Hey all!
So as the topic somewhat says, my DM is throwing us a hell of a curve ball. It's the highest level game I've been in, hitting level 20 for the first time, and the DM says he's going to bring in mythic rules and keep the game going 'until level 40 or so, so we should be prepared for that.'
I've never used mythic rules myself, and the more I read the more confused I get (rolls eyes). And from the sounds of it, playing past 20 is like a forced multi class, that I have my 20 levels of Monk and now I'm to add 20 levels or so off another class to my monk.
So as stated, we're level 20. I have a monk, and there is a fighter, a magus, and a sorcerer. No idea what the others will do with mythic and/or what classes the others will take levels in yet, but there is a lot of talk over how excited people are, how powerful they are getting, etc, and I'm still going 'huh?'
I'm a little over whelmed with this, to be honest. I mean, what combo's with monk? Best I can think of would be going into Barbarian, with it's full BAB and rage powers. The DM and other players were suggesting prestige classes and spell casters, but I have a hard time seeing those work. I'm the team's trap finder usually so rogue has been suggested too, but there are so few traps it seems a waste.
Anywho, I could just use some tips/hints/advice on how to make this work.
Thanks for your time!
Well there isn't much official levels above 20. There is however a 3pp called Legendary Levels that takes the game up to 30. It seems to work well enough, though the rules are a bit dated and the company is reworking the system including integration of Mythic.
As for mythic, it's not to hard. Basically, it's a whole bunch of extra abilities that get attached to your character vastly increasing its prowess. For a monk I would recommend being a Champion as it improves your ability to kill stuff quite a bit, but if you're the defensive sort Guardian works well too.
If you really need to go the multiclass route I would probably recommend fighter. A huge pile of feats would help flesh out your monk abilties and there are no shortage of cool monk feats out there.
Mythic abilities are effectively very-toned-down Divine Ranks. Taking any of them makes your character nigh-unkillable, especially at lv20+/
I personally go with the model of: Mortals can go up to lv30 naturally, but Classes only go up to 20, so multiclassing/prestige-classing is necessary; Immortals/Deific beings can go up to lv40 by gaining a Mythic Rank, and beings with 10 Mythic Ranks are Deities.
So, in my games now, Deities are all CL40/MR10, or CR45 in total.
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As for your character, if you're a Monk, you can multiclass into Sacred Fist; the levels of both should stack to determine your Flurry of Blows attacks, though oddly enough at levels 13+ you can easily gain more attacks per turn by using Two-Weapon Fighting and Natural Attacks than you would with Flurry (since Flurry is an immutable ability which doesn't allow more attacks than what is stated).
For example, a lv30 Brawler/Two-Weapon-Fighter Scion of Humanity Aasimar with Adopted (Orc - Tusked) and Metallic Wings would allow you to make a full-attack action of +28/+28/+25/+25/+25/+23/+23/+18/+18/+13/+8/+3...
A Monk/Sacred Fist would only gain a Flurry of +28/+28/+23/+23/+18/+18/+13/+8/+3.
The best balance of power is basically just advancing as normal, as described in the CRB for how much XP you need to gain at each level, with each class capping out at lv20 (the same way Prestige Classes have caps).
At that point, your Party would be taking on Armies, ala Dynasty Warriors or Akame ga Kill!
Here's what I've figured out, using the rules for Troops (as described in Rasputin Must Die!) and grouping monsters in order to create encounters:
4 CR 5 Soldiers = 1 Team = CR 9 encounter
4 Teams = 1 Squad = CR13 Gargantuan Troop (16 creatures)
4 Squads = 1 Company = CR 17 Colossal Troop (64 creatures)
4 Companies = 1 Battalion = CR 21 encounter (256 creatures)
4 Battalions = 1 Regiment = CR25 encounter (1024 creatures)
4 Regiments = 1 Brigade = CR29 encounter (4096 creatures)
4 Brigades = 1 Division = CR33 encounter (16,384 creatures)
4 Divisions = 1 Corps = CR37 encounter (65,536 creatures)
4 Corps = 1 Field Army = CR41 encounter (262,144 creatures)
4 Field Armies = 1 Army = CR45 encounter (1,048,576 creatures)
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In other words, a party of 4 lv20 Characters should be able to fight and possibly defeat a Regiment - although this would assuredly be a "Final Boss" fight the same way any CR25 encounter is meant to be towards an APL20 group.
And a CR29 encounter should be fairly mundane (you should be able to do 4-5 per day) encounter for a party with APL29.
Likewise, the "Final Boss" fight for a party with an APL of 40 would be fighting off an actual Army (over 1 million individual creatures).
Obviously, these are pretty ridiculous numbers, but when you consider that Deities in 3.0 typically have 40 Character Levels, and imagine a fight between 4 gods and an army of lv5 humans, 4:1mil isn't really all that inconceivable.
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The real issue with lv21+ play isn't that it's lv21+ - it's that people try to apply special rules which artificially make the characters even more bonkers than they already are.
If characters progress as normal, with classes capping at 20, and don't use things like Epic Levels, Divine Ranks, or even Mythic Tiers, the escalation is surprisingly a non-issue (you do, admittedly, still do ridiculous things, but are still far less broken that using any "super" rules).
Hey! Sorry for the looong delay in responding. PC issues. What can you do?
For specifics, it's embarrassing to say as there is much cheese in this game. The DM is basically telling us to be as insane as possible, use every trick in the book, and see what we can create. And there have plenty of hints that one of the final battles (if not the final battle) will be these high powered characters taking on each other. So as insane as my character is, the others (Sorcerer/Oracle, Magus/Samurai, and the odd Cavalier/anti-paladin and not a fighter as I mistakenly said before) are just as crazy and that's what I have to go up against.
That said, I'm a level 18 monk of four winds, using slow time to attack three times a round with the entire vital strike chain (even mythic now. DM allowed me to use a wish to get Great VS). I use Snake style and it's feats so when an opponent misses me, I get an attack of opportunity. I carry a wayfinder with a lavender and green ioun stone to absorb 8th level or lower spells, not to mention the spell resistance. My handy Jingasa of the fortunate solider blocks critical hits (the magus/samurai's specialty).
There's no doubt this monk is powerful, and I know this. But there are three just as powerful characters who will be seeking my head. I need to be prepared for it, you know? I will take my 20 levels of monk, and then will need another 20 levels of some other class (or classes).
I'm not sure if it's smarter to say, take 20 levels of fighter for the added BAB and weapon training, or to dabble in various paths various boosts, like 2 levels of Paladin to add CHA to all my saves, 2 levels of inquisitor to add WIS to my initiative, and the like. Would it be smarter to add spell casting abilities to the fold? I'm not sure.
I keep going over this, and I keep finding flaws in every choice. This decision will likely be a major deciding factor in whether I survive the campaign, so you know, no pressure or anything. When it comes time for the stand off, they're going to be gunning for me as I'm the most powerful character... and everyone knows it. The question now is, how do I stay the strongest?
tl;dr have 20 levels of monk, need to multi-class into something else for gameplay up to level 40. Ideas?
inquisitor might work. There's pretty good stat synergy, and having access to a spell list and some of the swift action buffing seems like it would work out. I would probably take the twenty levels of inquisitor first though, just because of the benefits of having full casting for utility.
Is this PF only material or are 3PP being allowed?
If 3PP are allowed, the Warden from Dreamscarred Press Path of War really enhances the Monk, and keeps a great feel.
Going the opposite direction - going for 20 levels of sorcerer and defining it as "Ch'i magic" keeps the feel of a monk and allows some great effects - and as a high level monk, the no armor for Arcane spells is helpful.
In mythic Precision is a great option for a melee that uses a lot of attacks. Champion Path - some other stuff there for Monk types.
It's pathfinder only. There's always SOMETHING I forget to mention when making a topic. Also, the game is already in session (we started at level 10, now 18) so the monk levels are already there.
Figured I couldn't avoid those forever...
STR: 48
DEX: 34
CON : -
INT: 20
WIS: 29
CHA: 29
No con as I may be 'slightly' undead.... minor case of vampirism is all...
Oy. I'm embarrassed to own such cheese in public. And my stats are not even the craziest on this team. I had hoped to avoid too much detail as I feel like with those stats I have to come off like the spoiled brat who has everything and still asking for more. Moving on...
With my WIS and CHA, I could do well with a lot of casting. Yet with my fist being the greatest weapon I could hope to own, I'm not sure what spells I'd be hoping to learn. I mean, I'm pretty sure there's not an attack spell out there that does more damage than my fist. With my Qinngong abilities I can use true strike, barkskin, shadow walk, and i'll be getting empty body for etheralness next level.
At the risk of sounding full of myself, I think my biggest problem is I'm trying to fix my weaknesses, and I'm having trouble seeing any. I've used the most ridiculous builds I can come up with to make a monster of a character, and feel sorry for the rules of the game as it is. Being asked to take it further...well, I'm stumped.
Right now, I'm thinking I might take a two level dip into Anti-Paladin to add my CHA to my saves, then take levels in fighter for weapon training and to qualify for fighter feats. It just doesn't feel right to me, like I'm missing a superior option right in front of me.
Oy, ranting. Sorry. I'm all confused and ranting, so I'll just stop myself here. I appreciate everyone's advice and indulging me in this so far.
You want absurdity to go with that? Go Bloodrager. Primalist Aberrant Bloodrager. Take ALL the Rage Powers.
are you just a vampire or a half fiend vampire? just kidding!
I suggest not using epic or legendary anything. You can do an extraordinary amount of damage with just metamagic feats and thier equivalents. There are still spell slots above 9, just no spells that mortals can cast.
And look, here is the local orc. . . . and not even an Outsider!
Abyssal Gigas (+14HD, Giant x2, Augment Summoning) CR 24 XP 1.23M
CE Colossal humanoid (chaotic, evil, extraplanar, giant)
Init +5; Senses blindsight 100 ft.; Perception +27
DEFENSE
AC 45, touch 8, flat 34 (+14 armor +1 Dex, +28 nat -8 size)
HD: 35d8+743: 1040 hp
Fort +26, Ref +22, Will +17;
wis 4+2+11 = +17 dex 1+2+19 = +22 con 13+2+11 = +26
Defensive Abilities: rock catching; DR 5/-, 10/lawful; Resist Eve-rything 20; SR
You know, I had already forgotten about the hybrid classes. Bloodrager and warpriest could be interesting options. I'll need to read up on them more.
As for mythic, I think I'm getting used to it. Our game last saturday was cancelled last minute (DM's PC had a critical error) so I haven't tried it out yet, but I'm thinking of taking the Trickster path. With it's sudden strike ability (the one that lets me catch a foe flat footed) and ignore DR combined with my back up Brilliant energy brass knuckles, I can ignore most enemies defenses. I grabbed some feats with my low level powers, grabbing mythic vital strike, unarmed strike, and titan strike to improve my damage to levels I never dreamed (I'm fairly certain 64d8 +250 is a 'little' Over powered). Eventually grab Mirror Dodge and some fickle attacks as with that many dice it adds up fast. Path dabbling will be useful to, of course. With both the kensai and the anti-paladin/cavalier going champion, I think it will throw them off their game.
And heck, since I'm admitting these numbers I'll just say my AC is 61, hp is 332, and my saves are 33/38/33. My hit, damage, AC and saves are the best (well, the sorcerer might have close/higher saves) where my HP is low for this game. The two fighters can't even hit me without a critical at this point, but they're likely to get more BAB and fix that, where boosting my AC to match will be tricky. The sorcerer/oracle is the one that worries me the most, as he's a clever power gamer. Thankfully he's my closest ally of the three (the campaign started out as me playing his bodyguard for the last two years) but if it becomes a blood bath I feel he's the one to watch.
And one of these days I will learn to make a post without rambling for an hour. Oy. Sorry if I'm long winded.
Sacred fist was ruled not to stack, and the legendary item was nixed too.
After thinking it over for WAY too long, I think I know how to make it work. I've been so focused on improving the actual numbers, I was blind to everything else. By taking Crane wing, I can stop one fighter cold, and mythic mirror dodge stops another. For the third, I need to make sure I go first to take him out before he gets a turn.
To do so, I'm going to do some dabbling, try to get bonus' from a few classes. Take 2 levels in Inquisator for it's WIS to initiative bonus, and take the paladin archtype that gives me CHA to my initiative as well. Take mythic improved initiative as well, and one use of mythic power to have an automatic 20. If all goes well, I should be able to take out the caster in round one, and shut the other two down with mirror dodge and crane wing.
I'm going to look into some other 'add this stat to X as well" bonus', see if I can find some other nifty tricks. If not, the next thing I'd need is bonus' to hit, and I think plain fighter will give the best boost there with full BAB, weapon training, and fighter feats (greater weapon focus comes to mind). Potentially debating a level one dip into Ninja/rogue to get the CHA based KI boost.
I think the last thing I need to figure out is a replacement for my monk robe (stops being useful at level 20). I'd like to try to find a spell that increases my fist's effective size category once more without actually increasing size, too; I have lead blades, animal aspect: gorilla, strong jaw, and mythic titan strike so far. If I can find one more I'd hit the max on the charts, which will be sweet.
Oy, ranting again lol. Anywho, it's not a concrete plan, but it's a start, I think. I feel better knowing I'm not just stalling until I get killed now lol.