Ifrit, Oread, Slyph, or Undine sub-species.


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

Grand Lodge

Is there a source that has covered the possible sub-species similar to Aasimar and Tiefling? If not, who do I need to water board to get this going?


Not that I know of and you probably need to water board JJ xD

Grand Lodge

You seemed too willing to point me at JJ... You wouldn't lead me astray just for kicks would you?

And back on note... That's a shame, I think those sub-species and Law/Chaos oriented Native Outsiders would be awesome (and would sate my need for symetry).


There was the Blood of the Elements book that came out some time ago, though I don't believe it listed different variations of the elemental blooded races (there's no distinction between an Ifrit born of an Efreeti or an Azir, for example).


What, exactly, do you mean by "sub-species"? Are you talking about plane-touched races for all the major planes? Or are you talking about the rules for non-human Aasimar/Tieflings?

If it's about planetouched, you also have Fetchlings for the Shadow plane and you already listed the elemental plane races in the title. Aasimar cover the three Good planes (LG, NG, CG) while Tieflings cover the three Evil planes (LE, NE, CE). Remaining are the following:

Ethereal Plane
Astral Plane
Utopia (LN)
Limbo (CN)
Purgatory (TN)
Positive Energy
Negative Energy


I think that the ifrit, oread, undine, and sylph are practically supspecies of a larger race category in and of themselves. A Race That Shalt Not Be Named by Paizo, if you will. They are each variations of the same racial archetype, and they each follow the same mechanical format. You could pitch them all as heritages of a larger racial type with little more than some reformatting.

Not to say there aren't plenty of opportunities to expand the options of these genasi of course.

...Well, shoot.

Grand Lodge

@Kazaan the Blood of the Angels/Fiends sub-species. I was specifically thinking the LN and CN planes.

@Marco I forgot about the Genasi or Gensai or whatever. I'd accept that the races that I mentioned could be those sub-species.


Wyrmholez wrote:

You seemed too willing to point me at JJ... You wouldn't lead me astray just for kicks would you?

And back on note... That's a shame, I think those sub-species and Law/Chaos oriented Native Outsiders would be awesome (and would sate my need for symetry).

I would never suggest that, even if I think his comments regarding stacking abilities that allow double dipping into attributes is causing a lot of issues xD


Wyrmholez wrote:

@Kazaan the Blood of the Angels/Fiends sub-species. I was specifically thinking the LN and CN planes.

@Marco I forgot about the Genasi or Gensai or whatever. I'd accept that the races that I mentioned could be those sub-species.

Ooh, you're talking about the Variant Heritages? Peri-blooded, Angel-blooded, Demon-blooded, all that? Aasimar are always from Good-aligned planes so there would never be LN or CN Aasimar. Same goes for Tieflings. The elemental plane-touched outsiders are from the lower planes of the elements; alignment planes are the upper planes. Whereas with the Aasimar and Tieflings, they each represent a "swath" of planes, similar in one alignment axis but varied along the other, planetouched of the lower planes or the transient planes wouldn't exhibit such variety and, thus, this principal is sort of mis-placed for them.


Kazaan wrote:
Wyrmholez wrote:

@Kazaan the Blood of the Angels/Fiends sub-species. I was specifically thinking the LN and CN planes.

@Marco I forgot about the Genasi or Gensai or whatever. I'd accept that the races that I mentioned could be those sub-species.

Ooh, you're talking about the Variant Heritages? Peri-blooded, Angel-blooded, Demon-blooded, all that? Aasimar are always from Good-aligned planes so there would never be LN or CN Aasimar. Same goes for Tieflings. The elemental plane-touched outsiders are from the lower planes of the elements; alignment planes are the upper planes. Whereas with the Aasimar and Tieflings, they each represent a "swath" of planes, similar in one alignment axis but varied along the other, planetouched of the lower planes or the transient planes wouldn't exhibit such variety and, thus, this principal is sort of mis-placed for them.

Not exactly true....

Aasimars and Tieflings can be of any alignment. Their ANCESTORS WAAAAY back when may have been celestial/infernal/abyssal/FILL IN THE BLANK HERE but they in and of themselves are nothing more than weird quirks that occasionally pop up in generations.

Grand Lodge

After hearing the arguments I think that the elemental Plane-touched are good as they are.

Now I want an Inevitable and Protean Native Outsider race... Time to fire up the homebrew engines!


Oh god lol...

Now THAT would be funny to see


PIXIE DUST wrote:
Kazaan wrote:
Wyrmholez wrote:

@Kazaan the Blood of the Angels/Fiends sub-species. I was specifically thinking the LN and CN planes.

@Marco I forgot about the Genasi or Gensai or whatever. I'd accept that the races that I mentioned could be those sub-species.

Ooh, you're talking about the Variant Heritages? Peri-blooded, Angel-blooded, Demon-blooded, all that? Aasimar are always from Good-aligned planes so there would never be LN or CN Aasimar. Same goes for Tieflings. The elemental plane-touched outsiders are from the lower planes of the elements; alignment planes are the upper planes. Whereas with the Aasimar and Tieflings, they each represent a "swath" of planes, similar in one alignment axis but varied along the other, planetouched of the lower planes or the transient planes wouldn't exhibit such variety and, thus, this principal is sort of mis-placed for them.

Not exactly true....

Aasimars and Tieflings can be of any alignment. Their ANCESTORS WAAAAY back when may have been celestial/infernal/abyssal/FILL IN THE BLANK HERE but they in and of themselves are nothing more than weird quirks that occasionally pop up in generations.

I wasn't referring to the personal alignment of the particular aasimar/tiefling but referring to variant heritage from a LN or CN plane outsider. The vanilla Aasimar, for instance, is just descended from a Celestial; any unspecified outsider from one of the Good planes. They're receiving more the "Good" energy than anything else. However, you have variant heritage of particular outsiders such as Angel, Archon, Azata, etc. where you get a healthy dose of the unique identity of those specific kinds of Good outsiders rather than just a blanket "celestial goodness". But neither Tiefling nor Aasimar derive their line of descent from a LN, TN, or CN outsider. I used LN or CN Aasimar as a shorthand for "LN-heritage or CN-heritage Aasimar".


I'm actually rather surprised that there aren't any floating around from previous editions...but they certainly don't show up on a google search.

Well, there was a homebrew "anarch" race, but it's dreadfully underpowered.


Took a little hunting, but I found the Law/Chaos guys. They are Chaonds and Zenythri, originally posted in 3rd edition's Monster Manual II, I think.


cool.

Zenythri
Chaond

Amusingly, their skill bonuses are exactly the same, since tumble and balance are both part of Acrobatics.


There are no Azer-blooded, Nereid-blooded, or anything of the sort for the elemental planetouched. They also don't have Law or Chaos version of planetouched (like aasimar=good and tiefling=evil).

As for 3rd edition, there's the Zenythri and Chaonds from MM2, and there are also the Cansin and Axani from one of the older Dragon Magazines (also had para-elemental touched, such as ooze, ice, magma, etc), which I liked better than those in the MM2 (and the art looked better, as well).

Dragon #297 July 2002 (so original 3rd edition), page 62 in the article Children of the Cosmos. Axani (law); Cansin (chaos); Dust, Ice, Magma, Ooze, Smoke, and Steam Para-Genasi. It's the issue that coincides with the release of the Epic Level Handbook.

Of course, those aren't exactly what the OP was wanting. But law and chaos planetouched were mentioned earlier.

Shadow Lodge

Adjule wrote:

As for 3rd edition, there's the Zenythri and Chaonds from MM2, and there are also the Cansin and Axani from one of the older Dragon Magazines (also had para-elemental touched, such as ooze, ice, magma, etc), which I liked better than those in the MM2 (and the art looked better, as well).

Dragon #297 July 2002 (so original 3rd edition), page 62 in the article Children of the Cosmos. Axani (law); Cansin (chaos); Dust, Ice, Magma, Ooze, Smoke, and Steam Para-Genasi. It's the issue that coincides with the release of the Epic Level Handbook.

Axani and Cansin stats are listed here. Picture of the two (surrounded by paragenasi) here.

I don't think we need full variant heritages for the planetouched, though a few more heritage-based alternate traits like Efreet Magic would be nice - sylphs and oreads don't have any.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Unlike aasimars and tieflings, these four eleemental races don't have a wide range of various heritages to build off of. There's no plan to expand upon them in this manner, since it doesn't make sense, flavor or canon-wise, to do so.

I AM interested to know, however, what Pixie Dust's actually talking about double dipping causing issues though...


If memory serves right, Spikelings were descendents from the LN machine plane as well.


Oh, for instance the issues that come up with things like Warpriest Sacred Fist 1/Monk 1. Both let you add wis to AC. One is a Su ability, one is an Ex ability. Both are untyped. And, unlike everything else in the archetype, the Sacred Fist never says anything about interaction with monk (most of the other monk abilities in teh archetype specifically call out working like the monk's abilities) A lot of people have been arguing back and forth in the advice board because no one is sure as to how things that let you add an attribute twice from two different sources. xD

THis is thread right here

It seems many people are using you as a source for rulings in both directions xD

Paizo Employee Creative Director

2 people marked this as a favorite.
PIXIE DUST wrote:

Oh, for instance the issues that come up with things like Warpriest Sacred Fist 1/Monk 1. Both let you add wis to AC. One is a Su ability, one is an Ex ability. Both are untyped. And, unlike everything else in the archetype, the Sacred Fist never says anything about interaction with monk (most of the other monk abilities in teh archetype specifically call out working like the monk's abilities) A lot of people have been arguing back and forth in the advice board because no one is sure as to how things that let you add an attribute twice from two different sources. xD

THis is thread right here

It seems many people are using you as a source for rulings in both directions xD

Ah... interesting. Had a feeling it was something like this.

Those people should instead use their GMs as sources of rulings, frankly. And if there are confusing parts of the Warpriest or any other element in Advanced Class Guide... those questions need to be posted to the rules forum so the design team can see them when they get tagged with a FAQ.

It's amusing/annoying to me if folks are citing me as a source for rulings, because I wasn't actually directly involved in that book's creation. My general attitude for problems like these is to encourage the GM to make a ruling as best fits his/her gameplay style and to not worry too much about whether that ruling is "right" or not. It's right if it makes your game more fun.

The endless arguments over how to pedantically interpret rules is too exhausting at times. I'd rather play the game than game the play.


Haha, funny thing is that a lot of people have actually pointed that out xD


James Jacobs wrote:


Those people should instead use their GMs as sources of rulings, frankly. And if there are confusing parts of the Warpriest or any other element in Advanced Class Guide... those questions need to be posted to the rules forum so the design team can see them when they get tagged with a FAQ.

To be fair...

To be fair...

paizo.com/threads/rzs2qe32?What-is-the-meaning-of-source-in-regards-to

We're working on it.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / General Discussion / Ifrit, Oread, Slyph, or Undine sub-species. All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.
Recent threads in General Discussion