Let's take one effect for which the rules say it affects "allies", such as a Paladin's Aura of Courage, and creatures within the area.
Now, apart from the obvious cases, how do you define those creatures in the following situations? Allies or not (or better, valid targets or not)?
1) An actual ally that is invisible, hidden or anyway not visible for the Paladin. The Paladin knows he is there and invisible/hidden/whatever, but doesn't know his actual position. He may also move in or out of the area at any given round while unseen; would that change his being a valid/non-valid target?
2) As above, except the Paladin doesn't know that he's there at all.
3) A creature that by default isn't nominally an ally of the Paladin, but is being magically controlled by someone who is an actual ally, and thus used as if it was an ally.
4) A creature that the Paladin considers an ally, but isn't reciprocated. For example, a Doppelganger in disguise, but maybe even someone that just disagrees with the Paladin's view/goals or doesn't trust him, while the Paladin himself considers him trustworthy, instead. Such difference in each other's reciprocal consideration may be known or hidden for one or both parties.
5) The opposite of the above: Paladin doesn't consider him an ally, while he does.
What's your take on these?
And, of course, if you can think up of other cases, bring them on.
Any creature that the producer of the effect (the Paladin, in the examples above) considers an ally, wheter the target actually is or not, and that can be clearly seen or perceived at least once for each round in which the effect would be applied (one-time effects, such as most spells, which opposedly to an aura aren't constantly ongoing, only take into consideration allies that are so considered in the round the effect is produced, not creatures considered allies at later times).
So, my answers to the above:
1) Yes, but only for the rounds in which the Paladin can pinpoint the position of the target and confirm his identity with sufficient certainty (wether by seeing invisibility, recognizing the voice, etc.), or at least doesn't have a reason to think it's someone else. If it's an invisible creature mimicking an actual ally's voice, the Paladin will mistakenly consider it an ally and thus a valid target.
2) No, because the Paladin must be aware of the target.
3) Paladin's choice. In a normal "easy-going" situation, he can consider the creature an ally, but if the Paladin has reason to think the creature could break free of control at any moment and turn into a foe, he may choose to not consider it an ally.
4) Yes, because the Paladin thinks the other is an ally.
5) No, because the Paladin thinks he isn't.
It's all a matter of what works best for your group. Obviously, a paladin knows who he considers an ally and doesn't need to target the ability as Nefreet said above, so an hidden ally within range would still get the bonus. Personally, I think controlled creatures would get the bonus if they have been around for a while and the paladin has grown comfortable around them, but they would lose the bonuses if the control is broken. Now, the last two are trickiest, I think. The paladin should have some control over the effect so example four should work. For number 5 to be determined, it must be decided whether the paladin is using his divine influence to intentionally strengthen his allies or are his allies drawing inspiration from him. The answer to the last example is dependent on how you think Aura of Courage is used, fluff-wise anyway.
Or the answers could all vary depending on story necessity.
Auras affect you whether you're invisible or not, since they're an emanation. No targeting necessary.
Except "affects allies". Meaning a creature must fulfill the ally requisite while being in the area, otherwise it isn't affected. And since "ally" is not defined, here we are.
Obviously, a paladin knows who he considers an ally and doesn't need to target the ability as Nefreet said above.
Not that obviously, since, as said above, do you consider an ally someone whom you don't even know he's there?
I would say that both the caster AND the target would have to believe themselves allied (even if only allies of convenience). I used to believe it was only the caster that mattered, but I think the target matters too.
See also these threads.
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p8pk?What-officially-constitutes-an-ally#2
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Obviously, a paladin knows who he considers an ally and doesn't need to target the ability as Nefreet said above.Not that obviously, since, as said above, do you consider an ally someone whom you don't even know he's there?
Yes.
I consider my mother an ally. As far as I know, she is not in the same city as me let alone within 30ft. But I consider her an ally whether she is near or far, whether I know where she is or not.
Asking whether someone can be your ally if you don't know they're physically present is like asking whether you can love someone if you don't know where they are. The mental/emotional response is separate from visually identifying them in a room.
Now, if there's an invisible person present that the paladin has not met - that the paladin not only doesn't know is present, but doesn't know exists anywhere - then there's a question, but that falls under the blanket of whether "ally" is determined by the source or the target of the effect, not whether invisibility messes things up.
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Auras affect you whether you're invisible or not, since they're an emanation. No targeting necessary.Except "affects allies". Meaning a creature must fulfill the ally requisite while being in the area, otherwise it isn't affected. And since "ally" is not defined, here we are.
Obviously, a paladin knows who he considers an ally and doesn't need to target the ability as Nefreet said above.Not that obviously, since, as said above, do you consider an ally someone whom you don't even know he's there?
Emanations (and bursts, FWIW) have no ability to target. It doesn't matter whether you're casting Bane or generating an aura. Allies and enemies are effected regardless of line of sight.
Determining who counts as an ally and who does not seems like it would require some OOC adjudication, and may be subject to GM discretion, but it should come up very infrequently, so I wouldn't worry about it.
I would say that both the caster AND the target would have to believe themselves allied (even if only allies of convenience). I used to believe it was only the caster that mattered, but I think the target matters too.
See also these threads.
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p8pk?What-officially-constitutes-an-ally#2
Uhm? Where is the target's part discussed in there?
I consider my mother an ally. As far as I know, she is not in the same city as me let alone within 30ft. But I consider her an ally whether she is near or far, whether I know where she is or not.
Asking whether someone can be your ally if you don't know they're physically present is like asking whether you can love someone if you don't know where they are. The mental/emotional response is separate from visually identifying them in a room.
That is if you take the broadest possible definition of "ally", instead of "ally in that moment, for battle purposes". That would imply some quite odd things. For example, if you have a friend who is fighting against you for some reason and there's no hard feelings on your part, you'd be forced to give him bonuses even if in that case you wouldn't want to. Or that if you use an effect that makes allies do something or gives them bonuses that embolden them, your invisible mother will do that unbeknownst to you, maybe putting herself in a danger you didn't want; if you knew she was there you wouldn't have considered her a battle ally. Etc.
Now, if there's an invisible person present that the paladin has not met - that the paladin not only doesn't know is present, but doesn't know exists anywhere - then there's a question, but that falls under the blanket of whether "ally" is determined by the source or the target of the effect, not whether invisibility messes things up.
Depending on the answer to that, invisibility may or may not have a weight.
"Obvious" is much arguable.Determining who counts as an ally and who does not seems like it would require some OOC adjudication, and may be subject to GM discretion, but it should come up very infrequently, so I wouldn't worry about it.
Seems like? It actually does, and it comes up every time you use an effect that only targets allies (or foes, since the same concepts apply). Maybe you don't notice that because usually it's clear that the other three PCs are allies and the two Goblins are foes, but what was discussed here is exactly the non-standard situations.
My default opinion is that the controller of the effect decides who is and isn't an ally.
The only reasons I can see that a GM should get involved is determining if an effect requires a target then whether it can or not. If it doesn't target then just find out if the character considers someone an ally or not. That and magic - charm person etc. obviously requires GM input.
Anything else seems to step on the toes of player autonomy to me.
1) yes at all times (it doesn't target)
2) yes he's an ally within an emanation (emanations don't care if you can perceive someone, they affect everyone regardless)
3) yes, the paladin controls the effect so an ally is determined by him. This also means that as soon as a controlled creature isn't controlled it is no longer an ally.
4) yes, see 3
5) no, because it really doesn't matter how much you consider yourself an ally of the paladin, it doesn't affect how he sees you.
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Determining who counts as an ally and who does not seems like it would require some OOC adjudication, and may be subject to GM discretion, but it should come up very infrequently, so I wouldn't worry about it.Seems like? It actually does, and it comes up every time you use an effect that only targets allies (or foes, since the same concepts apply). Maybe you don't notice that because usually it's clear that the other three PCs are allies and the two Goblins are foes, but what was discussed here is exactly the non-standard situations.
I think you are exaggerating a bit.
For the vast majority of your encounters, this question will never come up. 20 years of gaming, with different groups, under different systems, and I can count those instances on maybe one hand. For the occasional time that it does come up, work it out. This is a social game. Talk about it with the other members of your table.
You're not going to find something written about how to handle these situations.
Yeah, basically this^.
The magic doesn't care: if they are an ally, they are affected.
If the are not, they are not.
It doesn't seem that difficult a question.
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I consider my mother an ally. As far as I know, she is not in the same city as me let alone within 30ft. But I consider her an ally whether she is near or far, whether I know where she is or not.
Asking whether someone can be your ally if you don't know they're physically present is like asking whether you can love someone if you don't know where they are. The mental/emotional response is separate from visually identifying them in a room.
That is if you take the broadest possible definition of "ally", instead of "ally in that moment, for battle purposes". That would imply some quite odd things. For example, if you have a friend who is fighting against you for some reason and there's no hard feelings on your part, you'd be forced to give him bonuses even if in that case you wouldn't want to. Or that if you use an effect that makes allies do something or gives them bonuses that embolden them, your invisible mother will do that unbeknownst to you, maybe putting herself in a danger you didn't want; if you knew she was there you wouldn't have considered her a battle ally. Etc.
Now, if there's an invisible person present that the paladin has not met - that the paladin not only doesn't know is present, but doesn't know exists anywhere - then there's a question, but that falls under the blanket of whether "ally" is determined by the source or the target of the effect, not whether invisibility messes things up.Depending on the answer to that, invisibility may or may not have a weight.
"Obvious" is much arguable.
Being able to declare someone as an ally (or not an ally) in the moment doesn't mean you can't also declare someone an ally (or not an ally) by default.
If I am playing a competitive game with a friend, or if a party member has been dominated in combat, I naturally do not consider that person an ally temporarily. However, that requires that I have specific knowledge that these persons are acting against me in order to revise my default assumption that they are allies. If my "friend" is sabotaging my relationships behind my back, or if the party member has been charmed by the BBEG and I don't notice, then I continue to consider them allies - regardless of whether I know their precise position or activities at any given time.
Now, if the target determines whether they are considered an ally, the backstabbing friend and the mind-controlled party member don't get bonuses from a paladin's aura, etc. But again the target's assessment of whether they are allied with the paladin is independent of whether the paladin knows exactly where they are and what they are doing.