Full Attack After a Charge in a Surprise Round with Pounce

[Avoron]

My question is this: Could a character with the pounce ability perform a full attack after a charge in a surprise round?

I'm pretty sure the answer is yes RAW, but I can't find any specific ruling on this, and I wanted to check.

The reason I'm asking is that I created this build which uses that mechanic to do insane amounts of damage.

Relevant quotes:

Charge description, page 198, Core Rulebook:
"If you are able to take only a standard action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed) and you cannot draw a weapon unless you possess the Quick Draw feat. You can't use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action on your turn."

Surprise round description, page 178, Core Rulebook:
"If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents, a surprise round happens before regular rounds begin. In initiative order (highest to lowest), combatants who stated the battle aware of their opponents each take a standard or move action during the surprise round. You can also take free actions during the surprise round."

Pounce description, page 302, Bestiary:
"When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can also make a full attack (including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability)."

There's also an FAQ answer relating to this:

"If a creature with pounce is under a slow effect, and it charges, does it still get its full attack from pounce?

According to the rules as written, pounce would allow the creature its full attack, despite the slow effect. (This happens because there is no "partial charge" action.)"

Does anybody know of other rules, FAQs, or posts that might confirm or refute this idea? Any input will be appreciated.

[That Crazy Alchemist]

Avoron wrote:

My question is this: Could a character with the pounce ability perform a full attack after a charge in a surprise round?

I'm pretty sure the answer is yes RAW, but I can't find any specific ruling on this, and I wanted to check.

The reason I'm asking is that I created this build which uses that mechanic to do insane amounts of damage.

Relevant quotes:

Charge description, page 198, Core Rulebook:
"If you are able to take only a standard action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed) and you cannot draw a weapon unless you possess the Quick Draw feat. You can't use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action on your turn."

Surprise round description, page 178, Core Rulebook:
"If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents, a surprise round happens before regular rounds begin. In initiative order (highest to lowest), combatants who stated the battle aware of their opponents each take a standard or move action during the surprise round. You can also take free actions during the surprise round."

Pounce description, page 302, Bestiary:
"When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can also make a full attack (including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability)."

There's also an FAQ answer relating to this:

"If a creature with pounce is under a slow effect, and it charges, does it still get its full attack from pounce?

According to the rules as written, pounce would allow the creature its full attack, despite the slow effect. (This happens because there is no "partial charge" action.)"

Does anybody know of other rules, FAQs, or posts that might confirm or refute this idea? Any input will be appreciated.

I would say yes, but it's a little shady. You are utilizing a rules domino effect to do more in a single round than you really should be, it's on par with characters taking 20 free actions in one turn. A lot of GM's may nix that so I might not take it into Organized Play or any other scenario where you don't know who your GM is, if I were you. But if your home game GM is cool with it I'd say go for it :)

[wraithstrike]

The FAQ answers the question. In both cases the effect is the same. You are charging on a standard action, so if you get pounce in one situation you get pounce in the other.

[Quintain]

Looks perfectly legitimate to me.

Surprise round allows a standard action, charge is executed as a standard action with limited distance, pounce allows a full attack on a charge (doesn't specify required distance except that which is required in order to charge -- 10').

[Jeff Merola]

Yup. Pouncing on a Surprise Round is definitely something you can do. Pounce just requires a charge (which you can do in a surprise round), it doesn't require you to charge as a full round action. So a Tiger that jumps out of a bush at you that you didn't see gets all of its attacks.

[Nicos]

As ohter have pointed out you can pounce on surprise rounds. I consider it to be one of the sillies FAQs outer there.

[Ascalaphus]

It's required for Bestiary pounce monsters to function as written. If a velociraptor or tiger can't make a full attack after moving during the surprise round, the monster isn't doing what we flavorwise expect from it.

[Paulicus]

I disagree that we need this for the flavor. The creatures' full attack in the second round (especially if they have grab) would be the flurry of attacks after they actually reach their target, but they still open with one big lunge.

The rules are clear here though, it's allowed. I do think it's silly, and will change it in any non-PFS games I run.

[Umbranus]

Avoron wrote:

Does anybody know of other rules, FAQs, or posts that might confirm or refute this idea? Any input will be appreciated.

All the rules you found and quoted tell you it is allowed to pounce on a standard action charge. Why are you looking for further rules?

The answer is yes, you can pounce when making a standard action charge. By that zombies with ounce can make a full attack, for example.

[Sarrah]

If a GM is giving you problems, this item will negate the GM's opinion:
Sandals of Quick Reaction

Price 4,000 gp; Aura faint transmutation; CL 4th; Weight 1 lb.

These supple leather sandals grant a burst of speed during times of duress. When the wearer acts during a surprise round, he can take a standard and a move action during the surprise round. If the wearer already has the ability to take a standard and a move action during the surprise round, he instead gains a +10 circumstance bonus to speed when acting during a surprise round.

Construction Requirements

Cost 2,000 gp

Craft Wondrous Item, anticipate peril, haste

[Avoron]

Thanks for the confirmation everyone. I'm not currently using that build in a game, but I wanted to make sure I didn't lose the ability to use it at the last minute because I didn't read some part of the rules carefully enough, or if there was some FAQ answer that interpreted the rules differently.

I was considering getting an ability that works like those sandals by being a fourth level rogue with the Bandit archetype. The problem is that it doesn't let you take full round actions during a surprise round, just a standard action and a move action. And the Charge rules specify that you can only charge as a standard action if you are restricted to only a standard action in a round, so I think those might actually prevent me from charging in a surprise round.

[The Unknown Elder]

People who are Slowed (since that was a factor specifically mentioned) are also Staggered... which means no full-round actions, and thus no Full Attack.

The Pounce allows the use of all your iterative attacks in spite of the fact that you're moving (Charge)... which itself is a Full-Round Action.

In other words, if you are Slowed, you can't Charge at all, let alone Pounce at the end of it.

[willuwontu]

The Unknown Elder wrote:

People who are Slowed (since that was a factor specifically mentioned) are also Staggered... which means no full-round actions, and thus no Full Attack.

The Pounce allows the use of all your iterative attacks in spite of the fact that you're moving (Charge)... which itself is a Full-Round Action.

In other words, if you are Slowed, you can't Charge at all, let alone Pounce at the end of it.

Please don't necro 5 year old threads to say something incorrect.

Charge Rules wrote:

If you are able to take only a standard action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed) and you cannot draw a weapon unless you possess the Quick Draw feat. You can’t use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action on your turn.

There is a specific version of charging you can take while staggered.

Not to mention the wording of this FAQ should have made it obvious that there is a way to do so and it works.

FAQ wrote:

Pounce and Slow: If a creature with pounce is under a slow effect, and it charges, does it still get its full attack from pounce?

According to the rules as written, pounce would allow the creature its full attack, despite the slow effect.

(This happens because there is no "partial charge" action in the Pathfinder RPG.)

Thus we see that a creature with pounce can full attack on a standard action charge.