Note: this thread is for discussing experiences using Dex to damage in home Pf games, not suggesting feats to allow it.
Seeing the threads about Dex to damage cropping up in response to the ACG has made me curious: How many have already tried using, or currently use a broad Dex to damage option (an option that isn't limited to one weapon, or a handful of weapons) in their Pf games?
Those that have, have you noticed any issues with doing so (i.e. have Str builds completely vanished, are Dex focused combatants dominating every fight with their initiative and AC, etc.)?
Have you noticed any positive results (i.e. have rogue and monk enjoyed an effectiveness bump, have you seen a greater variety of weapons being used, etc.)?
Ultimately, did you decide to keep the broad Dex to damage option in your games?
Edit: formatted to separate out the questions.
In my games, Dervish Dance gives dex to damage for any one-handed finesse weapon. It works pretty well. There's less people exclusively using scimitars, which is good.
In my games, Dervish Dance gives dex to damage for any one-handed finesse weapon. It works pretty well. There's less people exclusively using scimitars, which is good.
That is good. In my experience the only thing less fun than seeing many characters always using the same weapon is playing characters always using the same weapon.
Does it see use by classes other than Magus?
In my games, Dervish Dance gives dex to damage for any one-handed finesse weapon. It works pretty well. There's less people exclusively using scimitars, which is good.That is good. In my experience the only thing less fun than seeing many characters always using the same weapon is playing characters always using the same weapon.
Does it see use by classes other than Magus?
Clerics of Sarenrae.
In my games, Dervish Dance gives dex to damage for any one-handed finesse weapon. It works pretty well. There's less people exclusively using scimitars, which is good.That is good. In my experience the only thing less fun than seeing many characters always using the same weapon is playing characters always using the same weapon.
Does it see use by classes other than Magus?
At the moment, there's a dervish of dawn fighter with a finessable spear (it's from the setting). I haven't had someone want to play a dex magus, I don't know if I would allow Dervish Dance to work with that (since it's iffy if their hand is truly "free").
I find that broad dex-to-damage is usually a non-issue as far as game mechanics go; all it really does is open up more viable options for dex characters. If you limit dex-to-damage to a single weapon, the only thing that changes is that all dex-based characters will use that weapon exclusively. Much like a fighter who's picked up all the weapon focus/specialization feats, a character who depends on a specific weapon to function will just refuse to use any other weapon.
GM: Bob, you find a +4 Shortsword in the loot pile.
Bob: Cool, I can sell that to upgrade by +2 Scimitar!
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I just played D&D 5th ed on Wednesday. There is no 'finesse' feat; 'finesse' is a weapon quality.
All melee weapons use Str to attack and damage, all ranged weapons use Dex to attack and damage.
Weapons with the 'finesse' quality (whether melee or ranged) use either Str or Dex, wielder's choice.
Melee weapons with the 'thrown' quality use whatever stat is normal (Str, or either Str or Dex if the weapon also has the 'finesse' quality, like the dagger).
This, combined with the fact that anyone can get all their attacks as well as move their speed, breaking up their move between attacks as desired, has finally allowed me to play a full-on, scenery-chewing, mobile swashbuckler!
This hasn't stopped Str builds from flourishing, because medium armour only allows a max of +2 to AC from Dex, and heavy armour disallows either a Dex bonus or a Dex penalty to AC, so the Str builds usually have a marginally better AC.
We enjoyed ourselves immensely.
TBH, there is no reason PF couldn't do this. Try it in a home game using PF. It will require minor tweaking at most, and it might slightly help the caster/martial disparity.
Try it in a home game using PF. It will require minor tweaking at most, and it might slightly help the caster/martial disparity.
I do. I have both Dex to Damage (as a no pre-req feat), and full attack while moving in my games. I agree that they're both at least fine, probably an improvement.
I'd just been reading doom and gloom predictions about what a broad Dex to damage feat would unleash, and I'm wondering if that's something anyone has seen borne out in actual play, or strictly hypothetical.
In my games it's not caused any problems at all. Instead, it's expanded options, and made more character types viable and fun to play.
In my games, Dervish Dance gives dex to damage for any one-handed finesse weapon. It works pretty well. There's less people exclusively using scimitars, which is good.
My god is that good! Dervish dance has made me DESPISE scimitars and those who use them. I was literally in a PFS group where every melee fought with a scimitar, including the NPC's!
I allow slashing grace to work with any finessable weapon. I used to do dervish dance but like the basis of slashing grace better.
My analysis:
Strength still puts out more damage overall, and they don't completely fall away, especially in the early game. 2 handing strength builds still has a minimum (from a feat standpoint anyway) investment, so its great still for gish type builds.
Dexterity builds really start to pull ahead in the mid game. There is still a damage gap, but they start getting much better defenses. AC, Reflex, skill checks, initiatives really start to run away. Assuming they had a caster they may have even done a strength dump (ant haul solves pretty much all 7 strength problems by level 3) so they had many more build points to play with and their other stats are higher because of it, perhaps 28 points instead of 24. Its even more pronounced when someone dies and comes in without having to deal with the valley of suck that one would normally deal with. Also, dex to unarmed strike REALLY helps MAD monk builds.
The problem is, strength doesn't do much, and carry capacity is taken care of by a 1st level spell thats on nearly everyones spell list. Everyone buys one or two level 1 pearls of power and there is literally almost no disadvantage to it. In my opinion mid game on the Dex builds are really dominating the game, not really in damage necessary, but their ability to survive and thrive.
All that being said, I don't think allowing that option has really dropped off my strength builds. On the feat side its much less intensive still, and a lot of people just like strength.
I allow Dervish Dance to work with all finessable weapons plus one 1-handed weapon of the character's choice (so it can still be used with scimitars) for quite a while, now. The only restriction is that it can't be used while donning a shield of any kind.
Still, Str-based builds save 2 feats and have higher damage output, so there is a considerable trade off.
So far this thread is matching my expectations
Of course the plural of "Anecdote" isn't data, but for such a subjective experience as gaming, few data are hard and fast anyway.
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I'm interested in these experiences too, because I'm trying to determine what kind of dex to damage feat/option would be fun and balanced. I'm intrigued by the observation that a broad (finesseable)access as opposed to the scimitar-only access doesn't affect balance all that much, just the diversity of weapons used. That's encouraging.
I allow dex to damage for finesse weapons with no option for 1.5 time dex damage. It requires weapon finesse as a prerequisite feat. So far it seems perfectly balanced
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I use Finesse-without-Feat like some other people do; I've considered instituting a feat to also get Dex to damage. I don't want to render Strength obsolete entirely though.
I was thinking that I might cap the maximum damage added to damage by the max Dex to AC, as determined by armor and load. Since low Strength means a low light load, that would discourage excessive Strength dumping unless you don't plan to carry a lot of gear.
Yes. All of the people in my campaign worlds start out with Weapon Finesse's effects working automatically. If they take the actual feat they get to apply their Dex to damage only on weapons that fall under Weapon Finesse's umbrella. No extra actions, no extra restrictions outside of not being allowed to power attack while using the benefits of the feat. I've had zero issues with anyone out-damaging or outclassing the straight strength guys, who still throw out the big numbers because of power attack et. al., but it's opened up a LOT of builds for characters to be less MAD, and my players love the flexibility and versatility it provides. Also gives less martial classes a tiny boost to hit at level 1, which makes them feel less useless in those long or big fights.
Right now... Out of 4 gaming groups that use my houseruled Dervish Dance (10~13 players), only 3 guys went for it. A 4th one started with Weapon Finesse but soon retrained to a Str build.