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This has bugged me for a while.
Irori is the god of self-perfection, right? Like, the god of making YOURSELF better though study, training, and enlightenment. I can certainly see people worshiping him, (like, following his example), but he wouldn't give his power to his followers, right? Doesn't that just make them weaker because they are not discovering power from themselves, but borrowing it from someone else?
Maybe I'm thinking too deeply about this, but all the other gods seem to have a reason for giving their followers power. Iomede wants to make sure mortals receive justice, Pharasma wants to make sure that mortals don't disrupt the circle of life, Saranrae wants to heal those that can be healed, and stop those that can't from harming others.
I mean, I guess I can see Irori wanting people to come to and understand enlightenment, but not by giving them a shortcut to power. That just seems counter to his philosophy.
I've always thought clerics got their spark of divine magic from their deity, but their spellcasting was their own. Specifically, gaining levels in cleric represented greater ability, not perks and promotions.
Teachers, so help initiates develop themselves in the right way. Monks dump Cha and don't get Diplomacy as a class skill, so they'll make lousy teachers.
Besides, monks are pretty weak and need a bit of help.
As for an evil cleric of Irori, you could do worse than model him on Mr Han from Enter the Dragon.
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A high-level Irori cleric kinda reminds me of the bodhisattva. They delay their own enlightenment in order to help others on the path.
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You are not overthinking this; this is the kind of thinking we could all stand to hear more from, and most people ought to practice more of, in contemporary gaming.
You can think of Clerics as barnacles: Where there is a great and powerful being whose existence simply radiates Power (i.e. a god), there will be hangers-on living off that Power.
If you want to be a great deal less cynical, you can think of Irori's Clerics as Irorans who choose the role of bodhisattva (one who elects to forestall personal enlightenment in the name of better helping others down the road).
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I always figured Clerics of Irori got their powers the same way that Clerics of ideals got them, and that Irori was simply the focus of their ideals(specifically, self-perfection). The magic would be coming from their faith in the idea that we should sustain ourselves and boost ourselves to perfection, and Irori would merely be the example of one who did. A sort of role model.
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I think the message has already been pretty well spoken so far. The bodhisattva ideal being the best in my mind to represent an Iroran cleric; not the only way, but probably the one I feel personally most comfortable with representing!
Unrelated, but @I'm Hiding In Your Closet: I can only hope that Besmara refers to her clerics/priests as Barnacles
also something to keep in mind...different gods are going to have different numbers of certain divine classes. I actually would expect that Irori has a much higher percentage of monks in his clergy than any other god, just like I sort of expect more warpriests for Gorum, paladins for Iomedae, etc.
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I know this sounds paradoxical, but there is something to be said about finding self-perfection through submission (in this case, the submission to a divine will). This is because it requires a person to change themselves internally (setting aside their wordly attachments and desires for pleasure) rather than externally changing the world. Further, the individual self (or soul) can be seen as just one measure of the self; an element of self can be found in the collective self, in the relations one has with the world and other people. Remember that in many societies, an individual doesn't have identity merely in a vacuum, but in how he relates with others. The ability to relate and connect (whether it be to one's deity or other people) is a worthy skill all in and of itself. Gaining levels in cleric (that is, the ability to draw from a divine wellspring of power) requires the same amount of XP as anything else.
Meditation doesn't just have to be about sitting on a mountaintop somewhere in exclusion. I get the feeling that the path to self-perfection isn't about isolation or self-separation; it's about existing in the world but not becoming mired in it. A person can become mired in the world even if he faithfully performs his monastic rituals in isolation (for example, if he becomes weighed down by an irrational desire/attachment to achieve enlightenment.) I don't see why there couldn't be certain spiritual practices that emphasize a way of to enlightenment through action (performing one's role in society without attachment or the accumulation of karma) and ways of enlightenment through devotion (achieving liberation through connection with a deity or even collective divine soul.)
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If you meet Buddha on the road, kill him.
*kills Mark*
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*supports Evil Lincoln*
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I'll stick with xavier c on this one -- I don't like Irori (or Zuoken). What's the point? (That's rhetorical.)
Maybe if we looked at deities in gaming more like Finder from FR, a cool mortal who somehow gains, er, "divinity?" but isn't really much of a "god" at all. (This is how I see Cayden Cailean, in fact.)
Imagine if the most powerful of the divinities were CR 30 or 31, and the lesser ones were CR 25 or 26.
I can only hope that Besmara refers to her clerics/priests as Barnacles
Nice.
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Irori's title is the Master of Masters. He's the one who teaches those who teach others. Self-perfection is not something you achieve alone; even the Buddha had teachers under which he studied. Irori is the Master of his clerics, as they are his students, to be guided along their own Paths.
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Irori's title is the Master of Masters. He's the one who teaches those who teach others. Self-perfection is not something you achieve alone; even the Buddha had teachers under which he studied. Irori is the Master of his clerics, as they are his students, to be guided along their own Paths.
I like that: it is a succinct and convincing argument.
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Imagine if the most powerful of the divinities were CR 30 or 31, and the lesser ones were CR 25 or 26.
Ravingdork, Magnuskn and Rynjin would open a massive thread on how they took out the entire Golarion pantheon in 5 rounds using level 17 PCs. I'm pretty sure such thread would be full of personal insults at developers AND at Greyhawkian grogrnars who would pop in to say "lol 3ed kids, killing gods like this is silly and no sane Mister Caven would ever allow you that". Player Entitlement vs. GM supremacy, fluff vs. crunch, 3E vs OSR etc.
Much grar and bile for little gain.
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That's the point, Gorbacz. Deities shouldn't be that much greater than, say, Razmir. Stronger for certain, but not so much so.
LOL, you 3ed kids, back when I started playing we killed Zeus and Odin with our PCs. It wasn't that hard; Lolth had 66 HP and a single dart with Drow sleep poison would take down Asmodeus.
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Yeah, but then you would have to answer the question: why aren't there a couple hundred (at least!) deities running around Golarion doing their groceries.
I'm afraid the days when "GM and author said so, obey" was enough to resolve such questions have sailed some time ago. Certainly more so for 3E players, who are much more mechanics-oriented.
Dieties that aren't much greater than Razmir is the niche filled by the various CR 20+ outsider demigods.
And actually, killable gods were a thing in 3E.
1E had god stats - though Asmodeus was not a god in 1E. Actual gods were much more bad-ass.
2E didn't provide stats (under 2E even "mere" demon lords like Demogorgon were actually given the "functionally untouchable" status).
3E provided god stats and rules for building them, so you could have god PCs if you wanted to. My group's final 3.X campaign before switching to Pathfinder actually did that. It was pretty bad-ass. (Aside: The powers available did get pretty crazy. A sufficiently strong deity could simply kill mortals at will with no save =P)
4E provided a handful god stats (Tiamat, Bahamut, Vecna, Lolth, and Torog, god of the underworld and torture), though each god that was statted had a unique condition that had to be met for the kill could happen.
I have no idea if 5E is going to provide god stats.
Pathfinder is going for somewhere between 2E and 3E - a whole range of god-like entities DO have stats, in a range from CR 20 (the malebranche) to CR 30 (Cthulhu, top-end outsider lords).
And then things "above" that are exempted from having stats, though there's implications floating around that occasionally a god gets pulled down to a state where they can be harmed and then a god gets schooled (Ydersius, Curchanus, Dou-Bral).
I'm fine with having the tier of statted demigod entities, and then there being a set of entities that "transcend" the rules and by-and-large aren't bound by them.
Doesn't that just make them weaker because they are not discovering power from themselves, but borrowing it from someone else?
If you follow that logic, then monks wouldnt need to train under a master, and the existence of monasteries would be against his teachings.
No, he wants people to follow their own path, but he will show a few lights on the way.
Arcanists borrow power from arcane forces, combatatnts do so from weapons, and so on. If Irori had to accept only those who do eveything on their own, he'd only accept as worshippers unarmed Monks who reject any tool and refuse any help. That would be close-minded and foolish.
But beyond that, even if most people use some sort of physical or metaphysical tool, they do so because they perfected them enough to wield that power, and divine magic is different from the rest only for its source. Besides, the source could be reached by hopping beyond Irori and going straight to the concepts, and a Cleric wouldn't be getting spells "from Irori".