Looking to make a PFS legal melee two weapon fighting character. Do not know if the fighter archetype of two weapon warrior, a two weapon slayer or a two weapon ranger is the best. Or something else. Also what weapons give the best bang for the buck. Thanks.
Take a level of Brawler (Fighter archetype), two levels of Master of Many Styles to get Snake Fang and then Brawler the rest of the way. Far and away the best TWF I've ever seen. Go heavy into Dex and take Brawling armor and an Agile Amulet of Mighty Fists ASAP. Works better as a Goblin but still ridiculously effective as a Human.
I can post a build if you like.
I'd be interested in seeing the build as well.
i would like to see a build as well. many thanks
Take a level of Brawler (Fighter archetype), two levels of Master of Many Styles to get Snake Fang and then Brawler the rest of the way. Far and away the best TWF I've ever seen. Go heavy into Dex and take Brawling armor and an Agile Amulet of Mighty Fists ASAP. Works better as a Goblin but still ridiculously effective as a Human.
I can post a build if you like.
I might as well clarify why brawler fighters are good for TWF- they are specialists who can lockdown enemies and prevent them from escaping your full attacks.
Brawlers can combine the feat Stand still (which lets you use a maneuver rather than an Attack of Opportunity to stop movements that draw AoOs) and No Escape (a brawler ability that makes pretty much any movement away from you draw AoOs, including 5' steps). Together, these two allow you to stop enemies from escaping you. And with a huge scaling boost (1/2 your level) to the maneuver from a level 13 ability, you can even use this maneuver on big, beefy enemies.
That means that you can trap an enemies wizard from getting away from you so he can cast spell without the threat of bonking, and you can keep the beasties from gnawing on your archer and wizard. All while you put yourself into a position where you can deal devastating TWF full attacks. That is a rather good role to fill.
I will say though- you do not necessarily have to go with unarmed strikes, or even a dex build. The cestus is a fine close weapon with stats similar to a dagger (1d4, 19-20/x2), and it doesn't even limit you hands that much except when you need to do precise things like disable device. And it is perfectly possible to have a strength build and still qualify for all the 'good' TWF feats. Here are some example stats (20 pt buy):
STR: 16 (14+2) DEX: 16 CON: 14 INT: 10 WIS: 10 CHA: 10
You can wiggle things around depending on race (And I just left the mental stats alone; dump and spread points as you like), but in the end, 16 DEX is close to all you need. Add your 4th level ability score adjustment to raise it to 17, and you qualify for everything except Greater TWF (and really? An attack at BAB-12?). After that, you just need to invest in strength for more damage and goodness.
I'd be interested in seeing the build as well.
I'm omw to a PFS event but I'll post it tonight.
In addition to the excellent synopsis given by Lemeres, high Dex and Snake Style will give you a free AOO every time someone misses you in melee which is sick, Menacing Stance will shut down casters, Unarmed Strikes will make you immune to Disarm and Sunder, will allow you to inflict Nonlethal at will, you'll basically get Double Slice for free, you'll get Evasion and a nice boost to all your saves, etc.
I'd be interested in seeing the build as well.I'm omw to a PFS event but I'll post it tonight.
In addition to the excellent synopsis given by Lemeres, high Dex and Snake Style will give you a free AOO every time someone missed you in melee, Menacing Stance will shut down casters, Unarmed Strikes will make you immune to Disarm and Sunder, will low you to inflict Nonlethal at will, you'll get Evasion and a nice boost to all your saves, etc.
Oh, I am not denying the advantages of your build. But unarmed strikes can sometimes be a rather strong flavor for most people. It takes up your amulet slot, and as such prevents amulets of natural armor. Also, you can't just grab appropriate material weapons, and instead you have to rely upon a +3/+4/+5 amulet of mighty fists, which can be rather expensive.
Of course, with your dip into monk, you gain the rather peculiar ability found in the monk's unarmed strike to never have offhand attacks. That means that each one has full strength and power attack damage (which means you get free double slice, and gain a bonus that almost nothing else gives you on top of that).
Still, it is a trade off not to be made lightly, and suggesting alternative paths that are less heavily invested and theorycrafted makes the archetype less intimidating to those unfamiliar with it.
Oh, and just to mention- shields are also in the close weapons group (which is the only one brawlers get for their weapon training). So with shield bash, you could go Sword and board for a ton of AC. And if you feel cheezy, you could use 2 shield and shield mastery (removes TWF attack penalties when you use a shield and another weapon, and use the shield's AC enhancement as weapon enhancement too; VERY cheap way to get great weapons and AC on a budget, since shield/armor enhancements are cheaper than weapons')
All excellent points Lemeres.
And since you brought up shields, that's definitely part of my build. It's the only one I know of that gets to use a shield defensively and still gets it's full compliment of attacks since an Unarmed Strike can be anything from a kick to a headbutt - all without burning any feats.
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Here is the fighter version and here is the ranger version of the classic optimized two weapon fighter. Overall I would suggest the ranger, as you can get a higher DPR against select enemies, score more skill points, and have more tricks up your sleeve.
I thought Brawler can't multiclass with Monk because the Brawler was a Fighter/Monk hybrid. Pretty sure that was the case in fact...
I thought Brawler can't multiclass with Monk because the Brawler was a Fighter/Monk hybrid. Pretty sure that was the case in fact...
That is actually a bad habit of Paizo- reuse of names and phrases (even if they do sound cool).
We have been talking about the Brawler Archetype for fighters, not the brawler class from ACG.
This same problem comes up when discussing the beast rider- there is an archetype for cavaliers, and there is a feat for orcs and half orcs which gives them sturdier companion/mount options.
My favorite TWF is the Str-based Half-Orc Ranger with an Orc Double Axe (although I only went 6 levels then multiclassed to Barbarian). I will add that I almost never pick up Greater Two-Weapon on any TWF build.
My favorite TWF is the Str-based Half-Orc Ranger with an Orc Double Axe (although I only went 6 levels then multiclassed to Barbarian). I will add that I almost never pick up Greater Two-Weapon on any TWF build.
Ah, double weapons are great. IF you get past the fact that you need strength rather than DEX (which is not an issue for rangers, and I described how to do it stat-wise with other classes), then it is likely your best option.
This is because double weapons can be used either as a pair of weapons or as a single 2handed weapon. That means that you could 2 hand it when you do standard action attacks/charges, thus getting 1.5x str and power attack bonuses. It really does help your real damage per fight.
Sadly, most double weapons are exotic. So you either get a good one from your race (half orcs, as you said; dwarves; half elves can just grab an exotic weapon of their choice; tengu get swords in general; etc), or you spend a feat on an exotic weapon (Which is a rather good move for 2 handed goodness). Or you use a quarterstaff (Which has its own problems, obviously. I guess you could just grab some daggers for materials)
I'd be interested in seeing the build as well.
As promised.
This is a derivation of a build that was originally played through the Rise of the Runelords AP. The original version wasn't made for PFS, featured a Goblin who brings a little more to the table than a Human and included Crane Wing before it got that ridiculous nerf. As such, its not quite as optimal as its inspiration, but its been played in this form as well and the results have been devastating.
One caveat - this is the only build I've ever put together where I include gear as part of the concept. This is out of necessity, but fortunately the items you need most you should be able to afford by 4th or 5th level, so it shouldn't be much of a problem.
Human 2nd level Monk (Master of Many Styles) / 10th level Fighter (Brawler)
Monk levels taken at 2nd & 3rd
Attributes:
STR - 12
DEX - 17 (+2 racial bonus, +1 @ 4th, 8th & 12th level)
CON - 14
INT - 12
WIS - 12
CHA - 7
Traits:
Quain Martial Artist (+1 damage with unarmed attacks)
Well Hidden (+1 Will saves, +2 saves vs. Divination effects)
Feats:
1st - Weapon Finesse
1st - Two-Weapon Fighting
1st - Weapon Focus: Unarmed Strike
2nd - Improved Unarmed Strike
2nd - Stunning Fist
2nd - Snake Style
3rd - Snake Fang
3rd - Combat Reflexes
4th - Dodge
5th - Piranha Strike
6th - Weapon Specialization: Unarmed Strike
7th - Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
8th - Agile Maneuvers
9th - Improved Critical: Unarmed Strike
10th - Greater Weapon Focus: Unarmed Strike
11th - Stand Still [I](you also gain No Escape as a class feature at this level)
12th - Greater Two weapon Fighting
Skills:
Acrobatics (1-12)
Climb (2)
Escape artist (3)
Perception (1-12)
Profession: Instructor (2)
Stealth (1-12)
Swim (3)
Now ordinarily I would discourage a dip to get to the 'good stuff' of a class sooner, but we need to look at what those two levels of Monk are actually giving us:
The equivalent of the following feats for free:
Iron Will
Great Fortitude
Lightning Reflexes
Double Slice
Bludgeoner
It also gives us Evasion, a slight boost in unarmed strike damage dice and free, accelerated access to the Snake Style feat Snake Fang which, when coupled with Combat Reflexes, should grant you any number of free bonus attacks at your highest BAB. It grants us immunity to Disarm and Sunder maneuvers, offers a broader selection of class skills and allows multiple uses of the Stunning Fist ability each day. There's more, but that alone should sell it.
Now as far as gear, you will REALLY see an uptick in effectiveness once you land two items - the first is armor with the Brawling ability, ideally a Mithril Chain Shirt with the Brawling ability. The second is an Agile Amulet of Mighty Fists. Unlike magical weapons, the Amulet doesn't need an enhancement bonus to receive magical properties. Also very highly recommended is the use of a shield. As a Monk, you don't need both hands free to use two-weapon fighting and a shield is your best, least expensive option to jack up that AC so that you can explode with your bonus AoO's. Also pay particular attention to the way Standstill and No Escape work, as well as the danger Menacing Stance can be to opposing spellcasters.
At any rate, that's the short version of it. If you have any questions or comments, feel free to message me or let fly here.
EDIT: For what its worth, here's the character as I'd build it at 4th and 8th level...
4th level:
HP 34 (2d10+2d8+12), Fort +8, Reflex +8 (w/Evasion), Will +5
Armor Class: 23
10 +5 [Dex] +1 [Dodge] +5 [Chain Shirt] +2 [Shield]
Attack: +9/+9 w/Snake Fang & Combat Reflexes
+3 [BAB] +5 [Dex] -2 [TWF] +1 [Focus] +2 [Brawling]
Damage: 1d6+4 - Piercing, Lethal or Non-lethal
1d6 +1 [Str] +1 [Trait] +2 [Brawling]
Equipment: 6000
Brawling Mithril Chain Shirt +1 (5,000), Heavy Steel Shield, Cloak of Resistance +1 (1,000)
8th level:
HP 70 (6d10+2d8+24), Fort +13, Reflex +14 (w/Evasion), Will +10
Armor Class: 27
10 +6 [Dex] +1 [Dodge] +6 [Chain Shirt] +4 [Shield]
Attack: +15/+15/+10/+10 w/Snake Fang & Combat Reflexes
+7/+2 [BAB] +6 [Dex] -2 [TWF] +1 [Focus] +1 [Close] +2 [Brawling]
Damage: 1d6+12 - Piercing, Lethal or Non-lethal
1d6 +6 [Dex] +1 [Trait] +3 [Close] +2 [Brawling]
Equipment: 33000
Brawling Mithril Chain Shirt +2 (10,000), Mithril Heavy Steel Shield +2 (5,000), Agile Amulet of Mighty Fists (4,000), Cloak of Resistance +3 (9,000), Belt of Incredible Dexterity +2 (4,000)
As promised.Human 2nd level Monk (Master of Many Styles) / 10th level Fighter (Brawler)
Monk levels taken at 2nd & 3rdFeats:
1st - Weapon Finesse
1st - Two-Weapon Fighting
1st - Weapon Focus: Unarmed Strike
2nd - Improved Unarmed Strike
2nd - Stunning Fist
2nd - Snake Style
3rd - Snake Fang
3rd - Combat ReflexesIt also gives us Evasion, a slight boost in unarmed strike damage dice and free, accelerated access to the Snake Style feat Snake Fang....
I tried putting your build together in Herolab for a PFS legal build but it wouldn't allow me to pick up Snake Fang at 3rd level without getting Snake Sidewind first. This forced me to select Fighter (Unarmed Fighter) instead of Fighter (Brawler) to pick up Snake Style at 1st level as a bonus fighter feat. Then I was able to pick up Snake Sidewind at 2nd level (1st level Monk) and Snake Fang at 3rd level (2nd level Monk).
Obviously, this disrupts picking up all those other important feats at 1st and 2nd level. Do you think this is a flaw with your assumptions on how you can pick up Snake Fang early or do you think this is a bug in the Herolab program?
Use your second monk bonus feat, not your third level feat. Masters of Many Styles can ignore prequisites on style feats once they have the base style.
Use your second monk bonus feat, not your third level feat. Masters of Many Styles can ignore prequisites on style feats once they have the base style.
That's exactly what I did because I knew the 3rd level standard feat would not work. Based on what you've said, I will assume that it's a bug then which is good news.
I really like this build. I would try to also squeeze in Boar Style at early levels to take advantage of the bonus 2d6 rend damage when you hit and the . Does anyone have any ideas on how this build could be adjusted to fit in Boar Style?
Use your second monk bonus feat, not your third level feat. Masters of Many Styles can ignore prequisites on style feats once they have the base style.That's exactly what I did because I knew the 3rd level standard feat would not work. Based on what you've said, I will assume that it's a bug then which is good news.
I really like this build. I would try to also squeeze in Boar Style at early levels to take advantage of the bonus 2d6 rend damage when you hit and the . Does anyone have any ideas on how this build could be adjusted to fit in Boar Style?
Gotta be a bug because the build is 100% legit.
It's pretty delicately balanced - you should have seen it before the Crane Wing nerf - but I suppose you could drop Dodge and Weapon Specialization? Not the biggest fan of Boar Style but you'd have all three damage types covered.
This character was played til 17th, so it's got more to it if someone wasn't worried about PFS.
