just give your eidolon the belt... con now applies to eidolon and not you.
I think he is arguing that when the eidolon fuses with him, the eidolon is now wearing the belt, and should get the CON bonus to its score, which will replace his CON as he is a synthesist.
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You only get one. The belt either affects you or it affects the eidolon, you don't get both.
So many places to go with that statement, for example:
Neither the synthesist nor his eidolon can be targeted separately, as they are fused into one creature.
Emphasis mine. There is no distinction, the synthesist and his eidolon are one being while fused.
and
While fused with his eidolon, the synthesist can use all of his own abilities and gear, except for his armor.
I use my gear, including benefiting from the enhancement bonus from my belt.
A synthesist summons the essence of a powerful outsider to meld with his own being. The synthesist wears the eidolon like translucent, living armor. The eidolon mimics all of the synthesist’s movements, and the synthesist perceives through the eidolon’s senses and speaks through its voice, as the two are now one creature.
While fused with his eidolon, the synthesist uses the eidolon’s physical ability scores (Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution), but retains his own mental ability scores (Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma). When these hit points reach 0, the eidolon is killed and sent back to its home plane. The synthesist uses the eidolon’s base attack bonus, and gains the eidolon’s armor and natural armor bonuses and modifiers to ability scores. The synthesist also gains access to the eidolon’s special abilities and the eidolon’s evolutions. The synthesist is still limited to the eidolon’s maximum number of natural attacks. The eidolon has no skills or feats of its own. The eidolon must be at least the same size as the synthesist. The eidolon must have limbs for the synthesist to cast spells with somatic components. The eidolon’s temporary hit points can be restored with the rejuvenate eidolon spell.
While fused, the synthesist loses the benefits of his armor. He counts as both his original type and as an outsider for any effect related to type, whichever is worse for the synthesist. Spells such as banishment or dismissal work normally on the eidolon, but the synthesist is unaffected. Neither the synthesist nor his eidolon can be targeted separately, as they are fused into one creature. The synthesist and eidolon cannot take separate actions. While fused with his eidolon, the synthesist can use all of his own abilities and gear, except for his armor. In all other cases, this ability functions as the summoner’s normal eidolon ability (for example, the synthesist cannot use his summon monster ability while the eidolon is present).
Reviewing the entire entry, there are several subjects to consider, which are highlighted.
When in fusion, the Eidolon is considered an armor, and as such won't stack with other armor, as evidenced by the final paragraph heading. It also states that the base physical ability scores of the Eidolon replace the Summoner's base physical ability scores.
When calculating temporary hit points gained from the fusion, you only use the Eidolon's hit points, meaning any changes to the Eidolon's, and only the Eidolon's hit points, increases the temporary hit points you gain, meaning if the belt does not affect the Eidolon, it will not increase the temporary hit points.
It mentions several times that even when fused, the Synthesist is ever only considered one creature, though his type changes for effects that are reliant on it, and can be thrown out of his fusion early with the right spell.
The first and final parts are really telling as to how it would be ran, and reinforces the OP's assumption to be the correct one, since the Belt is an add-on to the PC's existing score, which is substituted with the Eidolon's, not a finite, selective subject like a Con Tome would be.
Breaking it down:
Say PC is 3rd level and has 12 Constitution, since he thinks an 18-20 Dexterity is a little spendy on his already 20 main stat. He laters acquires a Con Belt +2, raising it to 14. Now, his Eidolon has 20 Constitution base, with a total of 36 hit points (assuming average D10 hit dice + 5 Con modifier). One the base is calculated, you throw in the extras, such as the +2 Constitution; however, to calculate what is temporary and what is regular, you need to treat the Synthesist and the Eidolon as separate entities, though the result is combined (as by that point they become one creature).
So, to finish the example, Base Synth hit points is 20 (D6 average hit dice + 1 Con modifier), and Base Eidolon hit points is 36. Con modifier adds to your hit points per hit dice, so the 14 Con Synthesist would have 23 hit points, whereas his Eidolon would have 39. Fused together would result in 39 temporary and 23 regular hit points, or a grand total of 62.
Say you have 14 Con and the Eidolon has 16 Con. When fused, the eidolon wears the belt, and thus has 18 Con. You use the Con of the eidolon, so both you and the eidolon have 18 Con. Thus both gain the bonus.
Say you have 14 Con and the Eidolon has 16 Con. When fused, the eidolon wears the belt, and thus has 18 Con. You use the Con of the eidolon, so both you and the eidolon have 18 Con. Thus both gain the bonus.
Remember that the Eidolon's base physical ability scores replace the Summoner's; the only saving grace is that the belt is an add-on after the fact, so even if the base is changed, the bonus from the Belt is still being applied to whatever score you're using.
Such a concept would not be applicable to a permanent addition like the ability scores you get from leveling (4th, 8th, 12th, etc.), or from Stat Tomes, since those affect only specifically your own score, not just whatever score you are currently using.
When fused the belt adds to the eidolon not you, so you get only the extra HP to the eidolon and save bonus.
now that I think about it, the eidolon doesn't give you an extra 1 thp. the replaced score is still you, not the eidolon. so a bonus to that score does not effect your eidolon's score and thus grant a bonus hp.
however, if you put it on your eidolon, the score woudl still replace yours and be the same, but grant an extra 1 thp, but no normal hp. in either case you end out even due to sharing hp whenever you want to gain thp.
basically
Summoner con : 10
Eidolon con: 20
when you add belt it becoems
S con: 10+2
E con: 20
so when you swap it becomes
S con: 20+2
E con: 20
your eidolon's HP never changes because it never gains additional con. thus no increase to temp hp.
When fused the belt adds to the eidolon not you, so you get only the extra HP to the eidolon and save bonus.When fused you use the eidolon's Con score to determine your own hit points.
Example: a 1st level synthesist with a 14 Con drops to a 13 Con, and loses 1 hp, while fused.
I don't think that works actually, maybe if you stayed awake forever or something.
edit: or i'm just insane and don;t feel like looking up what con does with temp vs full changes.
Incorrect. You are one being, there is no distinction between summoner and eidolon once fused.
The RAW stating that fact has already been quoted earlier in the thread.
what does that have to do with the eidolon's effective HP for adding temp hp? you only gain the ability scores, not it's HD with it's own con.
as mentioned the eidolon's con REPLACES, you don't use your eidlon's con, your score is replaced with his. the eidolon never actually gains a bonus to con.
edit: nevermind Darksol the Painbringer is wrong, i need to check my own information and not use others. :/
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When fused the belt adds to the eidolon not you, so you get only the extra HP to the eidolon and save bonus.When fused you use the eidolon's Con score to determine your own hit points.
Example: a 1st level synthesist with a 14 Con drops to a 13 Con, and loses 1 hp, while fused.
I don't think that works actually, maybe if you stayed awake forever or something.
edit: or i'm just insane and don;t feel like looking up what con does with temp vs full changes.
Did you miss reading the rules?
While fused with his eidolon, the synthesist uses the eidolon’s physical ability scores (Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution), but retains his own mental ability scores (Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma).
Even is the change in Con was treated as temporary, which it is not, it still affects hit points.
When fused the belt adds to the eidolon not you, so you get only the extra HP to the eidolon and save bonus.When fused you use the eidolon's Con score to determine your own hit points.
Example: a 1st level synthesist with a 14 Con drops to a 13 Con, and loses 1 hp, while fused.
I don't think that works actually, maybe if you stayed awake forever or something.
edit: or i'm just insane and don;t feel like looking up what con does with temp vs full changes.
Did you miss reading the rules?
While fused with his eidolon, the synthesist uses the eidolon’s physical ability scores (Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution), but retains his own mental ability scores (Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma).Even is the change in Con was treated as temporary, which it is not, it still affects hit points.
yes but it can only either effect your eidolon's score or your score at any given time.
if the effect is to use your eidolon in place of your scores, the bonus goes to eidolon and thus temp hp. If you use the score of but not your eidolon's actual attribute it goes to you and effects your HP, but not the temp hp you gain from your eidolon.
basically, either your eidolon is wearing the belt or you are. (and I believe it is always you since you cannot target the eidolon specifically, as mentioned, and thus the eidolon doesn't give a bonus to temp hp)
also, if your interpretation is correct, not really saying it's not, but if it is, then synthesist summoners get double con to HP.
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OMG everyone says something diferent lmao, why don' we all hit FAQ and let the rules question guys take care of it? I need everyone here to press FAQ, please do it!.
It is clear in the rules what happens.
As an example, lets take a level 1 summoner synthesist with Con of 10.
Assuming he took the bonus skill point for favored class, he has just max hit die plus con bonus for hp, 8.
If he fuses with his eidolon, his Con becomes 13. He still has 8 HP, and d10 + Con bonus in temporary HP. (I'm not sure if eidolons get full HP at 1st level, but I doubt it, so I'm going with the average of 6).
6+1(Con) = 7 temporary HP.
His HP look like 8(15).
Great. Now lets give him a belt of Con +2.
On his own, his Con is now 10(12), and his HP is 9. Pretty simple.
Fused with the eidolon, Con becomes 13(15). +2 bonus total. Temp HP is d10 + 2 or to go with the example earlier, 8 temp hp.
9 + 8 for hp, or 9(17). Tada!
Ah, you're right. I missed that. So, with belt HP 9. Fused, con becomes 13(15). So HP goes to 10. Combine with the (now correctly averaged 5+2 eidolon hp) and you get 10(17).
OMG everyone says something diferent lmao, why don' we all hit FAQ and let the rules question guys take care of it? I need everyone here to press FAQ, please do it!.It is clear in the rules what happens.
As an example, lets take a level 1 summoner synthesist with Con of 10.
Assuming he took the bonus skill point for favored class, he has just max hit die plus con bonus for hp, 8.
If he fuses with his eidolon, his Con becomes 13. He still has 8 HP, and d10 + Con bonus in temporary HP. (I'm not sure if eidolons get full HP at 1st level, but I doubt it, so I'm going with the average of 6).
6+1(Con) = 7 temporary HP.
His HP look like 8(15).
Great. Now lets give him a belt of Con +2.
On his own, his Con is now 10(12), and his HP is 9. Pretty simple.
Fused with the eidolon, Con becomes 13(15). +2 bonus total. Temp HP is d10 + 2 or to go with the example earlier, 8 temp hp.
9 + 8 for hp, or 9(17). Tada!
the eidolon never gets the bonus con, so temp hp isnt improved
to clarify it only ever effects the summoners con.
the con you get from your eidolon only counts for effects on your person. aka HP, not temp hp. so when it gets +2 your normal hp increases not temp.
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the eidolon never gets the bonus con, so temp hp isnt improved
to clarify it only ever effects the summoners con.
the con you get from your eidolon only counts for effects on your person. aka HP, not temp hp. so when it gets +2 your normal hp increases not temp.
While fused with his eidolon, the synthesist can use all of his own abilities and gear, except for his armor.
The belt of Con provides +2 con bonus. Fused Con = eidolon con. Fused still gets benefit of gear. Fused gets +2 con bonus.
the eidolon never gets the bonus con, so temp hp isnt improved
to clarify it only ever effects the summoners con.
the con you get from your eidolon only counts for effects on your person. aka HP, not temp hp. so when it gets +2 your normal hp increases not temp.
While fused with his eidolon, the synthesist can use all of his own abilities and gear, except for his armor.The belt of Con provides +2 con bonus. Fused Con = eidolon con. Fused still gets benefit of gear. Fused gets +2 con bonus.
except it doesn't, when your con is replaced by the eidolon, the only con that can be effected with +2 is yours (which is now equal to the eidolon).
The belt is only affecting one con stat\
summoner con: 10 +2
summoner hp: 11 (pretend this is one HD)
eidolon con: 20
order of operation for applying a synth
Eidolon hp is taken: 30 (let's just say it's 30)
Eidolon Con is taken: 20
Summoner con is changed to 20
Summoner gains Eidolon's hp as temp hp
belt of con is now added to summoner's new Con stat
summoner con: 20+2
eidolon's con: 20 (it can't be targeted and thus cannot gain the benefit of a magic item, nor can magic slot items be used by multiple entities)
summoner hp: 16(+30)
even if your eidolon gained con mid fight, or summon there is no clause that you would gain additional temp hp.
The real question is whether the Belt of Constitution affects the Eidolon at all. If the summoner is wearing the belt, then summons his eidolon, does the enhancement bonus affect the Eidolon, or is the summoner's enhanced Con score replaced by the Eidolon's unmodified score?
I feel this question is not explicitly answered by RAW and can be interpreted either way.
I believe you can give your eidolon permanent magic items to wear, other than armor, as long as the summoner doesn't have an item in the same magic item slot. So it would avoid the whole question if you gave the belt to your eidolon, so it would only exist on the character when the Eidolon was active. The down side of this is that now your summoner can't use his belt. Another down side is that when the Eidolon is dismissed, the summoner immediately loses the bonus (not temp) HP from having a high Con score. So a 5th level synthesist with a 10 Con, whose Eidolon has a 20 Con, immediately loses 25 bonus HP when the Eidolon goes away. If he's been feeding most of his own HP to the eidolon to keep it active, this will probably kill him.
So your Eidolon with a Con score of 18 will get it bumped up to 20 when the Eidolon is active, which replaces the Summoner's Con. Therefore, the summoner would get bonus HP as if his con was 20 while the Eidolon was active, in addition to the increased temporary hit points granted by the Eidolon's 20 Con score.
That's my reading, anyway, but your interpretation may differ.
That is because you are making assumptions about the rules that are wrong. The summoner's score is not replaced by the Eidolon's score. The summoner uses the Eidolon's score.The real question is whether the Belt of Constitution affects the Eidolon at all. If the summoner is wearing the belt, then summons his eidolon, does the enhancement bonus affect the Eidolon, or is the summoner's enhanced Con score replaced by the Eidolon's unmodified score?
I feel this question is not explicitly answered by RAW and can be interpreted either way.
While fused with his eidolon, the synthesist uses the eidolon's Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution,
*shrug* If a player in my game were trying it, I would have the enhancement bonus carry through. But I would not be totally shocked if another GM chose to interpret it so:
Your summoner has a 10 Con which is enahnced by the belt to 12. When you summon your eidolon, you use its Con of 18, which is not enhanced.
I'd probably argue that the summoner was using the 18, which then got the +2 Enhancement (as you're saying, if I understand your interpretation correctly), but if the GM stuck by the ruling, I wouldn't ragequit. I'd probably reconsider taking the item, or try to position it in such a way as to gain the bonus in Eidolon form according to his or her interpretation.
Remember that the Eidolon comes from another plane and he got his own HP before the Summoner call him. So those HP the Eidolon got are the ones that the summoner will gain as temporary HP once summoned, independently from what items the Summoner wear/got. The Eidolon got a fixed amount of HP unmodified by any item.
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You don't get any additional hp beside the temporary hp that comes from your eidolon and that's all. It doesn't matter if the eidolon or you are wearing the belt of mighty constitution. The only difference is how many hp you have and how many of them you gain from fusing.
Do you have any RAW to back that statement, or are you simply reiterating an unsupported opinion?
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yes but it can only either effect your eidolon's score or your score at any given time.
The synthesist only has a single Con scone at any given point in time. The number may change depending on the characters fused/unfused status, but there are never two numbers in play simultaneously.
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Guys please hit the FAQ button on top, lets have faith for the rules team
These questions have been addressed by the design team in the past.
There are quite a few developer posts on the subject in this thread if you want to dig through them all.
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OMG everyone says something diferent lmao, why don' we all hit FAQ and let the rules question guys take care of it? I need everyone here to press FAQ, please do it!.It is clear in the rules what happens.
As an example, lets take a level 1 summoner synthesist with Con of 10.
Assuming he took the bonus skill point for favored class, he has just max hit die plus con bonus for hp, 8.
If he fuses with his eidolon, his Con becomes 13. He still has 8 HP, and d10 + Con bonus in temporary HP. (I'm not sure if eidolons get full HP at 1st level, but I doubt it, so I'm going with the average of 6).
6+1(Con) = 7 temporary HP.
His HP look like 8(15).
Great. Now lets give him a belt of Con +2.
On his own, his Con is now 10(12), and his HP is 9. Pretty simple.
Fused with the eidolon, Con becomes 13(15). +2 bonus total. Temp HP is d10 + 2 or to go with the example earlier, 8 temp hp.
9 + 8 for hp, or 9(17). Tada!
Incorrect. The synthesist uses the eidolon's Con score while fused.
While fused with his eidolon, the synthesist uses the eidolon’s physical ability scores (Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution), but retains his own mental ability scores (Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma).
If you have RAW to refute that, please post it.
But an item giving twice the HP Bonus thats kinda odd. So it probably only rise HP and not temporary HPs. Synthesis its just quite a headache. This archetype shouldnt exist at all. XD Or have a lot more details because there are so many things out of the loop.
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The real question is whether the Belt of Constitution affects the Eidolon at all. If the summoner is wearing the belt, then summons his eidolon, does the enhancement bonus affect the Eidolon, or is the summoner's enhanced Con score replaced by the Eidolon's unmodified score?
While fused with his eidolon, the synthesist can use all of his own abilities and gear, except for his armor.
The belt is an enhancement bonus to Con, not a change to the base stat. (Unlike level based increases.)
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But an item giving twice the HP Bonus thats kinda odd. So it probably only rise HP and not temporary HPs. Synthesis its just quite a headache. This archetype shouldnt exist at all. XD Or have a lot more details because there are so many things out of the loop.
The Synthesist needs to be redone as a full fledged character class, with abilities rebalanced and all the corner cases cleaned up and clarified.
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So I stopped reading after a while because noone has been that great at providing the explanation for what happens.
The synth does get the double dip, Here is the best break down I can provide:
level 1 synthesist dumps con down to 7/-1. Unfused he has 6hp (max d8 -2=6).
his Eidolon has Con 13/+1 unfused it would have had 6hp (avg d10 round down + 1)
They Fuse becoming 1 being: The synthesists con score becomes like mist and vanishes as though it had never been. His HP are now calculated as if he had con 13: 9 (Maxd8 + 1) He then adds on the Eidolon's HP (above) as Temporary for a total of 15.
Along comes a +2 con belt the one being that is the synthesist puts on the belt. Because you still gain the benefits of your gear, and you use the Eidolon's con score, the eidolons con goes up 2 points.
Eidolons HP are now calculated like this: Con 15/+2 he has 7hp (average d10 round down +2)
Since the Synth uses the eidolons con instead of his own, he must also recalculate his HP as if he had a con of 15/+2 giving him 10hp (maxd8 +2) Then adds the Eidolon's 7 HP as temporary on top. giving him a new total HP of 17
Overall a 2 point increase 1 permanent and one temp.
Then the eidolon unfuses, the Synth then goes back to using his own ability score 7 + 2 from the belt 9/-1 calculating his HP as 7 (max d8 -1).
This is actually quite plainly apparent from how the Fused Eidolon ability is worded. When fused the Eidolon and the Synthesist both calculate their separate HP totals using the same ability score which is modified by what ever enhancement bonuses apply to the singular entity that they have become. The Eidolon's HP are then added to the Synthesist HP as Temporary.
Everyone seems to want to make this difficult but its really quite simple. in any event, I have Faq'd the OP so that the dev's can prove my case, or change the rules as written.