Ok another question about OP that I'm not clear on from the rules:
If I give a card to another player during play, that card is effectively in their deck for the remainder of the session. At the end of the session, what happens to that card? Does it go back to my deck? Or does it get banished to my Class Deck box, since it is no longer in my deck at the end of the session? I know if I had to banish it I wouldn't be able to take it back, and the normal deck building rules where players can freely swap cards after a scenario don't apply so I'm thinking that the rules for handling cards that were acquired during gameplay would apply. But it wasn't "acquired" so I could see just having it returned to my deck at the end.
Putting it in the pot is almost as bad as not getting it back since you can only pick one card from the pot, limiting you to taking back the card you gave away or getting an upgrade, but not both. Effectively, you're giving up the opportunity to upgrade or banishing the card.
The guide doesn't specifically say you what happens to character cards in your deck that aren't yours (or I can't find it), but I'm pretty sure they don't go into the pot:
Both methods begin by sorting all newly acquired cards by card type and place them in the center of the play area. (They’ll be easy to identify, as they should all have an Adventure Path logo instead of a class deck logo in the upper-right corner.)
Emphasis mine.
It's splitting hairs, but if they were in someone's deck at the start of the scenario, they haven't been "newly acquired". My guess would be that the Class Deck cards are returned to their owners (well, I know this much is true; your cards are your cards) and that your character doesn't lose them.
EDIT: reorganized and reworded a bit
I agree that they likely aren't "newly acquired cards" as described in the OP manual as that could be exploited to build decks with higher level cards than were acquired through standard play. For example, if Valeros acquires a level 4 sword and wants to be able to keep it at the end of the session, but knows he will have too many weapons, he could give a level 3 weapon he won't need to Lem thereby adding it to the pool of acquired weapons. That doesn't seem correct.
But the rules do say:
They’ll be easy to identify, as they should all have an Adventure Path logo instead of a class deck logo in the upper-right corner.
Should. Not will leaving the door open to "acquiring" cards from class decks somehow. That could just be hedging to leave the door open for them, though.
Regardless the card also isn't in Valeros's deck. In standard play, if Valeros gives Lem a weapon, at the end of the scenario that weapon is still in Lem's deck. Lem may choose to give it back to Valeros or may choose to keep it. But that would be during deck rebuilding and the rules are very clear that deck rebuilding doesn't work the same in OP as it does in standard play.
So both options (the card is banished to the box or the card is returned to the original owner's deck) seem like possible interpretations of the rules as written. Treating it as a newly acquired card is possible but seems less likely. Banishing it sounds harsh, I admit, but that doesn't mean it's wrong.
If you look under Upgrading your deck the first line is "In Adventure Card Guild play, you don’t get to keep the cards that you’ve acquired or otherwise gained during the scenario.". That would include cards you have been given.
So it is not expicit where that the given card goes but it is definatly not kept by the person you gave it to and should end up with its owner at the end of the night.
Rules need clarified but my assumption would be that it ends up back in the deck of the character who gave it out.
Rules need clarified but my assumption would be that it ends up back in the deck of the character who gave it out.
I second agraham's statement.
I *hope* that it goes back in the character deck of the owner, (it definitely at least goes back in their class deck), as that would facilitate strategy and cooperation, and would be great for characters whose decks need fleshing out in the early game like Meliski (he just begs to borrow a weapon). But I can easily see them ruling that it goes back into the class deck instead.
It goes back to the owner for rebuilding their deck. The thing you have to remember is that some of the rules from the S&S rulebook still function as normal. The "upgrade rules" from OP cover what to do with S&S cards. But for non-S&S cards you are still covered by...
After each scenario, you must rebuild your character deck. Start by combining your discard pile with your hand, your character deck, any cards you buried under your character card, and any cards you displayed; you may then freely trade cards with other players.
So, OP changes two things in there. First, cards from the S&S decks get pulled out of your discard pile, hand, character deck, buried pile, and displayed cards. They instead go in the middle for the upgrade. Second, the part about freely trading is affected by the rule that you can only have cards from the appropriate class deck. So you are forced to freely trade them back to their proper owner. After that you do the upgrade then rebuild your deck.
It goes back to the owner for rebuilding their deck. The thing you have to remember is that some of the rules from the S&S rulebook still function as normal. The "upgrade rules" from OP cover what to do with S&S cards. But for non-S&S cards you are still covered by...
After each scenario, you must rebuild your character deck. Start by combining your discard pile with your hand, your character deck, any cards you buried under your character card, and any cards you displayed; you may then freely trade cards with other players.So, OP changes two things in there. First, cards from the S&S decks get pulled out of your discard pile, hand, character deck, buried pile, and displayed cards. They instead go in the middle for the upgrade. Second, the part about freely trading is affected by the rule that you can only have cards from the appropriate class deck. So you are forced to freely trade them back to their proper owner. After that you do the upgrade then rebuild your deck.
This doesn't seem right to me.
I don't have the OP rules in front of me, but I thought they specifically disabled the trading between scenarios?
Also, "forced to freely trade" is an oxymoronic statement. :P
I agree that what you say makes the most sense, Hawkmoon, but the rules also state:
Don’t Trade Cards When Setting Up
The rules about trading cards during setup do not apply in PFSACG play. You must begin each scenario only with cards from your own deck. (You can still give cards to other characters when allowed.)
This is the only mention of trading cards in the OP Guide. Logically, you also cannot freely trade between scenarios as the rules about what cards you begin the scenario with still apply. And if you are playing multiple scenarios, "between scenarios", "after scenarios" and "during setup" are all functionally equivalent.
So a strict interpretation of the rules as written would mean cards I give to another player are banished back to my Class Deck box at the end of the game (since they are not acquired, they wouldn't count towards deck upgrades). I hope that isn't the intention as it would cause people to be less likely to share items cooperatively.
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During an OP scenario, I had to shuffle an Item into a specific location deck. After play ended, I retrieved it back to my (ranger) deck. We did not include it in our booty and upgrades.
Also, in OP, you cannot do the free trading with others (when setting up). Page 6: The rules about trading cards during setup do not apply in PFSACG play. You must begin each scenario only with cards from your own deck. (You can still give cards to other characters when allowed.)
So while you can freely trade cards in S&S, you cannot in OP. Cards given during play return back to the owner. They're not upgrades nor rewards nor booty. However, I'd like to know what happens if you give a card during play (allowed) and in order to play that card, it becomes banished by the current player. Is the card banished from the owner?
However, I'd like to know what happens if you give a card during play (allowed) and in order to play that card, it becomes banished by the current player. Is the card banished from the owner?
That was the original question.
Actually, I'm more concerned with giving the card to a friend and having the scenario end while they still have it (a very common situation).
I would assume that if I give someone a card and they banish it it stays banished. That is fair and I would hope they would ask me before they do that.
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However, I'd like to know what happens if you give a card during play (allowed) and in order to play that card, it becomes banished by the current player. Is the card banished from the owner?That was the original question.
The original question was if the person you have it to still had it at the end.
If the player you give it to banished it, it's gone, and you'll have to get it back some way just as if you'd banished it, no doubt about that.
I assume that you rebuild your deck at the end of each scenario just like you do in the regular game, with the one exception that you only use cards from your class deck. After this you do the crazy plunder/unlocking a new card step, and then you will probably get to finish off with cards from the deck box. Basically, I agree with the people who have already demoed the game :)
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However, I'd like to know what happens if you give a card during play (allowed) and in order to play that card, it becomes banished by the current player. Is the card banished from the owner?That was the original question.The original question was if the person you have it to still had it at the end.
If the player you give it to banished it, it's gone, and you'll have to get it back some way just as if you'd banished it, no doubt about that.
Yeah, thought the original question was simply if you give a card to someone during gameplay, does the card return to your class deck after the scenario (but before the rewards and upgrades)?
My question is if during the use of said card by the other player it gets banished, I'm guessing it is banished and does not return. (Even if when I would use it, it would be discarded, buried or recharged.) It would be gone. And I'd have to rebuild my deck using the rules.
Sorry, I somehow missed the "it becomes banished by the current player" part; I must have rolled a 1 on my Perception check.
It's only half the text; give me a break. :P
Ok another question about OP that I'm not clear on from the rules:
If I give a card to another player during play, that card is effectively in their deck for the remainder of the session. At the end of the session, what happens to that card? Does it go back to my deck? Or does it get banished to my Class Deck box, since it is no longer in my deck at the end of the session? I know if I had to banish it I wouldn't be able to take it back, and the normal deck building rules where players can freely swap cards after a scenario don't apply so I'm thinking that the rules for handling cards that were acquired during gameplay would apply. But it wasn't "acquired" so I could see just having it returned to my deck at the end.
"It's organized play, son. When your character dies, you die, too."
Cards you give to other players during play go back into your deck before upgrading or rebuilding, just as in normal play. The section of the guide quoted about trading cards refers to trading cards during setup. If the card was banished during play, however, it's still banished, and goes back to your Class Deck box. You rebuild per the guide rules.
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Awesome.
This actually shows that I was playing under a misconception. We always played it as giving someone a card made it part of their deck and they gave it back optionally (we always did if they wanted it back) during the trading time; I didn't realize that it went back to them by default.
EDIT: It's bad that I only just now made the connection that Tanis' avatar is Flenta. >.<
Thanks for clarifying, Tanis! So "giving" is really just "loaning." Makes sense.
Chief Technical Officer
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Awesome.
This actually shows that I was playing under a misconception. We always played it as giving someone a card made it part of their deck and they gave it back optionally (we always did if they wanted it back) during the trading time; I didn't realize that it went back to them by default.
We don't actually say that in the rulebook; because you can trade freely, and it's a cooperative game, we don't actually need to say it.
We will add it to the Guide, though.