Goblin Squad Member
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Arenas are the place settlements can go to be entertained. Eventually these will be modifiable structures that can be set up as gladiatorial arenas, race tracks, amphitheaters etc. Initially though arenas provide a place willing combatants can go to duke it out consequence free allowing for both training and sport.
There are two arena sizes. Medium and large (though it is very possible only mediums would be included in the MVP). The MVP arena includes a stage/battlefield surrounded by seating with a box for VIP spectators. Underneath the stands is the staging area which contains some practice dummies and possible trainers. The MVP arena provides 3 things.
1. Settlement members with appropriate permissions can toggle combat mode on and off. While combat mode is on all players in the stage section of the arena are flagged as "contestants" making them consequence free targets for all other players with the contestant flag.
2. The arena gives a bonus to the morale index of the settlement.
3. The arena provides training in the staging area equivalent to a fighter training facility one size category smaller.
Basically the intent with MVP arenas is providing players with the bare minimum tools they need to create their own events. They serve as a great place for PvP combat training, duels, and organized tournaments as well as giving a stage for roleplay events with combat mode is toggled off.
Expanding on the role of players who can toggle combat mode on and off, they now become "Arena Masters." Arena masters get two really cool things they can do to improve the fun of arenas.
Deployables- Arena masters can deploy traps, obstacles and other features into the arena to make fights more interesting or facilitate new event types. A few big deployable worth mentioning are checkpoints and timed objects.
Checkpoints can be set up so they register when a player passes through them and linked together so they are meant to be passed through in a certain order. This is particularly useful in building races and obstacle courses.
Timed objects are objects that will go off a certain amount of time after the arena master starts their timer. They can be on separate timers or the same timer. A good example of a timed object is a cage containing combatants or monsters. They may be triggered manually by the arena master or set to trigger at certain points during a battle if the arena master begins the timer at the start of the battle. Another instance might be a pit of spikes opening up at a certain point in a race that it's presumed the racers will be in their final lap to add additional flair and danger to the final lap.
NPC Combatants- Arena masters can create PvE challenges or add a bit of PvE into PvP events with the addition of NPC combatants. NPC combatants can be added to the arena and will attack contestant marked players. They come in four major forms each with different ways of getting them to fight in your arena.
All variants of creatures are captured by players turning them into inventory items the arena master can then deploy as desired either in timed cages or before turning on combat mode.
Humanoids - These are creatures such as humans, elves, goblins, ogres etc. Some of these creatures can be "captured" through the use of diplomacy, meaning you persuade them to come willingly to fight in your arena. Humanoids "captured" through diplomacy require a certain amount of pay each time they are deployed. They can also have a chance of giving a capturable version of themselves on their bodies when defeated in combat. This is the creature you defeated made capturable by being incapacitated. Capturing a humanoid through this method counts as slavery, and they don't have to be paid.
Animals - These are things such as wolves, bears, tigers etc. They can be tamed or captured. Taming works much like diplomacy for humanoids (or works off whatever taming system the game already had in place) though tamed creatures don't need to be paid. Capturing works the same as for other creatures.
Monsters - These are things such as rust monsters, manticores, and worgs. They can only be captured.
Undead - These are animated dead. They can either be captured or created by a necromancer. Neither captured nor raised undead must be paid.
Phase 2 Conclusion
The point of phase two is to give players the tools they really need to dive in and build their own arena content. Through props and monsters they can create a huge array of different events from more interesting gladiatorial events, to races where the contestants have to evade traps as they are chased by hungry worgs, to RP events and performances where the players can build their own stage.
It also creates the start of some arena related professions with players now able to sell their traps, obstacles, and creatures to arena masters.
Implementation stage 3 is arenas fully fleshed out. It adds some really cool elements that makes a large arena really something a settlement may base themselves around and people will travel from far and wide to take part in.
Matches/Timed Events - First is that there is now an official match system. An arena master can set events that occur at different times of the day or a set period of time after the end of the last event. They can preconfigure the obstacles, when the times are supposed to go off, what monsters will be added etc. and the arena will automatically follow their preset commands for a small fee (Because invisible commoners do the work of setting up the arena for each match.)
Events may be set as free for all events, predetermined team events (the contestants choose which team they want to join), or random team events (teams are chosen from the entrants at random).
They can either be given a win condition (first time to 25 kills or first player to complete 3 laps win) created as timed events (highest score at 20 minutes wins) or both (first to 25 kills or most kills at 20 minutes wins). This is where arena masters can really begin to create their own arena events on a par with those found in other MMOs. But rather than waiting months for the devs to create a new mode once the old ones get boring players can experience limitless different types of matches limited only by the tools available to and the creativity of the arena masters.
Renown - Renown comes in three (or possibly more) types. Gladiatorial renown, racing renown, and performance renown.
1. Gladiatorial Renown: Your renown in combat events both PvP, PvE, and hybrids of the two. NPCs you go up against have certain renown scores of their own based off the challenge they pose. Defeating opponents, both players and NPCs, in the arena gives you renown of the combatants defeated and the combine renown of the opposing side. Combatants released on set timers also give a renown bonus based off the strength of the combatants previously on the field if the timer for the release is short enough. For instance you might get a good bonus for killing NPCs released a minute after you had to another set of NPCs with a combine renown of 1000 but if the first wave only had 100 renown or the timer was set to ten minutes instead you might not receive a bonus. Gladiatorial renown is lost when you die based on the renown of the opposing side. The curve of renown is like PvP ranking in many games. It's easy to raise at first but eventually gains get very hard and loses become quite large.
There are bonuses to renown for performing crowd pleaser actions (based on perform skills) and finishing off (killing) or sparing defeated opponents when the crowd demands it.
2. Racer Renown: This is gained by placing in the top few places and lost by placing below those places. Whether a place earns or loses you renown is largely based on how many racers there are and what their renown is. So if there are 10 racers of equal renown you might expect 1st and 2nd to gain renown while 4th through 10th lose it but if you up that to 20 racers you might gain renown all the way through 4th place or if lowered to just two racers only the player who comes in first will gain renown and the other racer will lose it. There is also a bonus/penalty to renown based on the renown of the racers who finished ahead of / behind you. So a renown 10,000 racer in a race with 19 other 1000 renown players might actually find himself losing a lot of renown coming in 2nd because of the huge gap between his rank and the player in first even though most players would earn renown for coming in 2nd.
3.Performance Renown: Certain events such as plays or concerts may be set up where you use performance actions frequently. While these are mainly designed as RP events your performance checks will impress or disappoint the NPC crowd and allow you to gain or lose performance renown.
Spectators - In this stage NPCs come to watch at your events. NPC hype is built off the renown of those participating in the event allowing the arena master to set higher prices for attendance if there are a lot of high renown players/NPCs involved. The arena master can also undercharge for events granting a morale bonus to the settlement based on how much the undercharge. Throwing a bunch of cheap or events with a lot of renown involved is a great way for a settlement suffering morale problems to take the NPCs minds off their troubles. Because these events to generate coin or morale arena masters may pay well for high renown players to compete in their arena or for captured NPCs with high renown ranks. They can actually set the arena to automatically pay entrants based on their renown and boot lower renown players if a higher renown player tries to join (Making it smart for arena towns to have a medium arena for renown building and large arena for the main events.)
Betting - Betting comes in three forms. Player on player bets, player on settlement bets, and player on NPC bets.
Player on Player: The player places money against one side or the other at whatever odds. Another player may then accept that bet. If no player accepts the bet the full amount bet is returned to the player when the match begins or is canceled. If another player accepts then the full amount is returned if the match is canceled or the winner is given their winnings (minus a % based on the settlement settings that goes to the settlement) after the match ends. This automatic system ensures nobody can stiff someone their winnings.
Player on Settlement: The arena master places money on one side at certain odds. Players can bet against the settlement until all the money the settlement placed down is gone.
Player on NPC: Players can bet against any side at price based on the renown of the each side at certain odds and automatically have the bet accepted by an NPC. NPCs will only bet up to a small amount so having players throw matches to get money from NPC betters isn't really worth the cost to their renown.
Additional Features for NPC Combatants
NPC Combatants of all varieties except undead can now be trained to be stronger. Doing this ups the difficulty of defeating them and their renown rating. Defeats in the arena set them back a bit in strength/renown and additionally players who actually kill high renown NPCs get a huge bonus to their own renown and raise the settlements morale ensuring their is always demand for more NPCs and NPC training.
Killing humanoid and animal NPCs now moves your alignment toward evil. Additionally good aligned settlements cannot host to-the-death matches.
Certain NPCs can now participate in both races and performances allowing settlements that slot time for these events to no still generate some income if nobody shows, though payout for all NPC performances/races will be very small.
NPCs now have a fatigue rating that raises the more events they participate in without a break. Humanoids "captured" through diplomacy will flat out refuse to participate in events if their fatigue gets high enough and enslaved/captured NPCs will lose renown and eventually die if their fatigue gets too high.
Arenas allow a lot of customizable player made content as well as generating an entire new section of the economy and creating a both resource faucets and drains. Instead of developer created arena content as per WoW clones it gives the players the tools to create their own content as is fitting for PFO's model.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I love the idea and absolutely think it should be included.
The simplest version should be fairly easy to have in the MVP or at least added in early EE; it could use a modified dreadnought trainer building model (I think, that's the one with the courtyard?) and a local free-for-all PvP-zone where everyone who steps inside becomes a contestant. That would be a great addition to the game.
And with basically every component already included in the game, that should certainly be low hanging fruit from a devopment POV
Everything else could be added in later, as time and resources permit.
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Goblin Squad Member
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For an MVP idea:-
1. Building required
2. Monster-hunters who capture suitable monsters to use
3. Gladiatorial combat rules and discipline to systematize bouts
4. Betting
5. = 1.-4. = player entertainment
For example on 3. it might make sense to have a standardization of this role progression eg Soldier, Merchant etc?
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Goblin Squad Member
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For an MVP idea:-
1. Building required
2. Monster-hunters who capture suitable monsters to use
3. Gladiatorial combat rules and discipline to systematize bouts
4. Betting5. = 1.-4. = player entertainment
For example on 3. it might make sense to have a standardization of this role progression eg Soldier, Merchant etc?
Imho, what you're proposing is a step beyond MVP.
1. is necessary, though an existing model could be used with some modifications.
2. is optional; for MVP, PvP combat would be sufficient. PvE and related issues could be added later.
3+4. can be player-organized, does not necessarily require game-mechanics to run.
5. can be achieved :-)
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Goblin Squad Member
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For an MVP idea:-
1. Building required
2. Monster-hunters who capture suitable monsters to use
3. Gladiatorial combat rules and discipline to systematize bouts
4. Betting5. = 1.-4. = player entertainment
For example on 3. it might make sense to have a standardization of this role progression eg Soldier, Merchant etc?
Imho, what you're proposing is a step beyond MVP.
1. is necessary, though an existing model could be used with some modifications.
2. is optional; for MVP, PvP combat would be sufficient. PvE and related issues could be added later.
3+4. can be player-organized, does not necessarily require game-mechanics to run.
5. can be achieved :-)
You're right of course, it's a bit beyond MVP, but I thought if it's worth doing then it's worth integrating other systems into it atst hence monster-hunter trade/training springs up, gladiator role springs up, builders have another expensive high-grade building to build, idk the betting system is the idea the building draws business and punters so makes the investment worthwhile and feeds the economy, leading to competing venues outbidding, out-splashing each other...
... yeah imagination run wild, but integration as well as the actual activity itself of face-offs.
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Goblin Squad Member
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A link just incase anyone doesn't understand the reference in the title:
This is how you get high renown.
(Edit: The Arena in that clip is very close to how I envision a medium arena.)
One thing I forgot to mention is the morale boost from the MVP arena is meant to be quite substantial but be scaled way down or completely eliminated in Phase 3. It's a placeholder for the benefits you get for actively running an arena in Phase 3. Obviously though, a Phase 3 arena has the potential to generate a lot more benefits than the Phase 1 morale bonus if actively and well run.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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As I said on a similar subject a few months ago, I like the idea, but I have one big concern.
Obviously, some people will disagree, talking about IRL comparison and cultural relatism, but the fact is that death for entertainment is at best chaotic neutral, but probably more full on evil, in the context of the D20 alignment system.
Not that I have a problem with evil oriented mechanisms, but it should be integrated in a bigger plan to introduce player driven entertaining events for everybody. And it's a little hard, to come up with INTERESTING ideas for good oriented events.
(Yes, I know, some of you will be playing good characters even though they will consider this kind of events totally legit, great, but I'm talking about the vanilla good, not the exceptions)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Not all combat matches have to be to the death. Infact there are advantages to not running them that way both in terms of only having to partially retrain as opposed to fully replacing NPCs and player combatants losing less renown when defeated.
Races and performances of course don't have killing your opponent as an objective at all and while some traps and monsters could spice up a race you could make it equally interesting by building a high quality course.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I still think that it is something more adapted to chaotic and evil settlements.
Don't get me wrong, I hope very much that we will see this kind of systems, I just hope that we will have some variety to choose from.
As a simple example, I don't have any idea how to do it for now, but I would LOVE, to have the possibility to create some interesting to participate to religious events.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Andius,
I like how well thought out and detailed your Arena plan is, almost a template for other Ideascale entries to follow.
I will back this any way I can, I too would like to see this implemented and integrated (simple to complex) as to my knowledge this has never been done before in a fantasy sandbox MMO at that scale.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I still think that it is something more adapted to chaotic and evil settlements.
There's a bit of a trend to lump chaos and evil together when referring generally to "stuff that good people don't like". This is poor communication and indicative of sloppy thinking.
Evil is, basically, about indifference to (or delight in) the suffering of others. Chaos is about indifference to (or delight in distorting) the structure of society. Any given type of undesirable behavior might be one or the other or both- or perhaps neither.
There is nothing in the least chaotic about arenas in principle. I could see an argument for them being evil, but perhaps not when Marks of Pharasma are in play.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well the most classic arena, the coliseum, I would say was lawful-evil like the Roman Empire as a whole.
But when you take killing your opponent out of the mix then it becomes like a boxing or rugby match. It's true neutral. There is nothing good, evil, lawful, or chaotic about it.
There is actually a system for arena combat in Pathfinder I've played a round of. I remember the match was non-lethal (though my feral orc barbarian with an intelligence of 6 and strength of 22 had a hard time understanding that and the crowd loved him for it) and one of the players was actually lawful-good.
I feel that sets the precedent for the format. Non-lethal arena combat is not evil and does not preclude good aligned participation.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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There's a bit of a trend to lump chaos and evil together when referring generally to "stuff that good people don't like". This is poor communication and indicative of sloppy thinking.
Evil is, basically, about indifference to (or delight in) the suffering of others. Chaos is about indifference to (or delight in distorting) the structure of society. Any given type of undesirable behavior might be one or the other or both- or perhaps neither.
There is nothing in the least chaotic about arenas in principle. I could see an argument for them being evil, but perhaps not when Marks of Pharasma are in play.
What is poor communication/sloppy thinking is to accuse me of lumping chaos and evil together, which I obviously didn't.
Fight, battle and strength are mostly associated with chaotic deities. The god of these domains is chaotic neutral.
There is actually a system for arena combat in Pathfinder I've played a round of. I remember the match was non-lethal (though my feral orc barbarian with an intelligence of 6 and strength of 22 had a hard time understanding that and the crowd loved him for it) and one of the players was actually lawful-good.
I feel that sets the precedent for the format. Non-lethal arena combat is not evil and does not preclude good aligned participation.
As I already said there is always some exceptions, but they aren't relevant.
And no, a player character is not setting a precedent, an official NPC sets a precedent. And one exception doesn't make a general truth.
But whatever.
What you are both missing is that I am not saying that an arena should be forbidden to lawful good settlements, I am only saying that it should be part of a bigger plan about various player driven entertainment events.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well the point is that the official Paizo system for arena combat allowed the lawful-good character to participate in non-lethal combat. So that really does set a precedent. I'd link the module if I remembered the name.
Anyway have you read through the full idea? The arena already provides for races and entertainment events. It's also modifiable enough to allow creative players to come up with their own events. For instance you could make a race course so difficult to finish that it functions more like an obstacle course where the objective is mainly to finish at all and less how fast you do it.
Arenas could also eventually provide for the stereotypical past time of paladins. Jousting.
I think anyone who's watched the TV series Merlin can vouch for me that the arena was a central feature of Camelot which was a lawful-good town in all aspects except their unreasonable hatred of sorcerers. Many of the episodes revolved around non-lethal combat events that took place there.
Creating different structures is kind of redundant. Just make sure arena masters have the tools available to run the new event types.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Yep. I only watched the first episode although, but every people I know who saw it had the same impression, like Arthur is the popular sportsman kid with cool friends and Merlin is the lonely skinny nerd who wants to be friend with the popular kid.
But it's probably because the best TV show ever about Camelot is a French one, and that I know the entire scripts of most of the 240 4 minutes episodes. :p
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njoZqayGfsU
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Goblin Squad Member
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Eh. Not that it's really relevant to the topic but your friends told you wrong.
Merlin thinks Arthur is an ass and wants nothing to do with him but is prettymuch forced into being his servant. As the series goes on Merlin sees Arthur has many admirable qualities and comes to have true loyalty and respect for him. Most of the friends Merlin makes he meets without Arthur's help.
It's really nothing like you described.
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Goblin Squad Member
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As once discussed in a much older thread, I agree there needs to be some place where consensual PvP can occur without reputation loss. Whether attached to weapon training schools to help new players learn to PvP better, practice fields to keep the skills sharp, sparring pits for champions or contestants to square off (perhaps for a prize and a title), or bloody gladiator pits complete with betting, this would be a very nice addition with and could find a use in any alignment settlement.
Thank you to Andius for bringing the topic up again.
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Goblin Squad Member
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To bring Ryan's previous comments into the discussion:
This was a question asked in several places and I only answered it in the thread about the most recent blog post, and that answer was buried in the middle of several other responses so I'm sure some missed it.
Pathfinder Online is unlikely to have a standard mechanism for non-lethal duels. There is a place in the River Kingdoms that has a gladiatorial arena and I could see some development of that concept in the future (not promising, just saying I can see the potential).
Here's why dueling won't be in the game:
1: It's immersion breaking. How does a mage cast a non-lethal fireball or lightning bolt? Aren't "barbarian rage" and "non-lethal" mutually incompatible? How does one inflict "non-lethal" sneak attacks? What do crafters, harvesters, transporters or diplomats do in a duel that reflects their characters? In short, it's a system that really only appeals to a narrow selection of character types and that's a bad investment of design time & resources.
2: It sucks to be bothered about it. Sir Awesome is world-renowned. As he travels from place to place he's constantly asked to participate in duels. Since his player's idea of this character is "never runs from a fight", poor Sir Awesome is therefore compelled to accept these constant and disrupting challenges, or break his player's character concept.
3: It is a resource-drain with no reward. Combat depletes resources. Combat in PvE and PvP can produce a net positive resource reward. In a duel, all that happens is stuff gets consumed with no offsetting reward. Therefore only super-rich characters who just don't care anymore about money will do it. Don't talk about "honor". If you want honor, go out into the world and earn it the old fashioned way by slaying monsters, building kingdoms, leading armies or any of the other numerous options available in the game.
4: It devalues "real" combat. If people want to fight, take the risks that entails. Riskless combat means that "real" combat is less interesting. If the only way to test yourself against a live human opponent is to mix it up with death on the line, you'll care a lot more about the encounter than if it's just some theatrical performance without consequence.
5: It's likely to be one of those things that "Sounds Cool", but then "Nobody Does". Obviously mis-matched opponents won't do it. Anyone who is worried that others are tying to figure out how to beat them won't do it (why give your potential enemies a free tutorial on how you fight?). Players with character concepts that would otherwise avoid such confrontations won't do it (why are the two paladins fighting again?) Enemies won't do it (just getting into the same space is likely to lead to a "real" fight - that's the whole point of having enemies!)
6: The only people who are likely to really want do it are the same people who you probably find annoying elsewhere in the game system. Giving those kinds of people fewer things to keep them interested in the game may get them to quit sooner and go to some other venue that better caters to their little miserable hearts full of sociopathy.
Not all of his comments apply here, but I quoted him in his entirety to avoid issues of context.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Eh. Not that it's really relevant to the topic but your friends told you wrong.
Merlin thinks Arthur is an ass and wants nothing to do with him but is prettymuch forced into being his servant. As the series goes on Merlin sees Arthur has many admirable qualities and comes to have true loyalty and respect for him. Most of the friends Merlin makes he meets without Arthur's help.
It's really nothing like you described.
As I said I only watched the pilot, maybe I'll give it a shot !
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Goblin Squad Member
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Jazz,
I recall this post, but thanks for digging it up. In it, Ryan does state that an area/building like an arena might be considered. The bulk of his points are aimed at why duels likely won't be added to the game. If the area where this takes place (training field, dueling pit, arena, etc.) allows for reputation free kills, weapons and magic would be doing real damage and contestants would be killed. I'm not sure that should be as evil sounding as some might take it, since in a world where at least its "heroes" (characters marked by Pharasma) are instantly resurrected, death may be viewed differently than we view it. If we bring in the non-reputation affecting lethal results, many of Ryan's concerns about nonlethal dueling are negated.
1. Immersion breaking:
In this case, the damage is real, so all the issues with attacks magically seeming to do nonlethal damage would be nonissues. Likewise, the concern about other character types (crafters, diplomats, etc.) seeming out of place or having no skills to engage in a spontaneous duel would be nonstarters, since only people seeking training, practice, combat for sport/renown/coin would be entering such areas.
2. It sucks to be bothered about it:
Again, taking place only in a set location in a settlement, only those interested in the activity (either as combatants or spectators) would be present.
3. It's a resource drain with no reward:
Resource Drain - If such an area were used as a training ground (to teach new players the basics of PvP) or practice field (allowing skilled PvPers to hone skills with one another), I can see that participants might use low-end practice equipment. This means harvesters/crafters/refiners depleted some resources (and likely made some cash) making items for a product their users thought worthwhile. If this area were used for duels between champions (maybe company-vs-company or even settlement-vs-settlement competition) or actual gladiator/pit-fighting for profit, participants would likely use their best equipment. That equipment might be threaded or not, just as it would be in regular PvP or PvE encounters, so no real difference there.
Reward - In that the participants are all mutually interested, I think we could assume they see value in the activity. Brand new players are learning pvP skills, skilled PvPers are practicing new techniques, champions are winning fame and perhaps prizes for themselves and their sponsors, and gladiators win fame and perhaps a purse.
4. It devalues real combat:
This would be real combat with death on the line and possible equipment damage. True, no one in these situations will likely be looting your corpse, but besides that, you actually have some larger things at stake - loss of face in front of a crowd, loss of face for the group you are representing, loss of money if you placed a bet.
5. Sounds cool initially, but then nobody does it:
Given all the ways that this could be used, I think you would see real continued use of such facilities, unlike duels, which likely only feed the winner's ego.
6. Annoying people:
Again, being a set location, this does not provide an annoying person a way to take his annoying form of combat on the road, so to speak.
The largest concerns would be how you warn unsuspecting newer players about wandering into such buildings and being potential targets, and how to stop people from abusing the facility (using it as a lure for attacking whomever they wished inside or disrupting a scheduled practice or event). Specific coding for management of such a facility would likely be needed and may not be MVP for some time.
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Goblin Squad Member
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A reality it took me some time to learn from Low sec piracy in EVE, when everyone you fight is ready for that fight and you are all using essentially the same builds and equipment, it gets boring.
There is no risk in fighting in an arena. There is also no mystery or intrigue either. There are no meaningful choices, such as, is this target worth the reputation loss?
I'm not saying that this is a bad idea, it isn't. It is also not the best means for creating the opportunity for reputation neutral PVP.
Get Faction, SADS, Feuds and Wars in first and then arenas can come in later.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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A reality it took me some time to learn from Low sec piracy in EVE, when everyone you fight is ready for that fight and you are all using essentially the same builds and equipment, it gets boring.
There is no risk in fighting in an arena. There is also no mystery or intrigue either. There are no meaningful choices, such as, is this target worth the reputation loss?
I'm not saying that this is a bad idea, it isn't. It is also not the best means for creating the opportunity for reputation neutral PVP.
Get Faction, SADS, Feuds and Wars in first and then arenas can come in later.
I must admit that my best PvP experiences where the one with the loser (me or the other guy) thought "What the hell happened to me ?!".
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Goblin Squad Member
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Not to mention reputation consequences. Unless GW codes in an exception for arena combat the contestants will have to spend a lot of time in the wilderness before their rep recovers.
I think the idea would be a no-go without such an exception. You should also likely have a player warning pop-up of some sort to make sure players know they are entering a space where you can be killed without reputation loss so as to avoid misunderstandings.
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Goblin Squad Member
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A reality it took me some time to learn from Low sec piracy in EVE, when everyone you fight is ready for that fight and you are all using essentially the same builds and equipment, it gets boring.
There is no risk in fighting in an arena. There is also no mystery or intrigue either. There are no meaningful choices, such as, is this target worth the reputation loss?
I'm not saying that this is a bad idea, it isn't. It is also not the best means for creating the opportunity for reputation neutral PVP.
Get Faction, SADS, Feuds and Wars in first and then arenas can come in later.
I certainly understand and even agree with some of your points. Though the OP was about arenas, the other uses I mentioned above - training yards and practice fields - are the two I would like to see implemented most.
Though I have had several very experienced PvPers tell me that the best way to learn to PvP is in the middle of real combat, I've worked with new players enough to know that before they're thrown into that environment, they would like to train in a more controlled setting, so that they might to learn how to use their weapons, feats, etc. before their life is on the line. Likewise, I can see more seasoned PvPers still desiring a place to practice new maneuvers, spells, etc., also before clashing with real opponents.
In both cases, what these groups need is a way to practice with one another where, if they should happen to kill their sparring partners, they are not losing reputation for it. Why would you want to kill them if you're only sparring...because unless you do, you may not be learning how to make those killing attacks that will matter in real PvP. Unless there is a mechanic I am currently unaware of, there is no way to practice PvP without running the risk of damaging your reputation.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Jazz,
I had not thought of that. I suppose that might be possible, but given the possible expense (though we don't know how much influence will be required to declare a feud), I don't know if people will find it too costly for a friendly practice session. It's a system we would still need more information about to be sure. Thank you, though, for bringing it up.
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Goblin Squad Member
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A reality it took me some time to learn from Low sec piracy in EVE, when everyone you fight is ready for that fight and you are all using essentially the same builds and equipment, it gets boring.
There is no risk in fighting in an arena. There is also no mystery or intrigue either. There are no meaningful choices, such as, is this target worth the reputation loss?
I'm not saying that this is a bad idea, it isn't. It is also not the best means for creating the opportunity for reputation neutral PVP.
This is not meant to be a replacement for any form of Open World PvP.
Arena PvP is meant to cater to opponents looking for an entirely different style of play. I disagree that it's boring but it's certainly not something I'd like to do more than Open World Pvp. I think the MVP version should be added as soon as we get real settlements because it's low hanging fruit (And the early faces of Feuds, SADs, Factions etc. should already be in by that point) but I would agree leave out the more complex features of phases 2 and 3 until the Open World PvP features are already ironed out to a similar level.
The one thing I can say for arenas in Phase 2 and 3 is the sheer variety of content they offer will be very good for the game. People will get bored of rehashing the same content over and over forever (even if that content is player generated) so adding variety makes it so when you get tired of one type of gameplay you can go enjoy another. Player generated PvP arenas, races, obstacle courses, PvE arenas, PvP/PvE arenas, etc. makes for hours and hours and hours of content for those interested to enjoy.
I'm sorry I have no choice: Are you not entertained!! One of the best movies ever!
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Goblin Squad Member
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...there is no way to practice PvP without running the risk of damaging your reputation.Once feuding is in, we currently believe we'll be able to establish "friendly feuding" between Companies for practice, correct?
I think people have also bounced around the idea of joining competing factions and flagging "for the cause" in order to fight. That has the advantage of costing no Influence. My guess is that it might also allow the practicing combatants to complete faction missions and achievements.
Of course, that's certainly not possible before factions are in.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...there is no way to practice PvP without running the risk of damaging your reputation.Once feuding is in, we currently believe we'll be able to establish "friendly feuding" between Companies for practice, correct?I think people have also bounced around the idea of joining competing factions and flagging "for the cause" in order to fight. That has the advantage of costing no Influence. My guess is that it might also allow the practicing combatants to complete faction missions and achievements.
Of course, that's certainly not possible before factions are in.
That's a possible answer for some, though I'm not sure how many (given the possible price) that would wish to spend their hard earned influence for practice, even if they thought such practice might be handy. I still think it would be very useful to have a relatively simple mechanic to allow individuals within the same company, as well as multiple whole companies, to be able to practice with one another. I could see the value in a whole settlement being able to schedule war games to be able to better prepare for the real thing.
An "Ally" feature similar to the one we had in UO might be an easy mechanic. The company leader searches and finds the name of the other company he/she wishes to be allies with, the leader of the other company accepts, and bang, you have Rep free PvP for practice purposes. Someone abuses it...kick them out, or provide either leader the ability to toggle off the allied status. You'd only ally with groups you trust, so I doubt it would be readily abused.
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Goblin Squad Member
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An "Ally" feature similar to the one we had in UO might be an easy mechanic. The company leader searches and finds the name of the other company he/she wishes to be allies with, the leader of the other company accepts, and bang, you have Rep free PvP for practice purposes. Someone abuses it...kick them out, or provide either leader the ability to toggle off the allied status. You'd only ally with groups you trust, so I doubt it would be readily abused.
I've been arguing the same thing a long time but so far the outlined mechanics are that you have ADDITIONAL penalties if you kill an ally. I'm hoping that once this plays out in game awhile Ryan will see the problems with that and the merits of running it like UO and Darkfall did.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I'm sorry I have no choice: Are you not entertained!! One of the best movies ever!
Well I thought about that myself :
WITH THE LIIIIIIIIGHTS OOOOOOOOOUT, IT'S LESS DAAAAAAAAAANGEROOOOOOOOOUS !
HERE WE ARE NOOOOOOW... ENTERTAAAAAAAAAIN UUUUUS !
YEAH !
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I would fully support some sort of duel or arena system. I'm sorry that Ryan feels so put off by the idea, but I see it as an absolutely essential part of PvP training. It really is the best way to test builds and train soldiers in a controlled environment when you can observe their actions without being busy keeping yourself alive. Also, you can pause the combat when things go wrong and offer corrections.
As far as "immersion breaking", I find that to be a very misguided opinion. It was extremely common for warriors to practice in medieval times. No one just picked up a sword and went into combat. Training took years and whole societal programs and events revolved around it. In ANY war-stricken society, combat training is a HUGE aspect of that culture.
To leave out the ability to duel or have some sort of training is both detrimental to training new and/or weakers players, to testing out new combat techniques in a controlled environment, and to immersion itself!
Most games that have FFA PvP don't have penalties for killing a guild-member as that's considered to be an activity internal to the guild structure. So, most of the time we would train guild members in group battles without even needing a duel mechanic.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think I have said this before in another thread (too lazy to look up). But I can support a Gladiator type arena where it will of course be no rep loss battles. Bets could be placed on the side and special tournaments could be hosted by the Settlement with prizes to be won.
Of course, it would be up to the Settlement to make sure people are losing on purpose so they could win big behind the scene.