why the Outer Gods would be restricted in PFS.
My guess is that it's more about Golarion lore than the flavor of the Great Old Ones: They were forklifted directly from Lovecraft without any support in the setting. One of the goals of Pathfinder Society is to showcase Golarion, so why bring something that was basically a bone thrown to Lovecraft fans into PFS when there are literally dozens and dozens of other options that have a place in the lore you're trying to promote?
This seems like it may explain the reasoning behind the ban, but is it really a "bone thrown to Lovecraft fans"? Cthulu and Hastur appeared in Beastiary 4. The Old Gods and Great Old Ones were put in Inner Sea Gods and fleshed out with Domains/Subdomains, Favored Weapons, etc. We are exploring the stars with books like People of the Stars and these gods are likely to be featured very prominently here. The Dark Tapestry is everywhere. Dragon's Demand features it a bit and isn't that essentially the realm of the OGs and GOOs? Seems like the Lovecraftian gods are getting significantly more face time as they develop more product.
Seriously, if someone else can find the post I'm alluding to, I'd really appreciate it.
In the mean time, I'll quote myself from the other thread about allowing outer gods or whatever they're called
...someone in campaign leadership commenting on this earlier this year.
The comment was, basically, that certain deities are outlawed because the antagonist NPC frequently venerates a deity. It's easier to say Lissala, NG, et al, are not available choices for PFS PCs, freeing them up for enemy-NPCs. Furthermore, when there's some Evil Cleric of Lamashtu or whatever, it's harder for a PC cleric of Lamashtu to see that enemy as evil or acting against the tenants of the patron deity. Also, this very situation (allowing PCs to venerate Lamashtu, Rovagug, et cetera) toes a PVP line and can undermine the success conditions of certain scenarios.
Pretty much, some deities got the boot so that NPCs could worship them and be a clear "other" in relation to the PCs.
edit: bad spelling
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True, but doesn't that already exist? Evil clerics are common enemies in a lot of scenarios and they usually worship deities that players can worship. A PC Cleric of Lamashtu may see an enemy Cleric of Lamashtu and think that their plans may be facilitating their goddess's goals, but Lamashtu also sent the PC Cleric to the Pathfinder Society, thus they should abide by the Society's rules. If that means striking down a fellow Cleric, then the Goddess willed it to be so.
Also, does this imply that the Outer Gods and Great Old Ones are going to become antagonists?
True, but doesn't that already exist? Evil clerics are common enemies in a lot of scenarios and they usually worship deities that players can worship. A PC Cleric of Lamashtu may see an enemy Cleric of Lamashtu and think that their plans may be facilitating their goddess's goals, but Lamashtu also sent the PC Cleric to the Pathfinder Society, thus they should abide by the Society's rules. If that means striking down a fellow Cleric, then the Goddess willed it to be so.
Also, does this imply that the Outer Gods and Great Old Ones are going to become antagonists?
Whatever the society wants is not above what your god who gives you powers wants. Killing a cleric of your same deity, especially if her alignment matches better than yours does, is akin to sacrilege and borderline cause for atonement. As a part of the post I could not find, it was effectively a compromise between allowing PCs to worship the deities of the core pantheon and still keeping things off limits for NPC use.
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Personally, I like the RP potential of two PC/NPC devotees clashing over their interpretations of their dogma.
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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After being cast out of the church of Urgathoa, I have come to serve Charon, my Lord of Death and Water.Well better than Hanspur, Charon you can respect, but he and Gyrona are pretty much the definition of D-list evil.
On a related note, what did you do to get cast out by Urgathoa... cure the sick ? Serve unspoiled milk? .... dare I say, clean the tea urn?
Hanspur is CN. Stop spreading vicious lies about my diety. Would you by chance like to take a walk down by the river? :)
Hanspur isn't even evil, his alignment is CN. So one of his rituals is to drown a fellow traveler. Just travel with a killer deserving of death.
The fact, that you can be a CG professional drowner... just feels wrong. Of course followers of Ragathiel have to kill every day ...