Sczarni Swindler Rogue Archetype - Any good?

[Secret Wizard]

Introducing the Sczarni Swindler.
I just finished making the data file for it for PCGen so I'm considering rolling one.

Pros:
- Good Will progression on a Rogue, -1 of a true Good Will class.
- Scaling 1/2 level bonus on potentially any roll, usable 3+Charisma times per day.
- No penalty for Feinting vs. non-humanoids (although only rules lawyers apply it).
- Small bonus to Bluff and Sense Motive to go with it.
- Able to use Sleight of Hand in an NPC's face.
- Able to retrieve hidden items as a move action.
- Free reroll, once per day.

Cons:
- No Trap features (easily offset with the Trap Finder trait).
- No Evasion. (Easily offset with the Improved Evasion Advanced Talent.)
- No Uncanny Dodge.
- Must have two options at hand to apply the 1/2 level bonus to any roll, can't decide which.
- Must do the latter as a standard action.

So what kind of build would this lend to? I am guessing a high Dex, high Cha build. The higher Cha allows for more uses of the Let Fate Decide feature and this gem: Underhanded.

You can walk up to an NPC, while Letting Fate Decide on Bluff or Sleight of Hand. If Bluff, make the enemy believe that there actually is a pretty birdie over that window for him to look at. If Sleight of Hand, take out your weapon right in front of his nose and hit him for max Sneak Attack damage. (Any ideas on how to make this deadlier?)
Since you can do this Charisma times per day, the high Charisma gets double dipped.

Also, high Charisma lends itself to Eldritch Heritage - either Rakshasa or Umbral [Wildblooded Shadow] bloodlines would be pretty good, I think. Umbral has an amazing lmproved Eldritch Heritage and a simply salivating Greater Eldritch Heritage... but I don't think the game will last long enough to see the latter.

Additionally, with Osyluth's Guile, you could be extremely hard to hit while fighting defensively, making you a very durable skill monkey.

Anyhow, due to the Dex (for Stealth, Sleight of Hand, Disable Device) and Cha focus, I was thinking of going Dervish Dancer or dipping one level into Swashbuckler or any of the new archetypes that grant Finesse and Panache, or perhaps Sanctified Slayer Inquisitor archetype for Slayer stuff and a Domain to qualify for Divine Grace.

What's your assessment of the archetype? Worth it? Any ideas on how to improve a build like this?

[Imbicatus]

It's a FANTASTIC class for intimidate builds. Use Let Fate Decide option 1: Attack or make a manuever. It's an attack roll, and you will have the bonus to attack rolls for a minute.
2: Make a Demoralize/Dazzling Display/Shatter Defenses intimidate check

Either way you mess up your opponent.

[Secret Wizard]

If so, it wouldn't be untoward to pick a couple of levels of Order Daring Champion Cavalier for Finesse, Dazzling Display, and Challenge. It would pay to go Small race for Taunt to open up skillpoints and get the Poker Face Bluff bonus on demoralize attempts.

Would the Rogue Talent that makes Sleight of Hand checks replace Steal combat maneuver CMB be worth it? It would be a two Rogue Talent investment for that and Improved Steal... gives you another option for Let Fate Decide.

[LoneKnave]

The class is held back by the decision having to be made as a standard action (also, just flip a coin) and the action being extremely specific as well as the bonus.

Pretty cool otherwise.

[Renegadeshepherd]

This is a wonderful archetype that is very unappreciated by the community but does have some issues. The biggest issue is that you should talk with the GM to make sure that there are plenty of chances to roleplay and preferably a few times where you as a great mouth could avoid at least some of the potential problems the group will face. If your GM does not like style of gaming then I would advise you to look elsewhere because your combat abilities will likely be subpar compared to even other rogue builds.

Second is u will need to decide what mental aspect of the game you favor. Most likely this will be charisma and a side of intelligence but wisdom should not be ignored.

Third.. Take fates favored trait.

Good luck and enjoy.

[Secret Wizard]

Awesome, thanks for the trait! I am thinking I would wade into battle performing the Let Fate Decide as I talk to the NPCs. There's no reason not to do it outside battle, nothing says you can't perform standard actions during RP time.

I like the idea of Dazzling Display combined with Taunt on a small race (likely Halfling).

Should I go for Eldritch Heritage or is that too greedy?

[Renegadeshepherd]

One more thing that I neglected to mention....

If ever a rogue could justify weapon finesse or dervish dance I believe this archetype was it. Dex is much more skill monkey friendly than any other attribute in the game as it relates to being able to fight in battle and not lose your skills. For example, dex adds to the second longest list of skills based on a single attribute, adds to AC, a save, initiative, and with one feat given to you for free as a talent you can melee in battle all in crammed in a single attribute.

I went this route and found it very beneficial. It allowed me to free up points that would normally go to strength and put them in areas that worked in more areas. I chose to go dervish but I would hardly say it was needed, just my own flavor. Nonetheless it would be very justifiable as its only one more feat that u can take for free agai. If your patient enough.

Finally, depending on ur final charisma score, I strongly urge you to look at noble scion feat as that could easilly be abused a couple of different ways depending on your vision of the character.

[Secret Wizard]

Could you expand on the Noble Scion thing? I'm not seeing much benefit for any of the options.

On the Dervish Dance thing, for a Rogue, I think it could be a good idea - I mean, you don''t really have the BAB to afford Power Attack or Piranha Strike. Am I missing something or is Dervish Dance a better option altogether than TWF, statistically?

(*drool* This feat...)

[Renegadeshepherd]

Secret Wizard wrote:

Could you expand on the Noble Scion thing? I'm not seeing much benefit for any of the options.

On the Dervish Dance thing, for a Rogue, I think it could be a good idea - I mean, you don''t really have the BAB to afford Power Attack or Piranha Strike. Am I missing something or is Dervish Dance a better option altogether than TWF, statistically?

(*drool* This feat...)

Well scion of war is usually the best choice so that you boost initiative but not amongst DX based characters. Honestly I didn't expect you to respond well to dex so that joke is on me :0. However, scion of lore isn't bad either even though your not a knowledge god. This equates to a +12 or more to the knowledge skills and this you can back up the wizard. Worthy of a thought even it doesn't fit ya.

Now for dervish dance. Statistically dervish and TWF are competitors but the strategy for how they get to the numbers are very different. TWF requires something like 4 feats to max it out and dervish takes 2. Dervish encourages defense through high AC where TWF encourages high offense. Dervish is SAD and TWF is MAD, etc , etc. in the end dervish should come out on the low end of basic damage output compared to TWF because of the number of attacks differential. Despite that though, dervish will come out almost the same damage because of the criticals, it hitting a little more often, and it adding its owns semi scaling damage. Conclusion: TWF stinks. Dervish is t great either but it does work well enough and with few enough feat taxes that is very viable for some niche ideas. TWF is just so limited none but a very few can even think about it.

[Sandbox]

how do you use the underhanded talent with a concealed weapon?
its a bit fuzzy for me.

Quicker than the Eye makes drawing a concealed weapon a Move Action...
during a surprise round you are limited to a Move or Std action?

how do you both draw and make the underhanded attack in the surprise round?

[Sandbox]

do you sleight of hand vs targets perception check to draw it unobserved as a moveaction before the surprise round begins, and then stab as your surprise round action?

i guess i'm unsure of how all these rules stack up?

[Secret Wizard]

Sandbox wrote:

do you sleight of hand vs targets perception check to draw it unobserved as a moveaction before the surprise round begins, and then stab as your surprise round action?

i guess i'm unsure of how all these rules stack up?

That's the gist. Walk up to someone, Bluff, Diplomacy or Intimidate to distract them, draw the concealed weapon against an opposed Perception check (with a penalty equal to 1/2 your Rogue level, and after 8th level you can reroll this if it is too low), then attack during the surprise round).

It is basically equivalent to stealthing your way up there but you can use CHA skills to reduce the Perception check and you get the Perception penalty to boot.

Later in the game, you are just using the Umbral Eldritch Heritage powers to trigger Underhanded.

EDIT: If it's the Surprise Round, all you can do is draw your weapon or attempt to Intimidate or Stealth (after you get Improved Eldritch Heritage). If your weapon was already drawn, just Spring Attack.

[Bigdaddyjug]

Secret Wizard wrote:

Could you expand on the Noble Scion thing? I'm not seeing much benefit for any of the options.

On the Dervish Dance thing, for a Rogue, I think it could be a good idea - I mean, you don''t really have the BAB to afford Power Attack or Piranha Strike. Am I missing something or is Dervish Dance a better option altogether than TWF, statistically?

(*drool* This feat...)

OMG I want that feat for my ninja in my home game. Guess I know what I'm buying next after the ACG and ISG.

[Secret Wizard]

I'm kinda on the fence re:Dex vs Str, I feel like I could really use those two feats, not just to get online earlier but also to quickly get Spring Attack (for surprise round fun).

Pondering...

[Sandbox]

can you palm a switchblade with sleightofhand?
can you take a swift action during a surprise round? (springwristsheath)

Edit! answered my own question!
DeftPalm

[pH unbalanced]

Sandbox wrote:

do you sleight of hand vs targets perception check to draw it unobserved as a moveaction before the surprise round begins, and then stab as your surprise round action?

i guess i'm unsure of how all these rules stack up?

I took Bladed Scarf as a weapon -- it's both drawn and in-hand and concealed at the same time.

[Secret Wizard]

Sandbox wrote:

can you palm a switchblade with sleightofhand?

can you take a swift action during a surprise round? (springwristsheath)

Edit! answered my own question!
DeftPalm

That's some Albert Brooks s@%&, man.

I'd love to do this with an Earthbreaker though.

[Sandbox]

technically DeftPalm doesn't have any restriction on weapon size, and its usable in plain sight...

your Sleight of Hand just has to beat their perception i guess?

a DM should probaby award some large circumstance bonus though

[Secret Wizard]

It really does pay off to pay a Rogue Talent to be able to Spring Attack during the surprise round.

[Kaiafas]

Don't mean to necro this thread, but I was wondering if a variation of this build ever got used and if so, how'd it go? What were the specifics?

What worked and what didn't?
How would you do it differently?
What was the most and least fun aspects about it?

I'd love to give the Sczarni Swindler a go and if someone had fun using it, I'll go straight ahead and make it my next character.