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Maybe this is goofy... but if you make a Paladin 2/Swashbuckler 2 with the trait Irrepresible and the feat Steadfast Personality, you can get Cha to a (mind-affecting, charm or compulsion) saving throw four times over?
Divine Grace gives untyped bonus to all saving throws, as does Charmed Life. Irrepresible lets you use Cha instead of Wis for Will against charm or compulsion, and Steadfast Personality gives an insight bonus on Will saves against mind-affecting.
Is there any reason for this not to work? Or could a character with 20 charisma get a +20 bonus (-Wis) on this type of save?
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Sure, if you'd want to. You'd suck at some other stuff though, as you're completely focused on your will saves. Ofcourse, it's only a +10, with a +20 on mind-affecting charms and compulsions. But if you want to take 2 levels in 2 classes each, a feat, a trait and put 17 points into charisma just to use this exploit you could.
Dev posts have stated that they didn't intend for that to be possible. Ignoring that, though, yes, it's possible with a moderately flexible reading of RAW.
Dev posts have stated that they didn't intend for that to be possible. Ignoring that, though, yes, it's possible with a moderately flexible reading of RAW.
That was James Jacobs who admittedly is not a rules guy. Nobody from the rules team has had any quotes linked to them yet.
Sure, if you'd want to. You'd suck at some other stuff though, as you're completely focused on your will saves. Ofcourse, it's only a +10, with a +20 on mind-affecting charms and compulsions. But if you want to take 2 levels in 2 classes each, a feat, a trait and put 17 points into charisma just to use this exploit you could.
Like I said, it's a bit goofy... but not COMPLETELY crazy. Paladin and Swashbuckler are both full BAB classes with bonuses for Cha, so they work together relatively nicely. And a trait and a feat is not really much of a price to pay.
Plus, it seems to me like almost all Will saves are mind-affecting, and most of the ones that REALLY suck to fail are compulsions (plus, if you take that third Paladin level you're immune to fear as well, so that covers most of everything else.) But maybe I'm just not thinking hard enough.
Dev posts have stated that they didn't intend for that to be possible. Ignoring that, though, yes, it's possible with a moderately flexible reading of RAW.
Actually JJ seems to think that this should work just fine:
Then if you want to get REALLY goofy, dip Lore Oracle to get 3xCha to Reflex saves.
Seriously though, a 2-level dip in Swashbuckler seems pretty attractive for a Paladin. You pick up Opportune Parry and Riposte and Dodging Panache on top of Charmed Life, and you can even still use your greatsword and full plate, if you're not concerned about regenerating panache. Plus you don't lose BAB progression.
Dev posts have stated that they didn't intend for that to be possible. Ignoring that, though, yes, it's possible with a moderately flexible reading of RAW.Actually JJ seems to think that this should work just fine:
Thanks for this post. In another similar situation he did not like it(replacing a stat and also adding that stat to whatever was rolled). I don't know which one of his views is the newest, but I think the one where he was against it was made last year.
go paladin 12 and become immune
go paladin 12 and become immune
Huh? Paladins don't get immunity to anything at 12th level.
They become immune to Charm spells at 8th level, but who really cares about Charm spells anyway? Compulsion spells are the scary ones, and paladins don't get immunity to that until 17th level!
Without knowing much about Steadfast Personality: ~if~ the trait and feat both say you get your Cha bonus, then they wouldn't stack.
Steadfast Personality gives an insight bonus.
Bonuses from the same source (in this Case the Cha Attibute bonus), do not stack (RAW), only the higher of the two is applied (Or one of the two if they are the same bonus)
Where is this written?
Without knowing much about Steadfast Personality: ~if~ the trait and feat both say you get your Cha bonus, then they wouldn't stack. Bonuses from the same source (in this Case the Cha Attibute bonus), do not stack (RAW), only the higher of the two is applied (Or one of the two if they are the same bonus)
That is not correct.
1. The feat/class feature/spell/etc is the source of the bonus not the ability score.2. Ability scores and their modifiers are not bonus types.
That means I can have an insight bonus equal to my charisma bonus, and a moral bonus equal to my charisma bonus and they can both stack. What I can not do is have two insight(fill in other bonus type as needed) bonuses equal to my charisma bonus even if they have different sources that apply to the same total.
Where is this written?http://www.d20pfsrd.com/basics-ability-scores/glossary
Bonus
Bonuses are numerical values that are added to checks and statistical scores. Most bonuses have a type, and as a general rule, bonuses of the same type are not cumulative (do not “stack”)—only the greater bonus granted applies.
The important aspect of bonus types is that two bonuses of the same type don't generally stack. With the exception of dodge bonuses, most circumstance bonuses, and racial bonuses, only the better bonus of a given type works. Bonuses without a type always stack, unless they are from the same source.
That is not correct.
1. The feat/class feature/spell/etc is the source of the bonus not the ability score.2. Ability scores and their modifiers are not bonus types.
That means I can have an insight bonus equal to my charisma bonus, and a moral bonus equal to my charisma bonus and they can both stack. What I can not do is have two insight(fill in other bonus type as needed) bonuses equal to my charisma bonus even if they have different sources that apply to the same total.
Correct you can have those two bonuses. But, they are listed as DIFFERENT bonus types: Moral, Insight, etc.
Unless the feat and trait listed say they stack with other bonuses of the same type for some reason. They don't stack and the larger takes precedence. And they almost always (unless someone missed saying it in editing) Say what type they are. Some few are listed as not having a type and those do stack. But they will say they have no type as well.
And as I would note. IF the feat and traits say just Charisma bonus (And are not typed), then they are from the same "Source" And do not stack.
The source being whatever trait generates the bonus. In this case and attribute.
That is incorrect. The feat/spell/etc is the source. By saying "use your charisma bonus", it is just telling you where to go in order to get the value of the bonus.
As an example if a feat and spell said to add half your class level to saves, without naming it as a bonus type, it(class level) is not the source. It is is the point of reference so you can know what bonus to use. The same applies with using charisma.
The fact that they did not give the charisma bonus a type does not default the source to the ability score. The source is the same no matter if the bonus type is named or untyped.
The books almost always say that the bonus is "sourceless" so that right there decides what kind of source it is. And source is where does it come from.. kinda what the word itself means.
You check the source and type. If any op them match they match, they don't stack.
Which by the way conveniently fixes the OP question.
Show me where the book says "sourceless".
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What in the name of creation are you talking about? The feat or class ability is the source of the bonus. You are confusing "type" with "source".
Wraith is correct. You are 100% wrong, and just posted the rules citation illustrating exactly why.