I'm strongly considering switching the touch AC portion of the firearms rules to target flatfooted ACs instead. I loathe the idea of bullets punching through all armor or natural armor, no matter how strong.
I'm curious about if anyone else has done this in their games, and the results, especially to gunslinger PCs.
It makes more sense, yes, but it's way less powerful against most creatures. I would not play a gunslinger if that were the case.
I'm currently playtesting changes to firearms and gunslinger so that firearms no longer target touch, but add Dex to damage innately and no longer have a misfire chance unless the gun is broken.
I've done it. It works wonderfully.
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Remember, bullets only puncture armor at relatively close range. Natural armor may be different, but normal armor isn't designed to protect against bullets. We're not taking about present military grade bullet proof armor; we're talking about metal and leather plates designed to deflect heavy blows from a large amount of steel. The small bullet with a lot of force behind them will more easily puncture the metal sheet.
Natural armor may be different, especially considering the plethora of magica and fantastical creatures in the game.
(Either should be fine, I'm just trying to give a perspective for why touch was used vs flat footed).
I'm currently playtesting changes to firearms and gunslinger so that firearms no longer target touch, but add Dex to damage innately and no longer have a misfire chance unless the gun is broken.
What is the benefit of 5th level gunslinger, then? It's pretty much the go-to reason for playing a gunslinger at all, and you give it away for free, there's got to be something really good replacing that...
I'm currently playtesting changes to firearms and gunslinger so that firearms no longer target touch, but add Dex to damage innately and no longer have a misfire chance unless the gun is broken.What is the benefit of 5th level gunslinger, then? It's pretty much the go-to reason for playing a gunslinger at all, and you give it away for free, there's got to be something really good replacing that...
I reworked gun training to basically be the fighter's weapon training, except it works for all firearms. I also replaced several deeds, including making Deadshot deed make a single firearm attack target touch AC at the cost of a grit point.
That is ---considerably---weaker than dex to damage for 5th level, especially since it already works in the +1 progressive bonus inherently in the gunslinger class.
ive have used flat-footed instead for a long time. it works quite well.
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That is ---considerably---weaker than dex to damage for 5th level, especially since it already works in the +1 progressive bonus inherently in the gunslinger class.
That's the point. Some people feel the gunslinger is overpowered, and it needs a nerf.
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It is not that the gunslinger is overpowered. It is that it does not make sense for a gun to ignore all armor and natural armor, regardless of its value. You could have a planet sized turtle with natural armor +20000 and the most basic of basic pistols still ignores it. That's...not how guns actually work. And they never have.
Cyrad, how have you found your house rules to work?
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That is ---considerably---weaker than dex to damage for 5th level, especially since it already works in the +1 progressive bonus inherently in the gunslinger class.That's the point. Some people feel the gunslinger is overpowered, and it needs a nerf.
He also removed the misfire, which is a huge boost to the dpr (40% minmum to get at least one misfire when you do 4 attacks). In general is less annoying to use at early levels, and its much more balanced at high levels.
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It is not that the gunslinger is overpowered. It is that it does not make sense for a gun to ignore all armor and natural armor, regardless of its value. You could have a planet sized turtle with natural armor +20000 and the most basic of basic pistols still ignores it. That's...not how guns actually work. And they never have.
It's very difficult to talk about how guns *actually* work while at the same time talking about magical make-believe turtles. Guns in real life easily penetrated armor, it's simple physics. A small projectile with a massive amount of energy is easily able to penetrate a thin sheet of metal that is designed to deflect large objects at low velocity. it's a similar concept as to why bullet proof armor works well against small high velocity rounds but poorly against blades - the distribution of force upon impact is different. Guns in our magical make-believe world of pathfinder may not possess these same physical properties - and that's perfectly fine. This is why my first response specifically stated that natural armor may work differently than normal armor. Heck, it may even be useful to make it so guns only ignore x amount of armor or natural armor within the first range increment, rather than touch ac. Or even flat footed works well, for some people.
But claiming that guns shouldn't work as well as they do in our magical make believe world because we believe they wouldn't work this way in reality is just silly. We don't nerf the wizard because magic in the real world consists of shuffling cards from one hand to another or pulling a coin out of an ear. So why are we trying to tie a gunslinger to our world?
There is another option, though, that may work well if you'd like to incorporate reality into the game: bullet proof armor. Thicker metal armor was historically used to protect against guns. One source I read said that muskets could reliably puncture armor that was 2mm thick at 100 yards, but 2.7mm thick at 30 yards. 3 mm thick armor may well be considered bullet proof and would prevent the gunslinger from using touch AC at close range. It would cost more and weigh more, but it's historically accurate.
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Bookrat, even colonial period firearms weren't capable of reliably penetrating armor. Even with our modern weapons, we still need high caliber firearms to take down big game. The problem is that instead of having the goal of making a realistic portrayal of firearms or a fantastical fun portral of firearms, Paizo straddled a midpoint, which resulted in a broken, unfun weapon rules. Touch attacks are a flawed concept because every monster relies on natural armor. Touch attacks were originally designed to help mages hit with spells -- and they gave them to a full BAB class that can stack Dexterity.
It is not that the gunslinger is overpowered. It is that it does not make sense for a gun to ignore all armor and natural armor, regardless of its value. You could have a planet sized turtle with natural armor +20000 and the most basic of basic pistols still ignores it. That's...not how guns actually work. And they never have.
Cyrad, how have you found your house rules to work?
So far, the gunslinger in my campaign has found my house ruled firearms much more enjoyable. He hasn't made use of his new deeds yet, but his DPR has noticably increased.
This link should help: research on bullet resistant armor in the 16-1700s.
Basically, they had to make armor either thicker or multiple layered in order to disperse the enrgy of a bullet (aka bullet proof or bullet resistant). Which means that normal iron armor or even cheaper steel armor wouldn't have been enough to stop a bullet.
For a lot of these older style weapons, the shape of the bullet had a lot more to do with any lack of penetration - the round bullets of an older musket were not aerodynamic and lost energy quickly, making them penetrate much less reliably at range.
Glad to hear your house rules are working well, and I hope others are able to put them to use as successfully as you are. Happy gaming!
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But isn't it the case that most manufactured armor was strong against some weapons, less so against others? As I understand it, the way to kill a knight in full plate was to knock him off his horse, hammer on his plate until the joins don't function anymore, and then stab him in the armpits (through the joints) with a long thin dagger.
Chain mail doesn't do so well against hammer blows, although it'll work fine against slashing weapons. But a crossbow bolt is likely to go right through it.
I don't wanna dive down in a detailed discussion on that, I just wanted to illustrate the point that the firearms rules are based on a "realism" that isn't applied to other weapons, even though that would make just as much (or as little) sense.
Also, I can definitely see an argument for flat-footed as well: it's probably easier to dodge a big slow sword than a small fast bullet.
So... I'm curious how that works in practice, because I'm not super-convinced that the current gunslinger rules are the best possible rules. I'm curious about how the alternatives work out.
ive have used flat-footed instead for a long time. it works quite well.
So far, the gunslinger in my campaign has found my house ruled firearms much more enjoyable. He hasn't made use of his new deeds yet, but his DPR has noticably increased.
This sounds really promising. Been hoping to find an easily implemented alternative to the current rules, but the other ideas I've seen so far have suffered from needless complexity and/or required too much rework IMO.
@ christos gurd: Did you also introduce any other changes along with replacing the touch AC with flat-footed? Have you had any problems with it so far?
@ Cyrad: Have you also made any changes to make firearms more viable for classes other than the gunslinger? And if so, what impact have they had on your game so far?
I'd like to know more about your experiences.
Speaking of ideas inspired by RL historical weapons, wouldn't it also be a good idea to use the same rules for at least the heavy types of crossbows, and maybe also for other crossbows when firing at targets within a more limited range?
While this wouldn't bring crossbows up to par with firearms or bows, it seems like it could give them both a nudge in the right direction and a fitting unique mechanical edge (long range against flat-footed AC).
My problem is that it makes sense to target touch - unless they're otherwise unawares of the guy firing bullets or bolts at them, someone is actively trying to juke and dodge or otherwise not get hit so taking away their dexterity or dodge bonuses really doesn't 'click' with me. I can see why there might be some grievances but as it stands I think it makes the most sense to be hitting on touch AC at the close ranges.
More on the subject at hand: it's good to hear that your houserule is working out! Would be interested in seeing a bit more of a developed 'study' of a few gunslingers and groups to get a good idea of how things work.
So far, the gunslinger in my campaign has found my house ruled firearms much more enjoyable. He hasn't made use of his new deeds yet, but his DPR has noticably increased.This sounds really promising. Been hoping to find an easily implemented alternative to the current rules, but the other ideas I've seen so far have suffered from needless complexity and/or required too much rework IMO.
This is why I like to call my house rules "patch changes" where even the gunslinger changes read like a specialized archetype. I want the changes to be simple and compatible with existing rules. I did redo all of the firearms, but existing ones in UC still work.
@ Cyrad: Have you also made any changes to make firearms more viable for classes other than the gunslinger? And if so, what impact have they had on your game so far?
I'd like to know more about your experiences.
The following makes them a bit more accessible.
1) No misfires for proficient users means no PC needs the quick clear deed. This makes firearms a viable option for all classes.2) Ammunition costs less. I lowered the price of all firearms by about 50%.
3) Dexterity to damage makes firearms attractive as an alternative to composite bows.
I also personally house ruled that PCs can get exotic weapon proficiency as a trait. I would also imagine a battered gun would make a reasonable trait as well. So far, no one else in the party has taken advantage of the accessibility. However, the party does have an NPC witch that's the gunslinger's girlfriend. After buying a pair of flintlock revolvers for himself, he gave her his old double-barreled musket. Without any feats, she can only get one or two shots per combat, so she typically fires once and then swaps weapons. However, she did manage to hit a low-armored target with the doubled shot last combat for about 30 damage.
Last session, I presented a roughly CR = APL encounter with four CR 4 enemies and two CR 7 enemies. The enemies were fairly low armored (16 AC), but had slightly above average hitpoints. With Rapid Shot and TWFing revolvers, the gunslinger was getting off 4 shots per round and doing 1d8+8 damage a shot (12.5 average). Each shot had a 10% chance to crit. His damage seemed stable, though he only got one crit. When he crits more, it'll get more ridiculous, but I'll have to see if that balances out with higher armored targets.
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First off I've never played nor been in a game with a gunslinger so I can't comment on balance issues however thematically I could see them not targetting touch on natural or magically enhanced armours unless they had a magic gun i.e. magically enhanced amunition. Try shooting a wild boar with a normal pistol (flintlock or matchlock from this era if you can get one) and see what happens.
I totally agree with you about this, and I usually get slightly nauseated whenever I hear "realism" being brought up as the most important argument as to why a game mechanic should be designed in a certain way. So to clarify, my reasoning behind the crossbow changes are in my last paragraph:Dont try to bring realism into pf it will make your head hurt.
You dont have discussions of this if why a a mace should target touch ac or for instance a crossbow at point blank range
...could give them both a nudge in the right direction and a fitting unique mechanical edge...
That I believe my idea also happened to be somewhat fitting with the properties of real crossbows just means it's also more likely to be used by people having a more "simulationist" type of mindset.
(Hypothetically speaking, I would of course prefer a mechanic also able to convey the feel of the real thing over one that doesn't, assuming everything else was being equal.)Unfortunately, I think Paizo devs as well as many players still have a tendency to let their subjective "fantasy realism" or various myths about RL medieval gear dictate mechanics. Which IMO all too often results in increased balance problems (notably the magic/mundane issues) and/or overly complex stuff which boggs down gameplay and fun.
@Senko: If you shot a hog with one, it would probably die I guess? I mean in my experience with hunting there really isn't too much with a hide thick enough to stop, or even particularly slow, a shot put into it - the main factor is where you put a shot. It isn't like people didn't hunt with early firearms or anything despite having bows around alongside.
Back to the subject at hand: does that mean that alongside gunsmithing the price for ammunition and the like is even further reduced Cyrad? I always felt like they were overpriced in general but never really bothered changing things around - the people who wanted to play with guns were gunslingers anyways since, y'know, it's in the name.
I haven't codified the ammunition yet, but right now I'm playtesting with 1 gp/dose of black powder and 6 gp/paper cartridge. Gunsmithing cuts this in half, though it's a bit obsolete with my Craft skill house rules, so I'm considering other possible uses for Gunsmithing. Other alchemical cartridges will have 50% the listed price in Ultimate Combat, though I plan to rework them sometime.
Normal bullets have such a negigible value that a player only needs to track black powder. I never understood why half-ounce lead ball costs 20 times more than a pound of copper. They're easy to make as well, provided you have a flame and gunsmithing kit.
For flavor reasons, the gunslinger doesn't like using the Gunsmithing feat in my campaign. He prefers to buy his stuff rather than craft it. So, I allowed him to buy ammo at the price he'd get it with Gunsmithing. Firearm merchants give ammunition discounts to "people with grit."
Guns targeting flat footed AC is actually a huge buff to rogues too. They can get their sneak attacks off as long as they stay within 30 feet!
Why stop at firearms? Let's make all weapon attacks more realistic!
All sharp things deal bleed damage in addition to regular damage!
Guns targeting flat footed AC is actually a huge buff to rogues too. They can get their sneak attacks off as long as they stay within 30 feet!Rogues are underpowered anyways, i guess they could use some love
Agreed. And making a second class good with firearms is not a bad thing.
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Wow, listen to the hate in this thread.
I've got a level 12 gunslinger in PFS and have always thought it would be better and make more sense to have guns target flatfooted AC rather than touch AC.
I don't know the specifics of what metal armor Back Then was like, and I don't really care - it's a lot more believable to me for armor to stop a bullet than it is to believe a character can use his dexterity to dodge the bullet. Yes, magic exists in the world, but this isn't magic.
The range for my musket master has almost never been an issue - 40ft is huge, and I can extend that to 50ft with a bit of grit. Granted pistols are more of a problem, but no more so than with another ranged character.
Misfires add to the game, I'd never put Reliable on my musket, and I've run into some terrible scenarios before where I've had consistently awful dice rolling luck in a single encounter.
Kain, I'm glad you've brought this up.
@ Cyrad: Thanks for sharing! Read up on your houserules and found quite a lot potentially useful there. My main question/doubt regarding your changes can be condensed into the following:
What makes a musket competitive with a bow for a level 11+ PC with full BAB?
If using Paizo's official rules, the answer to that question would be: "the PC is a musket master". Which would translate into: "the PC deals a lot more damage than any other ranged build can, but cannot really do anything else worth a crap, and no other class/archetype can make good use of the musket". These answers are almost the opposite of those I would prefer for my game, in which I'm hoping to make firearms worthwhile and good ranged alternatives for dedicated builds, despite not even including the gunslinger (or monk, fighter, ranger, cavalier or rogue) unless specifically requested by a player for a dip.
Also, IMO, 2-handed ranged weapons should offer substantial benefits if there are 1-handed/light ranged weapons which can be used with TWF effectively, since ranged attacks virtually removes the greatest trade-offs of TWFing in melee (lessened damage bonuses and poor single attacks). How do you (plan to) approach this issue?
I use incorporeal touch AC against firearms if given the choice. mage armor and shield, and effects/items based off of these spells such as bracers of armor and shield rings, apply against bullets in full.
@ Cyrad: Thanks for sharing! Read up on your houserules and found quite a lot potentially useful there. My main question/doubt regarding your changes can be condensed into the following:
What makes a musket competitive with a bow for a level 11+ PC with full BAB?
If using Paizo's official rules, the answer to that question would be: "the PC is a musket master". Which would translate into: "the PC deals a lot more damage than any other ranged build can, but cannot really do anything else worth a crap, and no other class/archetype can make good use of the musket". These answers are almost the opposite of those I would prefer for my game, in which I'm hoping to make firearms worthwhile and good ranged alternatives for dedicated builds, despite not even including the gunslinger (or monk, fighter, ranger, cavalier or rogue) unless specifically requested by a player for a dip.
Also, IMO, 2-handed ranged weapons should offer substantial benefits if there are 1-handed/light ranged weapons which can be used with TWF effectively, since ranged attacks virtually removes the greatest trade-offs of TWFing in melee (lessened damage bonuses and poor single attacks). How do you (plan to) approach this issue?
No ranged weapon should beat the bow, in my opinion. The bow is the benchmark.
That being said, have you read my house rules for the musket master? They receive a deed that grants them free Vital Strike feats with two-handed firearms at earlier levels than normal. I intend to establish two-handed firearms as longer ranged firearms that can only shoot once per round, but hit like a truck. In addition, I want to present scatter guns as a fun niche build. I intend to test scatter weapons next session in my campaign by introducing enemies carrying blunderbusses.
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Wow, listen to the hate in this thread.
I've got a level 12 gunslinger in PFS and have always thought it would be better and make more sense to have guns target flatfooted AC rather than touch AC.
I don't know the specifics of what metal armor Back Then was like, and I don't really care - it's a lot more believable to me for armor to stop a bullet than it is to believe a character can use his dexterity to dodge the bullet. Yes, magic exists in the world, but this isn't magic.
The range for my musket master has almost never been an issue - 40ft is huge, and I can extend that to 50ft with a bit of grit. Granted pistols are more of a problem, but no more so than with another ranged character.
Misfires add to the game, I'd never put Reliable on my musket, and I've run into some terrible scenarios before where I've had consistently awful dice rolling luck in a single encounter.
Kain, I'm glad you've brought this up.
This is true, the gunslinger is not by any means broken, except maybe at very high levels, and most characters are broken at very high levels anyway.
I however dont like the touch attack/misfire system, it amkes you suck early, is annoying, random and it get broken from at level 13 onwards.
I would prefer to have a functional gunslinger from lvl 1, and not to wait to lvel 5 to be meaningfulm, than to be uberzor at level 13
Misfires add to the game, I'd never put Reliable on my musket, and I've run into some terrible scenarios before where I've had consistently awful dice rolling luck in a single encounter.
I eliminated reliable as a magic quality in my campaign. The only concession I make is to have masterwork effect reliability instead of strike.