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I've recently got into my mind a Paladin that actually investigates things to make sure he's smiting the right evil. One that has more tools to serve law and good. Basically, make a Paladin that avoids the Lawful Ignorant and Ignorant Good types of characters. I make the distinction between ignorance and stupid because some of the so called "Lawful Stupid" characters are more the result of having Intelligence as a dump stat and not investing in Knowledge skills. People tend to roleplay that as just dumb, when it's more ignorance. And as an old adage goes, "Ignorance can be treated. Stupid is incurable."
To that end, I am going to attempt a build mix of Paladin and the Sleuth archetype for the Investigator. It's not intended to be the strongest or swiftest of characters, just maybe more clever. The question I have for myself is simple: do I wield a single weapon or have a shield in one hand?
For the purposes of simplicity, I am going to build it for a 17th level game I will be participating in the future. As such, I figure the best mix is 4 levels of Sleuth Investigator and 13 levels of Paladin. For the sake of progression, I'll say that the Sleuth levels were between levels 3-7 just so I could take a feat to give myself the Quick Study Investigator Talent right as I get the Studied Strike/Combat abilities. I've also decided upon making this a human, because it can smooth out the feat progression to allow for that extra investigator talent.
Current stat allocation before leveling this all the way to 17 is as follows.
Strength 17 (with racial adjustment)
Dex 12
Con 14
Int 13
Wis 7
Cha 15
I'll come up with my overall feat plan later, but for now I'd like to know what people think of the idea.
Why not play an inquisitor? It sounds to me like it fits the concept of your character perfectly, and will be easier to build than a Paladin/Investigator multiclass.
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I played an Inquisitor in PFS up to 11 level. My idea behind the character was that he was a servant of Iomedae. a sherif a marshal....he was someone who investigated and tracked down malefactors, were wolves, demons, devils etc....but his main tools were investigative tools.
Unfortunately, PFS left a little less time to role play over all, and I think this character would have been an excellent character for a home game.
I hope this helps.
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First off, I'm amazed at this response. This makes two for two attempts at a concept that the immediate response is "play this instead." Very little attempt if any was given to considering what it was. I'll admit I forgot to list the detail that this Paladin would be a follower of Abadar, but I somehow think that wouldn't have mattered. At least this time, I asked "what do you think" first instead of "how should I consider x thing for y build."
What I'm looking for is in no way, shape, or form an Inquisitor. Let's remove that thought right there. I actually want to play a Paladin, but I want to be able to not suck at common knowledge things. Maybe have that breakthrough to help in those times where the others who should be knowledgeable turn out not to be.
Let me put it like this. How many Paladins actually invest in Knowledge Local or perhaps the Planes just to understand the laws governing them? None, right? What my character is meant to be is a genuinely bookish Paladin. A man who studied more than just holy texts and a who's who catalog of noble houses and their decor. A man for whom his intelligence is another weapon in the service of his deity and the people, alongside his arms and his silvered tongue. Does that sound like an Inquisitor? A consummate hunter of heretics and horrors? No. To me, it sounds like a Paladin trying to hold himself to the standard of a learned judge.
On the one question about the wisdom dump: mechanically it's a sacrifice for that intelligence and because I'd otherwise be short a few points for it mechanically. Better a little extra than a little short. Flavor wise, I can explain it as a bit of a drawback from those studies. Quite a few men have worsened their vision or narrowed their focus in the pursuit of knowledge. They have blinded themselves to some of the goings on in the world, either figuratively or literally. So a lack of wisdom is to be expected.
The problem, Kalvit, is that you're going to want to invest heavily in Intelligence and Wisdom to role-play this concept properly. That's going to short you on Strength, Dexterity and Constitution, and you'll probably take a hit in Charisma as well. This does not play to a paladin's mechanical strengths.
Intelligence 13 is not going to cut it for you. It's going to give you +1 skill point (for a total of 3 per level, 4 if you only take the skill point instead of the hit point or racial bonus per level), and that's not a lot of skill points to invest in a "learned" character. Your feat choices are likely to be geared toward making your character more of an intellectual, and so his or her abilities as a paladin are going to be handicapped. Sure, you can invest 4 trait bonuses into Intelligence to get 2 more per level. At that point, you've graduated to what the Inquisitor starts with (sans Intelligence bonuses), skill wise.
Other character classes mechanically lend themselves better to this character concept. If you wish to serve your deity with your mind, the paladin is not the class for you. They are the noble military arm of their deities. Inquisitors, for example, are much more than consummate hunters of heretics and horrors; they ferret out secrets and hidden knowledge, which sounds suspiciously similar to what you're looking for.
That's why you're getting the advice that you're getting. What you're proposing would generally be considered "ill-advised". It is going to feel like your character is constantly handicapped, both in skills and in combat prowess. You're translating the advice of people who are encouraging you to consider something else as a lack of considering what you're asking. Just because you don't see the thought processes behind their responses doesn't mean that there is a lack of those thought processes.
Please do not dismiss the advice you're being given. It's sound.
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"I suggest a Druid with a skunk animal companion and the weather domain!"
On a serious note, if the guy wants a Paladin then give him some useful advise instead of "you're better off playing something else."
My suggestions: play a Dwarf, Elf, or Gnome and spend a feat on 'Breadth of Experience'. Use your traits to make non-class knowledge skills into class skills. Elf, you'll take a hit to con, but you'll get +2 int. With 13int you'll start with a 15, add a +1 at 4th or 8th level for a total of 5 skill points per level. You can grab a headband that's +2int, +2cha to pickup another skill point per level.
As others have mentioned it's not optimal but it's an option. I play an Elf Sacred Servant Paladin of Tanagaar currently with a Roc AC. (Paladin lvl 7, Roc lvl 5). The lower Con isn't ideal but the Elves Favored Class Bonus is nice. Since I only have a 12con and using FCB's for the +1/2 to heal/dmg of Lay on Hands my HP at 7th level is only 53, but I chose to go the tank route and I'm sitting on 28AC. In short, there's ways to make the non-optimal still work.
Since the op wants to play a paladin, and not an inquisitor or rogue or druid or wizard ("because they are the bestestsetstestest!")I will throw in my 5 cents.
Go all the way man! pump all your stats into int, cha, wis - in roughly that order. if you want to be the smart paladin then go against all types and revel in it!
either concider going the ranged route, or pump your charisma so high that when your wimpy sword&boarder-gets his smite on he changes from bruce banner to the holy hulk!
Huh, that actually sound a bit fun to play ...
I always say Keep It Simple Stupid, so the question is: are you taking those levels in investigator because it fits the character? or because it's "mechanincaly" (did I misspell that one?) sound?
because a smart paladin that knows much more then his sterotypical counterparts is just a paladin with high int who spends some of his feats on skill-fests. -And that is also a viable "build"!
I know nothing about the investigator so no advice there.
A paladin with physical "dump stats" is going to need a shield and any help he can get.
-Maybe concider the lore warden or tactician archetypes for the fighter as a dip? they have high bab and more skills than a pally ... and unless I'm reading this wrong the lore warden loses his profinciency with shields ... but NOT with tower shields? is that an unintended oversight?
EDIT: did a quick check and a character with
str 10
dex 10
con 10
int 16
wis 14
cha 14
(15 pt buy)
-can still end up with a ac of 23 with a full plate and towers shield, and get 6 ranks in skill per level. not awesome, but this is the extreme version with badbadbad physical stats and low points.
of course, no character starts with full plate at first level but the point still stands: he won't be useless, he'll be the highly educated tank.
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If he's not doing a 2 or 3 level dip then he should go all the way. Dipping into another class will only hurt his Divine Bond scaling, Lay on Hands, and Smite uses per day and +hit/+dmg progression.
If he's looking for a smart Paladin I'd suggest Elf with the following stats:
Str10, Con12, Dex16, Int15, Wis12, Cha14 (20pt buy)
+1 to Dex at 4th level and +1 to Int at 8th level. (lvl 12 +1dex, lvl 16 +1 Dex)
Lvl 1 Feat: Point Blank Shot
Free Feat at Lvl 1: Precise Shot
Lvl 3 Feat: Breadth of Experience of Rapid Shot
Lvl 5 Feat: Whichever one you didn't take at lvl 3
Lvl 7 Feat: ManyShot
Lvl 9 Feat: Deadly Aim
Lvl 11 Feat: Improved Precise Shot
Lvl 13 Feat: free
Lvl 15 Feat: free
Lvl 17 Feat: free
Could grab the Elf only feat Stabbing Shot if that interests you.
Gear:
Greater Bracers of Archery
+3 Longbow
+3 Mithral *insert armor name here*
Efficient Quiver
+4 Charisma headband
+4 Dex Belt
Wand of Keen Edge for arrows
+2 Buckler
Versus non evil you're better off reasoning with them but against Evil opponents you're Smite Evil and Deadly Aim will pump out the real damage. Your Divine Bond will also give you extra damage depending on what qualities you add to your bow. You should be pumping out 6? arrows during a Full Attack and you'll be more safe in the back even with your lower HP. Since your Dex focused all your saves will be high. The 10str isn't great by any means but I feel going str based is just going to kill all your other stats. May want to pickup Weapon Finesse and buy an agile weapon, I'd suggest an Elven Curved Blade but you have no str bonus, better off using a light weapon and having the buckler for extra AC.
Divine Hunter isn't the Investigator archetype, but it's a Paladin and it synergizes with getting feats online faster for archery to still be useful in combat while being good at Knowledge skills and etc.
Clever people gather data, plan ahead, strike fast and early, and win the war from a distance. This character does it via Knowledge, Social Skills, and if it comes down to it Arrows. Let the more brutish/unlearned folk run head first recklessly into combat while you do the real work.
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Okay, maybe I should show you my paladin build, because it's a decent example of this in practice. Then I'll talk a bit about how well it worked in PFS.
Str 16 -> 18 (racial)
Dex 13 -> 14 (at level 4)
Con 12
Int 12
Wis 8
Cha 14
Traits: World Traveler (Human; gives me K:Local as a class skill), Seeker (Social, gives me Perception as a class skill)
First adventure: The Lost Heir. This was a good fit adventure-wise. Next one: Library of the Lion. I'd put a rank in K:History, but as a non-class-skill those DCs were pretty hard.
Up to and including level 6, I've put Favored Class into skills. This has hurt me a lot in the HP department. As a paladin, I'm fairly fragile, both in HP and Saves (due to not having Cha sky-high). However, in several adventures I've carried the party due to having a rank in class skills Religion and Planes, and by now a pretty good Diplomacy and Perception. Being human, I get 4-5 skill points per level.
The wisdom dump did hurt me a bit, though it helps that Sense Motive and Perception are (due to trait) both class skills. Even so, Perception is lower than I'd like it.
The good news is that offensively, I'm just peachy. As a paladin, a two-handed weapon, power attack and high strength is really all you need to be effective as a striker in PFS.
What's also nice is that because I'm a paladin, I have a certain amount of moral authority. If a paladin goes to the authorities to denounce a criminal, he gets taken a bit more seriously than other classes with less strict codes of behaviour, even inquisitors. After all, everyone knows paladins need to play it straight and narrow. That's also an advantage, it gives you credibility.
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Without a sky-high AC, going Melee with 12con is dangerous. My last PFS scenario I got sandwiched in the middle by 3 Babaus that teleported around my party. Due to my aura just screaming goodness, I had a good amount of focus directed towards me. Luckily my 27AC helped me avoid a LOT of their attacks, which were 3 per Babau and 2 of them were focused on me.
This was a lvl 3-7 scenario, playing up due to the party's levels. I was lvl 6 (level up after that scenario). At that point I had 46hp, 27AC, and 6 uses of 4d6+3 Lay on Hands (+1 LoH from Sacred Servant Divine Bond, +1d6 from Greater Mercy, +3 from 6 levels of FCB). That was about it from keeping my character from having a date with Pharasma.
Demons/Devils WILL attempt to tear you apart as they know you're a high threat to them with your Smite abilities and such. If you want to go melee with 12con and using your levels for extra skill points by my guest. But I doubt you'll get too far in the mid-higher levels of PFS. One of the few things that keeps me at ease with being in the front lines with my high AC is also having 2 Heroic Defiances prepped that'll go off if I drop below 0hp, for 5d6+3hp.
I still believe my suggestion is most optimal as he's wanting to pump stats towards being more social/knowledgeable and wanting a way to make use of more skill points "Breadth of Knowledge" and the archery route will hopefully help keep him out of getting full attacked.
EDIT: Btw, that scenario we had a Barbarian, a Fighter, Paladin (myself), and a Gunslinger. The Fighter in our party died, rest of us survived but it was an upward battle through most of the scenario. Would have been nice if we had a Cleric or a Wizard/Sorcerer or such but when you play PFS, you have to make due with what you get.
I would take sense motive, diplomacy, as skills for sure, and maybe knowledge local. Those are good for investigating.
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@Kysune: yeah, I'm definitely feeling my squishiness. I think I played the same scenario that you did, but I wasn't the only paladin there and we put the babaus on the defensive very quickly. A good offence can indeed be a very good defence. And the other people I play with tend to play the same way; we got through the new season scenarios so far by playing 2-3 2H frontline heavy hitters and taking down monsters fast and furiously.
Where I to make a new paladin I'd build him differently though. This was my first experience playing a paladin and at higher PF levels, and I've been learning what does and doesn't work. Although it does seem that if you're not going to push AC sky-high, you might as well not bother at all. When we played Silver Mount at high tier (6-7) we had a bloodrager (AC 12, 10-20ft reach with claws/polearm), ranger (AC 19) and my paladin (AC 23), and I think the difference in damage taken was negligible. I think the bloodrager's reach mattered more than any armor.
I've said in the original post that I'm building this for a level 17 adventure in a couple months or so. I was told it was going to be one module, and I could go nuts on this. So I get a chance to make a dream build, as well as test the possibility of its viability.
Let me expand upon the abilities the build I'm going for would grant.
4 levels of Sleuth Investigator:
* Pool of luck points that can grant a number of useful abilities. Need to go to 4th level to gain all of them, including a bonus to Initiative, an active Evasion ability, limited increases to mobility/defense, and some rerolls. Pool is derived entirely from my character's Charisma score, which makes it work nicely with the Paladin. Can be increased through Extra Grit and other things that you might use on Swashbucklers/Gunslingers.
* Greatly expanded skill set. I go from a skill list with only a few skills with utility to a list that makes my character proficient in nearly anything he wanted to do. Seriously, I could disable traps as a Paladin if I wanted to.
* Inspiration and the Expanded Inspiration talent. Increases several skill checks beyond what they naturally can get without the necessity of feats, and can use this to mitigate the lower wisdom. 4 levels guaranteed 2 + Intelligence modifier uses of Inspiration for things that don't get the auto availability clause.
* Increased Will and Reflex saves. 4 levels give me +3 on both saves, actually netting me a higher Will save than 17 straight levels in Paladin.
* Studied Combat/Strike. More a consequence to the Sleuth archetype, but I'd be able to literally fight smarter and harder. Think of it as an experienced Paladin figuring out where to hit to guarantee a minion goes down without necessarily resorting to Smite Evil. Only drawback is it only applies to melee attacks. No ranged option here.
13 levels of Paladin:
* Lay on Hands and Mercies. I'd have up to 6 + Charisma modifier uses of Lay on Hands, each doing 6d6 worth of healing and status removal. Can also use this for channeling if the party needs it. Considering end Charisma should be between a +3 to +6, that means I'll have between 9-12 uses daily. Only a couple uses and a couple d6s short of what the 17th level paladin has, and one fewer mercy to apply to the Lay on Hands.
* Divine Grace/Divine Health. Immunity to diseases and a bonus to all saves equal to my charisma modifier. Given previous statement about Lay on Hands usages, that indicates an extra 3-6 on all saves.
* Smite Evil. I do end up with one less Smite than the 17th level Paladin, but everything else remains unchanged. Useful at range and melee.
* Spells. I'd have access to the same levels of spellcasting as the 17th level paladin, though admittedly I'd have to rely on magic items to give me the bonus spell so I could cast the 4th level spell. I'd lose a total of 4 spell slots per day compared to the 17th level paladin, but magic items can compensate to a degree.
* Auras. Immuntity to various mind affecting abilities is good, as is the bonus to allies against the same. I do lose the Auras of Faith and Righteousness. Does mean I lose DR and the ability to passively treat all weapons as good for the purpose of bypassing DR.
* Divine Bond (weapon). Compared to the 17th level paladin, I do lose one use per day as well as having 2 less on the enhancement the ability gives. At 17th level though, that's not quite as important if you invested in certain weapon enhancements already. What I'd have is about enough for what enhancements I may need, though.
* Fort and Will saves. As stated in the Investigator segment, the Will save would be 2 points higher as a cross build. The Fort Save would be down by one compared to the straight 17, due to the four level dip.
And with a human as my base assumption, this does make a rare build that can actually use the Fast Learner feat. So skills and health could go up simultaneously during each paladin level if I choose to use that feat.
I've said in the original post that I'm building this for a level 17 adventure in a couple months or so. I was told it was going to be one module, and I could go nuts on this. So I get a chance to make a dream build, as well as test the possibility of its viability.
Let me expand upon the abilities the build I'm going for would grant.
4 levels of Sleuth Investigator:
* Pool of luck points that can grant a number of useful abilities. Need to go to 4th level to gain all of them, including a bonus to Initiative, an active Evasion ability, limited increases to mobility/defense, and some rerolls. Pool is derived entirely from my character's Charisma score, which makes it work nicely with the Paladin. Can be increased through Extra Grit and other things that you might use on Swashbucklers/Gunslingers.
* Greatly expanded skill set. I go from a skill list with only a few skills with utility to a list that makes my character proficient in nearly anything he wanted to do. Seriously, I could disable traps as a Paladin if I wanted to.
* Inspiration and the Expanded Inspiration talent. Increases several skill checks beyond what they naturally can get without the necessity of feats, and can use this to mitigate the lower wisdom. 4 levels guaranteed 2 + Intelligence modifier uses of Inspiration for things that don't get the auto availability clause.
* Increased Will and Reflex saves. 4 levels give me +3 on both saves, actually netting me a higher Will save than 17 straight levels in Paladin.
* Studied Combat/Strike. More a consequence to the Sleuth archetype, but I'd be able to literally fight smarter and harder. Think of it as an experienced Paladin figuring out where to hit to guarantee a minion goes down without necessarily resorting to Smite Evil. Only drawback is it only applies to melee attacks. No ranged option here.
13 levels of Paladin:
* Lay on Hands and Mercies. I'd have up to 6 + Charisma modifier uses of Lay on Hands, each doing 6d6 worth of healing and status removal....
I would consider swapping Charisma and Strength. Get those saves even higher and make him a Cha-focused Investigator. Also boost those Luck points.
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Smite Evil. I do end up with one less Smite than the 17th level Paladin, but everything else remains unchanged. Useful at range and melee.
Wrong. Difference between 13th level Paladin and 17th is 1 less smite per day and +4dmg EVERY hit against the smited target...and if the target is an evil outsider, dragon, or undead you're missing out on +8dmg EVERY hit.
Divine Bond - Brilliant Energy, Holy, Keen, Disruption, Merciful, Speed...All these are very useful and -2 enhancement bonus is a big hit. Example: 13th level Paladin will never be able to apply the Brilliant Energy quality to their weapon.
You're also missing out on 1 4th level spell, which leaves you with only 1 4th level spell per day. 4th level spells are a big deal, Holy Sword..it's a big deal. Missing 1 extra 1st, 2nd, and 3rd lvl spell also per day.
-2d6 Lay on Hands, unless you have Heroic Defiance if you drop then you're done. 2d6 could mean the difference and it's way more helpful if you have Fey Foundling, but I don't think you're interested in that feat for this character?
14th and 17th auras are pretty good - immunity to compulsion spells and spell-like abilities is worth more than a couple more points to Will saves. Allies in 10ft get a +4 bonus as well which could mean the difference in your party getting screwed up with, for example, a Confusion spell. The couple points more to will seems like a selfish move and in my opinion a weaker move all together. Aura of Faith allows allies in 10ft to overcome Evil DR also.
It seems you've already made up your mind so go with that, but my opinion is I think that build is weaker and less of a team player.
The problem is that the OP is basically trying to make a Paladin be passably good at its intended weak spot.
Furthermore, unless you are finding a way to change the attribute dependencies of Perception and Sense Motive, dumping Wisdom is just going to make you bad at what you want to be.
Now, logic would dictate that if there were a way to keep high Int and Wis while being a holy warrior, then your concept would be better fleshed out. And that is why people point at the Inquisitor, since its kit is better tailored for it.
Then the OP says he wants to dip into another class - this, of course, is the suboptimal choice, as the character will never be a great Paladin or a great Sleuth, but something in between. This is not necessarily bad, if the OP can enjoy it.
What if, I'm just thinking what if, you went Paladin into Gray Warden PrC instead? You would not be an Inquisitor per se, but you'd combine both classes seamlessly. I think that ideally you would go Weapon Finesse to focus on Dex, Wis and Cha, Human for the extra skill point. I think Focused Study is a good idea too, to put it on Disguise and then go for Eldritch Heritage - Rakshasa.
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Well you could try a Human Paladin with the Sacred Servant archetype for the Knowledge domain.
with 14 Intelligence, Fast Learner feat and Finding Haleen trait, you could have 60 skills point at level 10 and all the knowledge will be class skills.
If you go with a 25 point build you can make that work with a two handed build.
Well you could try a Human Paladin with the Sacred Servant archetype for the Knowledge domain.
with 14 Intelligence, Fast Learner feat and Finding Haleen trait, you could have 60 skills point at level 10 and all the knowledge will be class skills.
If you go with a 25 point build you can make that work with a two handed build.
Interesting option, and something I could consider with a different deity. Possibly as a worshiper of the empyreal lord Kelinahat. Just don't need the trait if I have the feat. I'd have 60 skill points at level 10 anyway. Might even be worth exploring with the Temple Champion archetype, and save on the trait. Maybe have the holy symbol birthmark trait instead. I could work that one as a Finesse/Archer build if needed. So that could be an interesting option.
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Interesting option, and something I could consider with a different deity. Possibly as a worshiper of the empyreal lord Kelinahat. Just don't need the trait if I have the feat. I'd have 60 skill points at level 10 anyway. Might even be worth exploring with the Temple Champion archetype, and save on the trait. Maybe have the holy symbol birthmark trait instead. I could work that one as a Finesse/Archer build if needed. So that could be an interesting option.Well you could try a Human Paladin with the Sacred Servant archetype for the Knowledge domain.
with 14 Intelligence, Fast Learner feat and Finding Haleen trait, you could have 60 skills point at level 10 and all the knowledge will be class skills.
If you go with a 25 point build you can make that work with a two handed build.
That looks very good, but I think that for an archer paladin you will be very feat starved without a dip in another class, maybe you could try a dip with a ranger for the skills or with slayer
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That looks very good, but I think that for an archer paladin you will be very feat starved without a dip in another class, maybe you could try a dip with a ranger for the skills or with slayerInteresting option, and something I could consider with a different deity. Possibly as a worshiper of the empyreal lord Kelinahat. Just don't need the trait if I have the feat. I'd have 60 skill points at level 10 anyway. Might even be worth exploring with the Temple Champion archetype, and save on the trait. Maybe have the holy symbol birthmark trait instead. I could work that one as a Finesse/Archer build if needed. So that could be an interesting option.Well you could try a Human Paladin with the Sacred Servant archetype for the Knowledge domain.
with 14 Intelligence, Fast Learner feat and Finding Haleen trait, you could have 60 skills point at level 10 and all the knowledge will be class skills.
If you go with a 25 point build you can make that work with a two handed build.
If only someone suggested a Divine Hunter build earlier in this thread that offered a way to get decent skill points as well.....