Swapping a discipline in many cases is already a boost enough compared to the draw back of an Oath. Hack Oaths often aren't even drawbacks if they were something you were planning to roleplay anyway.
If we've done our job right, swapping a discipline is zero-sum, because one school should be roughly equivalent to another. The Oath isn't there to "balance" the discipline swap. It's there to be cool.
When I said boost I meant in the "this fits my character" as opposed to a mechanical gain.
Like if someone wanted to run a selfish Warlord and swapped Golden Lion for X discipline.
I wasn't implying the Oath was to balance a disc swap, I was saying that it's there to balance vs the allegiance benefits.
Monks not having Broken Blade feels like Paladins without Golden Lion, Rangers without Solar Wind, and Barbarians without Primal Fury.
That would be true if this archetype was meant to be the same flavor as the basic Monk.
It isn't though, so that complaint is equivalent to saying "well my fighter took the archer archetype, so why did he get worse at melee."
If what you want is something with the same/similar fluff/niche as a Monk then play a Stalker and grab that Stalker Talent for IUS and prof with ALL Monk weapons at level 1. You get Broken Blade, Ki, and Dteel Serpent.
I've made some updates to the Alchemist/Investigator discoveries to clear up a few issues. Go ahead and give them a look over if you feel like it.
Every discovery grants ability to ready any number of maneuvers, freely rotated each day?
What about martial stance? It feels like stances are locked and each one requires spending another discovery, but wording is still not clear IMO.
Every discovery grants ability to ready any number of maneuvers, freely rotated each day?
Its not "any number" its "up to the maximum number of extract slots you have."
What about martial stance? It feels like stances are locked and each one requires spending another discovery, but wording is still not clear IMO.
Stances can be changed daily as well. You're still limited to 1 active stance and entering or leaving a stance is still a standard action. The only thing that has changed is that now stances take up an extract slot as well.
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Here's a Prince approved draft of the Mirrored Soul, a Summoner archetype that trades spellcasting for initiating.
Let me know what you think.
Note that though the evolution pool reduction seems pretty harsh, you've got two highly synergized combatants who can maintain different stances, activate separate boosts, etc. I may still kick the points up a notch, but I'd like to see some playtest results at the current, more conservative, level first.
On a quick glance through I only have one question: Why Golden Lion? I can see that these two would be working in tandem, but Golden Lion is a discipline of leadership and group coordination. For an archetype so focused on two specific people I don't know if such a party oriented Discipline works.
I have an idea that may work if this is something you would be willing to budge on
-restrict bonuses from Golden Lion to the Mirrored Souls, but offer a benefit. Maybe +1 round of duration, +1atk/Dmg when using an effect that would normally assist allies, maybe a bonus to critical confirmation roles, something like that.
Aside from that I like that so many evo points are traded away and that spells are traded away since those are probably the two biggest points of contention for the Summoner. Some clarification on how half the points would be lost though? Does the Eidolan start with half then gain them half as often?
I like Fractured Reflection and Conjoined combatant, they offer a cool "team worky" feel to the Mirrored Souls.
Perfect Union is also very cool, but comes online a little late. Does it replace Merge forms?
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On a quick glance through I only have one question: Why Golden Lion? I can see that these two would be working in tandem, but Golden Lion is a discipline of leadership and group coordination. For an archetype so focused on two specific people I don't know if such a party oriented Discipline works.
I have an idea that may work if this is something you would be willing to budge on
-restrict bonuses from Golden Lion to the Mirrored Souls, but offer a benefit. Maybe +1 round of duration, +1atk/Dmg when using an effect that would normally assist allies, maybe a bonus to critical confirmation roles, something like that.Aside from that I like that so many evo points are traded away and that spells are traded away since those are probably the two biggest points of contention for the Summoner. Some clarification on how half the points would be lost though? Does the Eidolan start with half then gain them half as often?
I like Fractured Reflection and Conjoined combatant, they offer a cool "team worky" feel to the Mirrored Souls.
Perfect Union is also very cool, but comes online a little late. Does it replace Merge forms?
Whoops! Yes, Perfect Union should replace Merg Forms. You don't really want that ability since the archetype relies on having both the summoner and the eidolon on the field.
A big part of the reason for Golden Lion is so that there's a good pool of options for boosts as both halfs will want to be popping them pretty regularly and I wanted to emphasize that aspect where there capabilities are greatly improved by their cooperation with each other. I don't know that it's worth the design space to create special rules for Golden Lion when some players won't be using it or might trade it away for another discipline.
The Eidolon should always 1/2 the listed value in points at any given level, so 3 becomes 1, 4 becomes 2, all the way up to 26 being 13. I may ratchet that back up a bit so that Aspect and Greater Aspect provide the intended benefit. Alternatively, I could tweak Aspect and Greater Aspect so that the debited points are credited directly to the Summoner.
Hmmm.... I kind of like that.
Weaker than both Summoner and Eidolon getting Martial Training. Probably weaker than Leadership for initiator cohort.
~8th level casting, half of evolutions, and Summon Monster are IMO worth two separate full initiations, if not more.
Does it stack with Wild Caller? If it does, evolutions reduction is almost offset.
To be fair, anything that is an even trade with the Summoner wont be pretty.
As I like to say about archetypes:
As a character it's great
As an archetype it's a failure
(The assumption is that a successful archetype makes an even trade in terms of power)
That said I have no problems with this archetype appearing and I think it's relatively balanced VS standard initiators.
These guys with Teamwork feats would be a pretty scary sight too.
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A class with features worth "2 separate full initiations" may perhaps be a little over the top. Just saying.
I like the ways Ssalarn has used the summoner, both here and in Akashic Mysteries. They are supposedly "weaker," but provide such interesting options that I don't give a hoot. They feel balanced relative to the material they are presented alongside, which I care more about.
Just caught an error.There is no text to determine fractured reflection's duration.
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A class with features worth "2 separate full initiations" may perhaps be a little over the top. Just saying.
I like the ways Ssalarn has used the summoner, both here and in Akashic Mysteries. They are supposedly "weaker," but provide such interesting options that I don't give a hoot. They feel balanced relative to the material they are presented alongside, which I care more about.
Just caught an error.There is no text to determine fractured reflection's duration.
Corrected that error. I also added in an ability that replaces Aspect and Greater Aspect while achieving the desired effect of granting the summoner a pool of their own evolutions.
I noted this over on the GitP forums as well, but I think people are really underestimating the value of the class' new features and maneuver recovery method; a mirrored soul who has expended their maneuvers can have their eidolon drop back behind them and grant the Conjoined Combatant bonuses while recovering maneuvers for them and the MS can keep right on popping maneuvers. You can also use "yo-yo" techniques with Maker's call, chain two charge attacks with Transposition while keeping one half of the character safely out of reprisal range, etc. There's a lot of really fun stuff going on here you can play with, and it's well balanced to the bulk of the other materials out there (if not necessarily the core Summoner itself, but I don't consider that a bad thing).
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There are also hilariously fun combos if someone uses some PoW2 feats and Veiled Moon in conjuction with Shattered Mirror. Mirror of the Moon has hilarious gameplay implications with this archetype.
Here's a Prince approved draft of the Mirrored Soul, a Summoner archetype that trades spellcasting for initiating.
Let me know what you think.Note that though the evolution pool reduction seems pretty harsh, you've got two highly synergized combatants who can maintain different stances, activate separate boosts, etc. I may still kick the points up a notch, but I'd like to see some playtest results at the current, more conservative, level first.
*Sees link to doc* *Gets excited* *Reads Doc*
*Is slightly disappointed*
Man I hoped to use elemental flux and a Synthesist summoner whose eidolon turned his eyes blue and made his hair gold/stand on end... Ow well, its still cool. I just wish more of your archtypes could work together with other archtypes.
Does the Softcover PoW1 have a color cover or a BW cover?
Turns out I only had enough to buy the BW PoW1, guess It's time to hope it's got a color cover!
Yay! I've been waiting for proper income since that book was released. Finally got some, so purchased!
Looking forward to PoW2 sub now.
So, in an effort to get some cross-designer pollinating going, the bossman asked each of the three base class designers on the team to write an archetype for the two classes they didn't work on.
Now for your viewing/testing/critiquing pleasure, I present the Void Prophet, a Zealot archetype that reveals the glory and despair of the eternal nothingness to those who dare defy her.
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I finally got a chance to test out the harbinger pb25.
Hp:55
AC:21
str 12, dex 18, con 14, int, 16 wis 11 cha 10
feats: Dark Presence, combat reflexes, weapon fineness, piranha strike.
gear: +1 chain shirt, +1 gladius, +1 adapt comp. longbow, +1 buckler
mk tonfa, Dungeoneering kit, deluxe, x5 tanglefoot bags, x4 cold iron WB, x6 silver wb
GP: 64
Man
Spilled Salt
Luck Shifting
PANTHERA ON THE HUNT
DIMENSIONAL STRIKE
Copycat Cut
Mockery
Murderous Spite
Dogpile Strike
Stances
Aura of Shared Misery
aggression
Aura of Misfortune
And here is the test party
Female noral vitalist 5
NG Medium humanoid (noral)
Init +3; Senses low-light vision; Perception +14
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Defense
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AC 18, touch 11, flat-footed 17 (+7 armor, +1 Dex)
hp 56 (5d6+20)
Fort +7, Ref +2, Will +10; +2 bonus vs. disease., +2 bonus vs. mind-affecting effects.
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft. (20 ft. in armor)
Melee +1 heavy mace +4 (1d8+2)
Ranged +1 light crossbow +4 (1d8+1/19-20)
Psi-Like Abilities (CL 5th; concentration +5)
. . 1/day—mind thrust (DC 11)
Vitalist Powers Known (power points 42, ML 5th; concentration +11)
. . 3rd—kozak’s crisis of breath (DC 19)
. . 2nd—body adjustment
. . 1st—biofeedback, collapse (DC 0), natural healing
. . 0 (at will)—detect psionics, sicken body (DC 16), siphon
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Statistics
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Str 12, Dex 12, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 22, Cha 10
Base Atk +2; CMB +3; CMD 14
Feats Body Fuel, Medium Armor Proficiency, Psionic Body, Psionic Talent
Traits perceptive talent, reactionary
Skills Acrobatics -3 (-7 to jump), Heal +14, Perception +14, Sense Motive +7
Languages Common, Common, Noral
SQ collective, collective healing, health sense, request aid, soulthief's touch, spirit of many, steal health, symbiotic resistance, symbiotic surge, telepathy, transfer wounds, vitalist method (soulthief method)
Combat Gear acolyte ale (5); Other Gear +1 four-mirror, +1 heavy mace, +1 light crossbow, headband of inspired wisdom +2, candle (2), chalk, everburning torch, hammer, masterwork backpack, piton (4), sack (2), silk rope (50 ft.), sunrod (3), tindertwig (4), 228 gp
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Special Abilities
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Body Fuel You can expand your power point total at the expense of your health.
Collective (Su) You have a collective of up to 6 individuals within 150 ft.
Collective Healing (Su) Whenever a willing member of the vitalist's collective could regain lost hit points or ability damage, the vitalist may choose to redirect any or all of that healing to one or more other willing members of the collective as a free action. This can tr
Health Sense Beginning at 2nd level, a vitalist may take a swift action to gauge the relative health level of collective members, determining the amount of damage, in hit points, that an ally has taken. In addition, the vitalist may make a Heal check as a standar
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in low light, distinguishing color and detail.
Perceptive Talent While maintaining psionic focus you are more aware on a subliminal level of the thoughts and intentions of those around you. You gain a +1 trait bonus on initiative and on Sense Motive checks while you are psionically focused. This talent grants no b
Psionic Body Bonus HP +6
Psionic Talent Gain an additional 2 power points.
Request Aid (Su) Starting at 5th level, members of a vitalist's collective are able to request aid from the vitalist, should he not realize such aid is needed. As a standard action, any member of the collective can request healing from the vitalist. The vitalist can
Soulthief Method A soulthief vitalist develops techniques that focus on harnessing the energy of enemies, siphoning it off and using it to heal himself and his allies.
Soulthief Power: A soulthief vitalist adds collapse to his list of powers know
Soulthief's Touch A soulthief vitalist of 2nd level who utilizes transfer wounds can choose to instead deal the amount of damage that transfer wounds would normally heal plus the soulthief's class level to the target, healing himself a number of hit points equal to th
Spirit of Many (Su) A vitalist of 2nd level gains special abilities when manifesting powers with the Network descriptor. He can manifest these powers on any member of his collective, even if they are out of the power's range or would normally be immune to the power. Whe
Steal Health (Su) At 3rd level, a vitalist has learned to siphon the health of a creature and use it for his own needs or the needs of his collective. As a touch attack, the vitalist may deal a number of hit points in damage to the target equal to his vitalist level +
Symbiotic Resistance The symbiotic bond between the noral and the erliss grants all bonded norals a +2 racial bonus on saving throws against disease and mind-affecting effects.
Symbiotic Surge (1/day) A noral is able to tap into the power of the symbiote to gain a temporary boost. Once per day, a noral can exhaust the symbiote to add 1d6 to a single d20 roll. This decision must be made prior to the result of the roll is determined.
Telepathy (Su) When a vitalist reaches 3rd level, all willing members of his collective (including the vitalist himself) can communicate with each other telepathically, even if they do not share a common language. Psionic creatures who are willing members in a vita
Transfer Wounds (9/day) (Su) All vitalists learn how to transfer wounds with but a touch. As a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity, a vitalist may touch a target and heal it for 1d6 points of damage.
The vitalist suffers the same number of points
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Mylaela
Half-elf summoner 5 (Pathfinder RPG Advanced Player's Guide 54)
NG Medium humanoid (elf, human)
Init +5; Senses low-light vision; Perception +2
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Defense
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AC 21, touch 14, flat-footed 18 (+5 armor, +1 deflection, +3 Dex, +2 shield)
hp 50 (5d8+10)
Fort +6, Ref +7, Will +8; +2 vs. enchantments
Defensive Abilities shield ally; Immune sleep
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Summoner Spell-Like Abilities (CL 5th; concentration +12)
. . 8/day—summon monster III
Summoner Spells Known (CL 5th; concentration +12)
. . 2nd (3/day)—barkskin, create pit[APG] (DC 18), haste
. . 1st (6/day)—grease, protection from evil, snowball (DC 17), stone shield[ARG]
. . 0 (at will)—acid splash, detect magic, light, mage hand, mending, read magic
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Statistics
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Str 10, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 21
Base Atk +3; CMB +3; CMD 17
Feats Augment Summoning, Spell Focus (conjuration), Superior Summoning[UM]
Traits desperate focus, reactionary
Skills Knowledge (arcana) +4, Knowledge (local) +4, Knowledge (nature) +4, Knowledge (planes) +4, Knowledge (religion) +4, Perception +2, Spellcraft +4, Use Magic Device +12; Racial Modifiers +2 Perception, sociable
Languages Common, Elven
SQ arcane training, bond senses (5 rounds/day), eidolon (named Eidolon), elf blood, elf summoner, life link
Combat Gear wand of cure light wounds; Other Gear +1 mithral shirt, cape of free will +1/+2, headband of alluring charisma +2, ring of protection +1, bedroll, belt pouch, flint and steel, masterwork backpack, mess kit, pot, soap, trail rations (5), waterskin, 93 gp, 5 cp
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Special Abilities
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Arcane Training +1 CL for spell trigger/completion items for favored class, or use them as if 1st level.
Augment Summoning Summoned creatures have +4 to Strength and Constitution.
Bond Senses (5 rounds/day) (Ex) As a standard action, you can share Eidolon's senses while on same plane.
Cape of free will +1/+2 Spend 1 power as immediate action to reroll failed Will save.
Elf Blood Half-elves count as both elves and humans for any effect related to race.
Elven Immunities - Sleep You are immune to magic sleep effects.
Life Link (Su) Damage that dismisses Eidolon can be taken by you. It weakens if not in 100 ft.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in low light, distinguishing color and detail.
Reduced Summoning Time (5 rounds) The amount of time the summoner must spend to summon his eidolon is reduced by 1 round, to a minimum of 1 round.
Shield Ally (+2 AC/Saves) (Ex) +2 AC and save when within Eidolon's reach.
Sociable If you fail a Diplomacy check to change attitude, you can retry once before 24 hrs elapse.
Spell Focus (Conjuration) Spells from one school of magic have +1 to their save DC.
Summon Monster III (8/day) (Sp) Standard action summon lasts minutes, but only 1 active at a time and can't use with eidolon.
Superior Summoning When summoning more than one creature, summon an extra one
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Eidolon
Quadruped
NG Medium outsider
Init +3; Senses darkvision 60 ft., scent; Perception +7
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Defense
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AC 19, touch 13, flat-footed 16 (+3 Dex, +6 natural)
hp 44 (+4)
Fort +5, Ref +7, Will +1
Defensive Abilities evasion
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Offense
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Speed 40 ft.
Melee bite +6 (1d6+8), 2 claws +6 (1d4+8), gore +6 (1d6+8)
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Statistics
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Str 19, Dex 16, Con 13, Int 7, Wis 10, Cha 11
Base Atk +4; CMB +6; CMD 21 (can't be tripped)
Feats Cleave (scaling), Power Attack
Skills Acrobatics +3 (+5 to balance, +7 to jump), Knowledge (planes) +5, Perception +7, Sense Motive +7, Stealth +10
Languages Common
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Special Abilities
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Cleave (Scaling) If you hit a foe, attack an adjacent target at the same attack bonus but take -2 AC.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Evasion (Ex) No damage on successful reflex save.
Pounce (Ex) You can make a full attack after a charge.
Power Attack -2/+4 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Scent (Ex) Detect opponents within 15+ feet by sense of smell.
Tail (Ex) Tail grants +2 Acrobatics checks for balance.
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Wayland
Human fighter (two-handed fighter) 5 (Pathfinder RPG Advanced Player's Guide 108)
N Medium humanoid (human)
Init +1; Senses Perception +0
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Defense
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AC 21, touch 11, flat-footed 20 (+10 armor, +1 Dex)
hp 65 (5d10+15)
Fort +7, Ref +3, Will +3; +2 trait bonus vs. divinaton effects
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft. (20 ft. in armor)
Melee +1 greatsword +11 (2d6+17/19-20) or
. . silversheen lucerne hammer +9 (1d12+13)
Ranged +1 adaptive composite longbow +6 (1d8+11/×3)
Special Attacks overhand chop, shattering strike, weapon training (heavy blades +1)
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Statistics
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Str 21, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 10
Base Atk +5; CMB +8 (+11 sunder); CMD 21 (24 vs. sunder)
Feats Deadly Aim, Improved Sunder (scaling), Point-blank Shot, Power Attack, Precise Shot (scaling), Weapon Focus (greatsword), Weapon Specialization (greatsword)
Traits carefully hidden, fencer
Skills Acrobatics -4 (-8 to jump), Climb +4, Craft (alchemy) +4, Handle Animal +4, Intimidate +4, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +8, Survival +8, Swim +4
Languages Common
Combat Gear tanglefoot bag (5); Other Gear +1 full plate, +1 adaptive composite longbow, +1 greatsword, silversheen lucerne hammer, cloak of resistance +1, bedroll, belt pouch, flint and steel, hemp rope (50 ft.), masterwork backpack, mess kit, pot, soap, torch (10), trail rations (5), waterskin, 28 gp
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Special Abilities
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Carefully Hidden You gain a +1 trait bonus to Will saves and a +2 trait bonus to saving throws versus divination effects.
Deadly Aim -2/+4 Trade a penalty to ranged attacks for a bonus to ranged damage.
Fencer +1 to hit with dagger or sword AoOs.
Improved Sunder (Scaling) You don't provoke attacks of opportunity when sundering.
Overhand Chop (Ex) Single attacks with two-handed weapons receive double STR bonus.
Point-Blank Shot +1 to attack and damage rolls with ranged weapons at up to 30 feet.
Power Attack -2/+4 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Precise Shot (Scaling) You don't get -4 to hit when shooting or throwing into melee.
Shattering Strike +1 (Ex) +1 Sunder and damage vs. objects.
Weapon Training (Blades, Heavy) +1 (Ex) +1 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Heavy Blades
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Now I only had two battles so far. One was A dire tiger one pounce later the harbinger was at -11. Yeah didn't do much that battle. The 2nd one was 4 cave fishers. That one went much better. The Summoner greased them. They fell prone. The Eidolon dispatched 2 of them. Then the harbinger was up. Swift to get into aggression stance, moved in to position used DIMENSIONAL STRIKE it hit and dropped one, and activated Massacre. Rolled a two :( The fighter crits the remainder one.
You are doing it wrong. Int is a trap below 10. Dex is always a trap. Str is better than both, and MUCH better after 15.
Nyaa is correct that your stats are far from ideal, although not exactly correct about INT being a trap before 10th level.
A much better stat spread for a Harbinger would be:
STR: 14
DEX: 12
CON: 16
INT: 18
WIS: 11
CHA: 10
Although it could be improved further, all I did was move the stats you had around.
With the above stat spred, your AB should be +7 and your damage should be +2 from strength (two handing your weapon should give a little more). You have more HP and better FORT and REF saves. Using maneuvers from your Dark Focus will further improve your attack rolls.
That aside, Harbingers aren't primarily meant to be damage dealers, they are debuffers and Battlefield Controllers. Your job isn't to kill things, its to slap so many minuses on the target that they can't do anything.
Also you shouldn't feel bad about getting pounced to death by a Dire Tiger, CR 8 beasties will do that to a 5th level character.
Has the (blade?) Mystic been released at all yet? I've been searching but can't find anything.
The Mystic is still under development.
SURVEY TIME!
We're currently reworking the Warpaths and the Alchemist Discoveries to make them fit more in line with the design goals we have for Path of War: Expanded.
At this time, the current question is whether or not Warpaths and Alchemist/Investigators should retain use of their spells under the Path of War. Other archetypes for spellcasters trade spells for initiating and other class features. Is this something you all want to see for the Alchemist, Inquisitor, Investigator and Warpriest or no?
Without spells the Warpriest would need some major rewrites since Fervor without spells is a waste of a swift action.
Without spells the Warpriest would need some major rewrites since Fervor without spells is a waste of a swift action.
So... is that "yes spells" or "no spells"?
To cross polinate some of my feedback from the other site.
If spells go then Warpriest would need a full blown archetype to get things done. I personally don't like this option since the base warpriest class features are pretty nice, except for Blessings.
Blessings are either too good (dem quickened summons yo) or useless. I think a good trade would be 2 blessings for one Warpath.
Inquisitor has much fewer issues getting spells replaced in terms of mechanics, but getting rid of spells for maneuvers will decimate an Inqusitor's campaign influencing power and make moot its custom 1-6 spell list. The most ripe class features for the picking are probably Inquisitions, Bane, and Judgements. Personally I think removing Inquisition+Bane or Inquisition+Judgement would be the best trade for a Warpath.
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I think all of those classes, except possibly the Warpriest, have strong enough chassis' that they could stand to lose spellcasting (or its equivalent) entirely in favor of initiating.
For the Warpriest, as ID noted, Fervor would need some heavy modification before removing spellcasting was a feasible or desirable option.
I think all of those classes, except possibly the Warpriest, have strong enough chassis' that they could stand to lose spellcasting (or its equivalent) entirely in favor of initiating.
For the Warpriest, as ID noted, Fervor would need some heavy modification before removing spellcasting was a feasible or desirable option.
I actually disagree for the Inquisitor. Trading spell casting for maneuvers the Inquisitor would simply be a self buffing martial that gets a few teamwork feats. Aside from the massive damage you could achieve with a Judgement+bane+boost combo I don't see much that would make such a class fun or special to use. Fluff and role wise this is pretty similar to Stalker and we already have a Stalker+Inquisitor archetype.
Inquisitor spells are generally not used in combat since their spell list is mainly made up of spells that are useful out of combat, so trading spells for maneuvers would be a trade of a mostly out of combat feature for a feature used mostly in combat.
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I think all of those classes, except possibly the Warpriest, have strong enough chassis' that they could stand to lose spellcasting (or its equivalent) entirely in favor of initiating.
For the Warpriest, as ID noted, Fervor would need some heavy modification before removing spellcasting was a feasible or desirable option.
I actually disagree for the Inquisitor. Trading spell casting for maneuvers the Inquisitor would simply be a self buffing martial that gets a few teamwork feats. Aside from the massive damage you could achieve with a Judgement+bane+boost combo I don't see much that would make such a class fun or special to use. Fluff and role wise this is pretty similar to Stalker and we already have a Stalker+Inquisitor archetype.
Inquisitor spells are generally not used in combat since their spell list is mainly made up of spells that are useful out of combat, so trading spells for maneuvers would be a trade of a mostly out of combat feature for a feature used mostly in combat.
That's fair, though I think it's less that we disagree on the strength of the chassis and more that, and I don't think you're wrong here, a WIS based 3/4 BAB self-buffing damage dealer would be virtually indistinguishable at the table from a Stalker.
I'm not entirely sure I like all of those classes being lumped together; I'd probably prefer a casting Inquisitor, a non-"casting" Investigator, a casting Warpriest who trades away more for the Warpaths than he currently does (maybe drop Sacred Weapon and the Blessings?), and a non-"casting" Alchemist whose fluff ties the initiating into his mutagens, where it's almost like a possession thing.
I think that's one of the things I've both liked and also hated a bit about some of the Path of War materials; one size fits all archetypes and organizations are neat in that they're really easy to make very fluffy and crunchy with a minimum use of page space, but then you also end up trying to shoehorn a lot of diverse concepts into a narrow mechanical framework.
Giving away 6th spellcasting for 6th initiating is a bad choice from optimization standpoint, but diminished spellcasting is probably not enough to warrant 6th initiating.
Personally I want initiating Aegis, Cryptic, Dread and Marksman, and Psywar path for every discipline.
Inquisitor
One reason I like Inquisitor is because of the way its class features separate themselves.
Spells, stern gaze-Mostly out of combat
Bane, Judgement, solo tactics, Monster Lore, Stalwart-Mostly in combat
Inquisition/Domain-Depends-Player choice for combat or non-combat
Supposing a PoW archetype for Inquisitor were to be written I'd hope that it would avoid touching the out of combat features and instead focus on the removal of in combat features.
Alchemist
I haven't played one and thus only have a superficial understanding of the class, but wouldn't the best targets for replacement be bombs and mutagens? Alternatively an Alchemist archetype specializing in Steel Serpent throwing poison bombs all over would be AMAZING.
Investigator
Haven't played one personally, but I honestly think it shouldn't get coverage. It's a very coherent class and it can already access martial maneuver feats.
Warpriest
An archetype removing spells, keeping the fervor pool, but reworking it to augment maneuvers may be cool. Alternatively throwing away both blessings for the equivalent of a current iteration warpath may be cool.
Clerics
NO.
Giving away 6th spellcasting for 6th initiating is a bad choice from optimization standpoint, but diminished spellcasting is probably not enough to warrant 6th initiating.
Personally I want initiating Aegis, Cryptic, Dread and Marksman, and Psywar path for every discipline.
Doubling up with Nyaa.
I would like to see Aegis, Dread, and Marksman represented.
Not so much Cryptic, I think he can sit this party out.
Investigator
Haven't played one personally, but I honestly think it shouldn't get coverage. It's a very coherent class and it can already access martial maneuver feats.Clerics
NO.
All classes have access to martial maneuver feats. The ability to use those feats is not an acceptable reason for said class not getting a POW archetype. Otherwise I might as well scrap the Monk, Paladin, and Barbarian archetypes :P
Clerics were never supposed to get initiating, hence why they weren't on the list of classes I was asking about. The impetus of this survey was that I'm working on redoing Warpaths (and possibly the alchemist discoveries) to remove the issues that were caused by V1 of the Warpaths.
SURVEY TIME!
We're currently reworking the Warpaths and the Alchemist Discoveries to make them fit more in line with the design goals we have for Path of War: Expanded.
At this time, the current question is whether or not Warpaths and Alchemist/Investigators should retain use of their spells under the Path of War. Other archetypes for spellcasters trade spells for initiating and other class features. Is this something you all want to see for the Alchemist, Inquisitor, Investigator and Warpriest or no?
Alchemist: I don't want it to lose its spells for initiating, but I don't think the current discoveries fit either. Definitely not comfortable with losing alchemy.
Investigator: It can lose all its alchemy. I never saw how alchemy benefited the concept.Inquisitor: I really like this class's spell list. Not in favor of losing it.
Warpriest: Too many class features have to do with spells. If you can change those up, feel free to take spellcasting away.
Investigator
Haven't played one personally, but I honestly think it shouldn't get coverage. It's a very coherent class and it can already access martial maneuver feats.Clerics
NO.
All classes have access to martial maneuver feats. The ability to use those feats is not an acceptable reason for said class not getting a POW archetype. Otherwise I might as well scrap the Monk, Paladin, and Barbarian archetypes :P
Clerics were never supposed to get initiating, hence why they weren't on the list of classes I was asking about. The impetus of this survey was that I'm working on redoing Warpaths (and possibly the alchemist discoveries) to remove the issues that were caused by V1 of the Warpaths.
It's less that the feats reduce the Investigator archetypes viability, but more of a "why Investigators?"
I see Barbarian, Monk, Paladin, Fighter, Aegis, Soulknife, Warpriest, ect and I think "yeah, maneuvers make sense." I see Investigator, Alchemist, Wizard, Druid, Summoner, Cleric, Cryptic, Psion, Wilder, ect and I think "why?"
Of course the answer to that question could be a really gameplay altering archetype like the Summoner's, but anything less than that seems half assed.
Maneuvers are fun and cool, but they don't belong on everything. Just because their are d8 hit die classes without an archetype doesn't mean they need one.
In archetypes doc Merciful Shield lists stunned both at 6 and 12 levels.
Hello, everybody! I'm pleased to introduce our newest archetype for the harbinger class, the bleak emissary.
The bleak emissary is a supremely mobile skirmisher, able to dart through combat while lashing out at those who would try to keep him from his macabre goals.
How does Encroaching Devastation work with Grasp of Darkness? As far as I can tell, you still claim only one creature per round at level 1, but recover two maneuvers. It actually gets worse at higher level because you run out of free recovery targets faster.
Is, say, a longsword or a scimitar wielded two-handed still a one-handed weapon?
Should 'Dark Focus' DC really scale?
IMO "Every opponent he moves past" is bad wording and should be changed to either "every adjacent" or "every threatened".
So Survey Time
Gonna 'fess up here, Primal Fury got put on Harbinger because of the initiative to have reserved disciplines for each class; originally, it was Scarlet Throne. But I don't actually like having Fury there. It's the odd duck out. It's the least fitting for the class's themes. And, well, frankly at 3/4 BAB you're not making the most of those rabid pounces. So I'm in the market to replace it at this point, but there's a few things.
Some Disciplines are Reserved. These are Scarlet Throne, Sleeping Goddess, Steel Serpent, Iron Tortoise, Cursed Razor (though they have that one already; that one belongs to them) and Elemental Flux. None of these are acceptable replacements.
Black Seraph isn't happening, so don't bother suggesting it.
Neither are the ranged disciplines. Harbi's got two discs that require melee, a ranged disc would pointlessly split their focus.
My current thoughtlines are split between Piercing Thunder (Ex-based damage and utility, spear use combos into Razor) and Riven Hourglass, leaning towards Thunder. Thoughts? Suggestions?
Black Seraph isn't reserved, right?
I don't think Riven Hourglass or Piercing Thunder fit the theme better than Black Seraph or Primal Fury. Of these two, I'd pick Riven Hourglass because the other three available disciplines are all supernatural too, and Harbinger currently have too few tools to break action economy. I'm fine with Primal Fury though, because between dark/edgy Cursed Razor, edgy Shattered Mirror and dark Veiled Moon it fills the missing angry spot.
IMO reserved disciplines and adjusting classes to them is a waste of time while official traditions exist, and houseruling that any initiator can pick any 4-5 disciplines as long as they fit character theme is a possibility.
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I like Riven Hourglass from the available options. Seems to fit the theme more.
Is, say, a longsword or a scimitar wielded two-handed still a one-handed weapon?
Based on FAQs like this and the bastard sword FAQ, I'd say that Paizo's intent is that most weapons count as whatever type of weapon they're being wielded as currently for feat and class effects. So in your scenario, they're treated as two-handed weapons while you're two-handing them. That's just the conclusion I'd draw from the existing rulings though.
I put my vote in for Riven Hourglass
That way Harby is all supernatural and has many ways of interacting with its prey.