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I've been comparing the two archetypes and I've been having a difficult time deciding whether one is better than the other. This is based off 11th level in PFS.
If both classes have a 26int (22int at 8th level +4 int headband) and they both grab the exploit "Bloodline Development: Arcane" (using 1 Arcane Reservoir point to be able to cast an additional spell at their highest spell level) they then have the following -
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Spells - 1st: 6, 2nd: 6, 3rd: 6, 4th: 5, 5th: 3, 6th: 3
Character Feats - 6
Exploit Feats - 3
Wizard Feats - 3 (one of those being Scribe Scroll, which can be traded for Spell Focus in PFS)
* When using Quick Study exploit a Wizard only swaps out a single spell slot for a different spell, unlike the Arcanist that swaps out a spell prepared for that spell level.
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Spells - 1st: 7, 2nd: 7, 3rd: 7, 4th: 7, 5th: 6
Character Feats - 6
Exploit Feats - 3
* May Select an Arcane School but gains 2 Opposition Schools. (Teleportation School gives swift action movements for example.)
* Can Take a Greater Exploit at 11th level
* Has Consume Spells ability to gain more Arcane points back during the day
* When using Quick Study exploit an Arcanist swaps out a spell prepared for that spell level for a different spell and is able to cast that new spell until their spells per day in that spell level slot are expended.
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So it seems the Arcanist can pick an Arcane School (Hello Teleportation!), has more spells per day, may select a greater exploit, has more versatility with Quick Study, and can consume spells to regain Arcane Reservoir points back during the day.
But, the Wizard has more total feats and has 6th level spells.
What archetype do you think is stronger?
I like the Arcanist Best. They simply have better gameplay. I Think the exploiter wizard May be a bit more powerfull in the hands of a expert but i the Arcanist Will be better for most folks.
Some GMs May read the arcane School as allowing you to cast a spell not in your book but that is one of your spells known, and therefore not to work with wizard and arcanist.
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Some GMs May read the arcane School as allowing you to cast a spell not in your book but that is one of your spells known, and therefore not to work with wizard and arcanist.
Sounds like this would still play to an Arcanist. Arcanist study their spell book in the morning for 1hour but after that they cast from their "spells known" for the day of what they selected. The Bloodline should give the Arcanist the ability to cast 1 spell of any level from their "spells known" for that day (that is if they spent 1 Arcane Point, otherwise they'd have to select from their 1st level spells known for that day).
That's what I interpret from the reading. Wizards it seems they are SOL as they reference their spellbook during every casting. Aracanist reference their spellbook at the start of the day and then put it away for the rest of the day.
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Anyone else care to throw in their thoughts on which seem stronger?
Wizards it seems they are SOL as they reference their spellbook during every casting.
This isn't true. Once he has memorised spells, a wizard does not need to go anywhere near his book until he wants to fill the slots again.
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Wizards it seems they are SOL as they reference their spellbook during every casting.This isn't true. Once he has memorised spells, a wizard does not need to go anywhere near his book until he wants to fill the slots again.
In that case both the Wizard and Arcanist would qualify for Bloodline Arcane to use the Bonded Object to cast one of the spells they memorized in that day. Or a different spell if they use Quick Study exploit.
Now that's cleared up. Lets stay on topic of which archetype's strengths outweigh the other's.
Wizards it seems they are SOL as they reference their spellbook during every casting.This isn't true. Once he has memorised spells, a wizard does not need to go anywhere near his book until he wants to fill the slots again.
agreed
Wizard = once he memorized his spells, he has them till they are cast. He/She can go for days/weeks/years with those spell slot memorized, and not need there spell books until cast.
Sorcerer = does not need spell book, but limited by the number of spell they can know.
School Savant Arcanist = Get the best of both worlds, but i did notice that there once weakness, was that they have to re-read there spell book every day.. to refresh there spells options. If they lose, there spell books, then in 24 hours, lose all access to spells, till they find another spell book. Or at least, that is how i read it.
Wizards it seems they are SOL as they reference their spellbook during every casting.This isn't true. Once he has memorised spells, a wizard does not need to go anywhere near his book until he wants to fill the slots again.In that case both the Wizard and Arcanist would qualify for Bloodline Arcane to use the Bonded Object to cast one of the spells they memorized in that day. Or a different spell if they use Quick Study exploit.
Now that's cleared up. Lets stay on topic of which archetype's strengths outweigh the other's.
I am not trying to start a argument i just say expect table variation. Just like if you had used Eldrich heritage(arcane) to get the bounded object.
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Also, if the wizard takes the school understanding exploit, he gets an extra spell slot per spell level.
I don't see anything in the School Understanding exploit saying that. It states that you gain the 1st level power of the School that you can use 3+cha mod times a day. Then it says if you spend an Arcane point you treat your Arcanist level as your Wizard level for this ability and you also gain the other 1st level ability (assuming that's the one you get automatically with the School that doesn't have uses per day).
The last part states if you have or gain an Arcane School then your Arcanist levels stacks with the level of the class that grants the school. The Wizard loses their Arcane School feature and taking the School Understanding is an exploit that I don't believe counts for this last part.
Nothing in there besides maybe the wording of the last part would hint towards gaining extra spell slots. All said, I think the School Savant Arcanist gains way more here as he uses his Int mod for the 1st level ability and gains all the other features + extra spell slot per level at all times...only downfall is he has to select 2 opposition schools.
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So, going through the breakdowns:
Greater Exploits are only powerful if one is sharply better than a normal Exploit, since the Arcanist lacks a volume advantage. Personally, I can't see one that is clearly better. Most of the very good ones are either Cha-based or have a very poor pre-req, which means that the Greater Exploit has to stand on its own against two of the Wizard's Exploits.
Greater Metamagic Knowledge? As long as you meet the pre-requirements you can switch out the metamagic you selected with this exploit for any other metamagic. You know you're going to a haunted house? Pick up Ectoplasmic Spell metamagic. Sometimes it's hard to judge what exactly you'd need but it gives flexibility to pick and choose a metamagic feat. Not total awesomesauce but it's definitely not bad.
Consume Spells: Conventional wisdom for the Arcanist seems to be predicated on sinking an Exploit into Consume Magic Items. These can be very cost-efficient and don't dent your available spells, only your gold supply (and possibly only even one-time). Because both of them want to use an Exploit instead of this ability: No advantage.
Arcanist has Consume Spells for free, which he can sacrifice a 3rd or 4th level spell and get 3 or 4 points back which he can use to fuel one of his many abilities. Taking Consume Magic Items will use up one of either of these archetypes' limited exploits. Exploiter Wizard gets 3 exploits in their PFS career so taking Quick Study, Potent Magic, and Familiar eats up all their available exploits with NO way to get additional exploits unlike the Arcanist who can take the "Extra Exploit" feat. Arcanist can take all 3 of those exploits AND Consume Magic Items (and more exploits if they wish) by the same level.
EDIT: It should be noted that Arcanist qualifies to take Extra Exploit feat as they have the Arcanist Exploit class ability, but the Exploiter Wizard gains the Exploiter Exploit ability which doesn't meet the requirements to take the Extra Exploit feat. So in a homegame the GM could houserule it but in PFS it's illegal for the Exploiter Wizard to take the Extra Exploit feat.
Arcane School: Spell advantage has already been commented on. Powers allow short-range swift action teleportation, increased summons duration, and medium-range standard action group teleportation. The Wizard cannot effectively emulate this power without spending an exploit and arcane points. Advantage: Arcanist.
Arcanist wins miles ahead here. Their 1st level power is determined by Int and not Charisma (which, honestly, both archetypes are going to dump Charisma 90% of the time). So an Exploiter Wizard with the School Understanding exploit (which will take up 1 of their 3 available exploits in their PFS career) gets to use 'Shift' 4 times a day if they have a 12 charisma. An Arcanist on the other hand gets to use 'Shift' 8 times a day if they have a 20 intelligence.
To make things worse, If the Exploiter Wizard spends 1 arcane point with School Understanding it only lets you improve your 1st level ability and you get the free ability you get from the school for a limited time. You never receive the 8th level ability (in Teleportation's case, Dimensional Hop) and you never get the +1 spell slot per spell level...ever.
Arcanist wins by miles here.
Quick Study: This is the long one, and a proper analysis requires a digression into the difference between the two classes, because they use it in very different ways. The Arcanist is using this ability to expand on their strategic flexibility. At level 11, he has two fifth level spells prepared. Assuming he would like to use all spell slots over the course of the day, he thus has two options.
The first is to consistently prepare...
I agree with your points here and I must say I thought Arcanist was in the lead here. It still concerns me though that if a Wizard selects spells and they come up against something that is immune to them then he has to swap out each spell individually at the cost of 1 point for each spell slot. Now if he only has 1 spell that he swaps out then that's great, as long as it was enough to handle the situation (didn't get resisted or enemy didn't save for half/etc).
If an Arcanist has a Fire spell and a monster is resistant to fire he can swap it for an Ice spell and he now has 4 or so Ice spells to deal with the situation. In the heat of a battle, an Arcanist is losing 1 turn to Quick Study and be useful for the whole fight whereas a Wizard has to lose multiple turns if the 1st spell doesn't do the job. Doing this is battle isn't recommended but it's possible with Invisibility or such.
I thought the Teleport spell example was a poor example though. A School Savant Arcanist has 'Shift' and 'Dimensional Steps' if they picked the Teleportation school. At 10th level Dim Door will get you 800ft as a 4th level spell and for rare cases where specifically Teleport or some other spell is needed it's probably best to buy a scroll as both should have plenty of scrolls for rare/odd occasions.
Do you think my points are valid? If so, what would be your comparison between the two archetypes after reading my counter arguments?
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Quick Study: This is the long one, and a proper analysis requires a digression into the difference between the two classes, because they use it in very different ways. The Arcanist is using this ability to expand on their strategic flexibility. At level 11, he has two fifth level spells prepared. Assuming he would like to use all spell slots over the course of the day, he thus has two options.
The first is to consistently prepare...
You seem to forget that the School savant get a extra Spell from his School pr level. So he will have 3 level 5 spells prepared.
It is not gonna change the fact that the wizard have level 6 spells.But the arcanist is close in power and way better in gameplay, IMOP.
And for most folks, folks that like me are no experts, the arcanist will get more use out of his spells since he wont have to live with the 30% that ditent come in handy that Day.
Edit: to fix stuff.
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You seem to forget that the School savant get a extra Spell from his School pr level. So he will have 3 level 5 spells prepared.
It is not gonna change the fact that the wizard have level 6 spells.
But the arcanist is close in power and way better in gameplay, IMOP.
And for most folks, folks that like me are no experts, the arcanist will get more use out of his spells since he wont have to live with the 30% that ditent come in handy that Day.
Edit: to fix stuff.
This brings up a good question. Does the SPELL SLOT from the Wizard's School allow the Arcanist to have an extra CAST per day or an extra spell PREPARED per day or does it give the Arcanist a Spell Slot that behaves like the Wizard's spell slots?
"In addition, the arcanist can prepare one additional spell per day of each level she can cast, but this spell must be chosen from the selected school."
Looks like the ACG words it perfectly. Cap. Darling is correct. You don't gain an extra spell slot or cast per level with School Savant, but you can prepare 1 extra spell per level, increasing your options of what you can cast. Nice, and maybe better than getting an extra cast per day?
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Now, the Wizard can swap those 30% non-handy spells via Quick Study but he's using up Arcane Reservoir points for each spell and he doesn't have Consume Spells ability. So he'll either run out of AR points quickly or he'll have to take Consume Magic Items exploit to regain AR points during the day.
If the Exploiter Wizard takes consume Magic Items exploit he only has 2 more exploits to select by the time he hits level 11. the School Savant will get his 1st Arcanist Exploit at 5th level and then 2 more exploits by the time he hits level 11. Difference is the Arcanist qualifies for Extra Exploit feat so he's not limited to only 3 exploits by the time he hits level 11. Some of the exploits are IMO better than feats.
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Just chipping in. Are Lv 6 spells and more importantly, having earlier access to higher level spells over the course of leveling up to lv 11 worth it?
For some classes like Clerics, that one level earlier access to higher level spells can be a big deal. It can means your party's fighter being restored with a restoration spell, or that same fighter remaining a punching bag, due to that -10 to str drain.
Is this the case for arcane casters? Would say the ability to pull out a haste or fly spell means success or the end of a party?
Edit: Access to a higher spell level should be viewed as over the course of a character's career and not just from a lv 11 prospective. After all in PFS, you are making a character to play from lv 1, not just for lv 11.
You seem to forget that the School savant get a extra Spell from his School pr level. So he will have 3 level 5 spells prepared.
It is not gonna change the fact that the wizard have level 6 spells.
But the arcanist is close in power and way better in gameplay, IMOP.
And for most folks, folks that like me are no experts, the arcanist will get more use out of his spells since he wont have to live with the 30% that ditent come in handy that Day.
Edit: to fix stuff.This brings up a good question. Does the SPELL SLOT from the Wizard's School allow the Arcanist to have an extra CAST per day or an extra spell PREPARED per day or does it give the Arcanist a Spell Slot that behaves like the Wizard's spell slots?
"In addition, the arcanist can prepare one additional spell per day of each level she can cast, but this spell must be chosen from the selected school."Looks like the ACG words it perfectly. Cap. Darling is correct. You don't gain an extra spell slot or cast per level with School Savant, but you can prepare 1 extra spell per level, increasing your options of what you can cast. Nice, and maybe better than getting an extra cast per day?
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Now, the Wizard can swap those 30% non-handy spells via Quick Study but he's using up Arcane Reservoir points for each spell and he doesn't have Consume Spells ability. So he'll either run out of AR points quickly or he'll have to take Consume Magic Items exploit to regain AR points during the day.If the Exploiter Wizard takes consume Magic Items exploit he only has 2 more exploits to select by the time he hits level 11. the School Savant will get his 1st Arcanist Exploit at 5th level and then 2 more exploits by the time he hits level 11. Difference is the Arcanist qualifies for Extra Exploit feat so he's not limited to only 3 exploits by the time he hits level 11. Some of the exploits are IMO better than feats.
I think a important thing to remember is that the wizard/arcanist can fill different roles here. If you go with teleportation School the arcanist gets some survivabillity and extra conjuration spells. If you go with, my personal favorite, admixture you get to be a exelent and Versatile blaster but that is proberbly the only two schools that is worth it. Unless you really love divination spells.
I think it is important to define what role you want the magic guy to fill before deciding who is the most powerfull. Is it Classic god wizard, blaster, save or suck, or do you want it all?In case of the last i think a admixture arcanist with Dazing fireball is the way to go.
Edit: the 30% was just number i POOMA and for some folks it will be higher and i assume it can be lower as well.
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Greater Exploits: Greater Metamagic Knowledge is actually exactly the sort of issue I was talking about with the double-cost. On its own, yes, it's a strong exploit. But it has a pre-req of sinking another Exploit into Metamagic Knowledge, which is a very weak exploit. By the time we're looking at the desired Arcane Bond or Familiar noted earlier in the thread, Quick Study, Consume Magic Items, Metamagic Knowledge, and Greater Metamagic Knowledge, the Arcanist is burning their limited feat slots to pull advantage out of a class feature. So it becomes a trade-off, and I have a hard time acknowledging that as any kind of serious advantage for the Arcanist.
Unless you can think of some really great feats besides taking Spell Penetration or a Metamagic feat then I'd say 2 exploits for 1 static metamagic and 1 metamagic that can be whatever one you want that day is a pretty decent choice. I can't think of any great feats but feel free to give some suggestions as I'm not primarily an Arcane player.
Consume Spells: If you have zero desire to take Consume Magic Items, that would shift the paradigm. That said, everything I've read about the Arcanist and all of my personal understanding on the subject says that Consume Magic Items would be the first or second Exploit I take almost every time, next to Potent Magic.
It's not that "if you have zero desire to take Consume Magic Items". It's that you have the option to burn a spell for Arcane Points, whereas an Exploiter doesn't. It also requires the Exploiter to burn an exploit to have any real use with their Arcane Reservoir otherwise they have to been extremely limited on how they use it. From 1st to 11th level an Exploiter gets 3 exploits and Consume Magic Items will be a must out of the 3 they get.
Subnote: While I don't have the time to dig up the quotes at the moment, Exploiter can take Extra Exploit. The official line is, essentially, to check the content and not the label. Hexcrafter can take Hex feats, Exploiter can take Extra Exploit.
That's ok, but unless you or someone else links an FAQ from Paizo stating that you can take Extra Exploit with the Exploiter Exploit class feature when the Extra Exploit feat requires Arcanist Exploit class feature to take then it's ruled by RAW and in PFS that the Exploiter Wizard cannot legally take the Extra Exploit feat.
I'd love to say they could take the feat also, but unless there's been an official ruling then this gets thrown out the window.
Quick Study: As noted, Teleport was an example. Throw Dominate Person in its place instead. Or literally any spell in the book that the Arcanist isn't likely to prepare for general use.
As mentioned earlier, an Arcanist or Wizard should have a lot of situational spells on scrolls. If they focused on Mind Control with a few spells then an Arcanist needs to spend 2 Arcane points to respec that whole list of Mind Control spells. Wizard needs to spend 1 Arcane point per spell slot. I know what you're saying here, I'm just saying that you may be counting the Wizard's success in this department a little more than it should be.
Quick Study frankly seems like a poor in-combat option unless the circumstances have massively shifted. An elemental combat Wizard or Arcanist should have the ability to deal with situations like that on the fly.
Agreed.
I think it's obviously pretty tight. I would argue from the above discussion that wizards come out on top whenever they have the additional spell level (given most else is minutae, that is a big deal)... but that's only every second level. On the even levels, the arcanist comes out on top IMO due to the greater number of spells he can actually access.
So, on average, they're basically comparable.