We have a Half Orc in our game who sometimes gets out of hand in civilized towns such as Sandpoint. He has improved unarmed strike. If he walked into a general goods shop and had some (inane) reason to attack the shop keeper with his fists would that shop keeper or the guards the shop keeper may call be able to tell if the Half Orc intended to kill or not based on whether he attacked using lethal or non lethal damage?
If there is an official ruling on this someplace, I'd love to have it pointed out. Barring that what makes the most logical sense as a house rule?
Yes, they should be able to tell the difference.
One is a normal punch, the other is likely something like a spin kick or attacking a joint to break it. The lethal damage is just that, an attempt to kill rather than just bruise.
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Assault is assault. A professional adventurer beating up a shopkeeper is going to go badly for the PC if he was using lethal or nonlethal damage.
It may be the difference between fines & banishment or death, but town guards tend to not look kindly on outsiders beating up citizens. And depending on the level of racism in the town, being a half-orc might make things worse.
No.
In the heat of the moment, when someone you do not know, tries to beat you up, you cannot know if they are trying merely to take you prisoner. In fact, it would likely not ever cross someone's mind that non-lethal was involved.
The shopkeep would be badly frightened. Further, even if he somehow kept his poop together enough to think "hey, he was just trying to beat my head in until I pass out", wouldn't he be angry and likely vindictive, keeping such an opinion to himself?
Half-orc's player needs to figure out how to coexist with others. Maybe his new half-elf bard will be more circumspect.
I will side with the people that most would not be able to tell the difference (how much HP damage have you had in your life?), but I will argue that authorities might not realize that lethal damage could have been intended.
Most people pull out cheap daggers when they want to kill each other. If you heard of a big tough biker punching someone at the bar, your first assumption would not be attempted murder.
Even if monks are a 'thing' in Golarion, they are extremely rare in the main areas the game take place in (the medieval European looking ones), and frankly a monk should not look too much different from any unarmed and unarmored civilian at first glance for the untrained eye. So the first assumption would probably be 'drunken brawl' rather than 'cold blooded murder'. That can of course change depending on how intense the beating is (broken bones are usually a bad sign), but it takes a special kind of brutality to make it an inescapable conclusion.
Still, even if the use of force seems less than it could be, you are talking about assault by..... well..... a 'green person'. Being the stereotypical brutish half-orc is not going to be good for the case here. I expect imprisonment or public flogging at the very least. And I doubt the NPC's in that town will want to deal with you and your party anymore after that.
Sandpoint is also a small place. I am sure that info would spread fast, and it may be a GM headache to alter the adventure, but I am sure he would be "uninvited" from the town, and that is the best response he can hope for. He may also be put in jail. You not want to do that, but it will let him know that he does not have plot immunity, and that consequences have actions. Yes, I am aware this may lead to him needing to make a new character.
Clearly PCs can tell the difference between when they take lethal and non-lethal damage, and adjust their tactics accordingly, so there is no reason why other characters in the game wouldn't be able to tell the difference as well. Lethal and Non-lethal damage are quite obviously different in how severe they are which is reflected in how quickly they heal. Non-lethal damage is bruising, minor cuts, etc. Lethal damage is serious wounds, cracked or broken bones and stuff like that.
You might not be able to tell what a person intends when they hit, but you certainly can tell what sort of damage they have inflicted. In our justice system the difference would probably be between assault and aggravated assault or attempted murder. How fine the lines between these things are, or if they exist at all, would depend on setting.
Also, even a person who does not have improved unarmed strike can inflict lethal damage with fists by taking a -4 penalty on the attack roll. So any moderately skilled warrior can easily kill a commoner with just their fists, not just monks and people with the improved unarmed strike feat.
I think it would be fairly obvious to the recepient of the punch whether it was lethal or non-lethal damage in terms of how they felt it. Realistically it probably shouldn't matter and at the very least should get him arrested/exiled form town. Worst case scenario is they think he was attempting murder and execute him.
Neither of these is good for the campaign.
Honestly, the player will probably need to roll up a new character. If I were the GM regardless of anything else that character wouldn't be continuing with the party.
Honestly, the player will probably need to roll up a new character. If I were the GM regardless of anything else that character wouldn't be continuing with the party.
This is another point. The other party members should be willing to cut him loose. Even if they don't really care about the town, that type of attention is not good.
First off, thanks for the comments everyone. I'm sure your insight will help our group come to a consensus.
Yeah, our GM is looking at how to react to this PC's antisocial issues. Thus far we've been able to break the tension before it gets to physical violence, but the group is tired of babysitting the guy.
We got to talking about it outside of the game and we wondered if a punch to the face nonlethal was somehow different then lethal.
BretI, in general the way our GM works the story elements of an attack is he asks "What do you do?" If the Half Orc doesn't say he is trying to break a joint or doesn't get a crit card calling for it, odds are it's going to be that punch to the face. Though I can see your logic, our group doesn't quite run it like that.
Imbicatus, you hit it on the head. Without metagaming we wondered if there was a distinction between nonlethal and lethal attack. Would that shopkeeper and witnesses only see a punch or is there something more. How the leadership of the town reacts depends on the distinction of lethality, and HP being abstract...
Anguish, I know that some things would show an intent for lethal means. Such as this Orc using a blade or trying to grapple and stuff the shop owner into his fireplace, my thrust was mostly how does one tell an unarmed attack that is lethal from one that isn't. I'm sure the shopkeep could be played to scream "He tried to kill me!" regardless of what type of damage was done, but how to tell for legal followup is something our group is trying to figure out.
Lemures, that is what we're dealing with. half orcs in our GM's world are second class citizens. Our more socially accepted characters have vouched for him so far, but he keeps inching to outright unprovoked violence. I for one plan to have my PC cut social ties with this half orc if it gets bad enough. My archer doesn't need to be run out of town or find he has a date at the gallows. The distinction between simple heat of the moment assault/murder attempt would probably be the difference between some jail/flogging/fines and dancing a jig at the end of the rope.
What I gather from your take is it all matters how much HP damage they take.
Wraithstrike, I'm aware for a fact if he pushes things too far and has to leave the group the GM will kill him via random encounter. No CR mercy for being a lone PC. We plan to have a intervention before then. While we like players to be true to their character, we don't need disruption. The player is a first timer. We want to show him that it isn't Skyrim where you can murder a town and give a few thousand gold to make everything ok.
Dave, You make sense but it's metagaming on some level is it not? Our GM may take some convincing, but you make sense based on tactical view and damage.
In case 1 somebody punches nonlethal, bruises occur. In case 2 they punch lethally, internal organs pop. In either case lets assume the shop keep is down. It's possible the first guy coup de grace's the shop keep while he is ko'ed when the second walks out after helping stablize the keep. So intent really isn't a factor via damage, the results are. I'm sure comments made via roleplaying will help with the laws case.
Claxon, indeed. Thus far it hasn't happened, the GM has asked "Are you sure you want to do that?" and the half orc backpedals or there is somebody there to save his bacon as far as escalation goes. We're done with that. Next session we plan to speak OOC about how the world works concerning this stuff again (as I noted the half orc is a new guy) and our PC's plan to speak to his orc in character as well. "We're done babysitting. If you get sent to prison or the gallows or simply have to sleep in the woods because you are not allowed in town, so be it."
We planned on explaining when it is socially acceptable to fight in town (bar fights, being mugged etc) and when not (the only other half orc in town collects trash and is embarrassing to your race because his job is crummy,or somebody stared at you funny.) We also had to figure out this lethal business because killing people raises eyebrows.
I'm doubtful he'd get a chance to roll up a new hero. If he doesn't catch on this will end up being as much a table issue as it is an in game one.
Thanks everybody again for your takes on this. It'll assist in our groups discussion about actions and consequences.
Wraithstrike, I'm aware for a fact if he pushes things too far and has to leave the group the GM will kill him via random encounter. No CR mercy for being a lone PC. We plan to have a intervention before then. While we like players to be true to their character, we don't need disruption. The player is a first timer. We want to show him that it isn't Skyrim where you can murder a town and give a few thousand gold to make everything ok.
Yes, it is much more like demon's/dark souls. There, you have to keep your murderous impulses in check until right before the final fight, where you murder everyone for their unique items. Before then, you don't touch no one since their services will be forever barred from you.
The only exception is where you stab the obviously evil guy that is going to murder NPCs. For much of the same reasons.
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Anguish, I know that some things would show an intent for lethal means. Such as this Orc using a blade or trying to grapple and stuff the shop owner into his fireplace, my thrust was mostly how does one tell an unarmed attack that is lethal from one that isn't. I'm sure the shopkeep could be played to scream "He tried to kill me!" regardless of what type of damage was done, but how to tell for legal followup is something our group is trying to figure out.
Well, yeah, if someone comes at you with a greatsword and keeps whacking you with the pommel, it's evident they aren't trying to kill you. If someone comes at you with a spear and keeps using its shaft to club you, again it's evident they aren't trying to kill you.
What happens though when someone you don't know comes after you with a baseball bat and start pounding at your ribs and head, and won't stop?
Are they trying to kill you? Does it matter?
See, enough non-lethal becomes lethal. Could be one crit from dead. Accidents happen. When it comes to striking someone, there's never really non-lethal. There's only "I hope I don't accidentally kill him."
We see too many movies with folks getting hit over the head with vases or the like and just passing out. Because people somehow just magically know how much force to use to knock a Bad Guy out without crushing a section of skull and doing permanent brain-damage? Yeah, no. I personally would be VERY frightened to have to try and hit someone without accidentally killing them.
Your half-orc friend isn't in control of himself. If he's willing to beat someone up Just 'Cuz, really, how can you (or anyone else) be assured that there's a magical line right before kill someone Just 'Cuz that he won't cross?
I don't think in a bar fight or random fisticuffs encounter that a shopkeep could tell. Again, I agree that in some circumstances there would be signs, but mostly that deals with weapon type. Fists... I just don't see it.
It may be time to talk to the player and discuss that the game is a cooperative one, and that when someone goes off the rails so wildly, it's disruptive and you've got a year worth of playing RotRL ahead of you that predicates on being heroes, not pariahs.
As for a lethal attack vs a nonlethal attack I think you could tell. If I just try to punch you in the face I am likely not trying to kill you. If I aim for the temple, throat, or other vital area, it is safe to assume your life is not important to me.
Now I know the game does not have called shots by the normal rules, but I would think someone fighting to injure and someone not doing so would be easy to tell apart.
As an example I might use the side of my sword or the pommel instead of the sharp end, and/or I may go out of my way to avoid serious damage.
Ah, yes, Ven Vinder - the downfall of many a PC! :)
On a slightly more serious note, if the situation gets out of hand enough that a flogging is ordered by the authorities, then I would suggest not just hit point damage but also some form of damage and/or drain to at least one physical ability score.
The damage will eventually heal on its own, but healing the drain will need the good graces of either the party's cleric or the town priest. That could be something in-game to hold over the offending character's head.
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I would not suggest making up rules like that. Just talk to him OoC, handle it in game. If neither of those work then GM Fiat rules won't either.
I would fluff it as normal (nonlethal) punches might leave a mark.
But lethal unarmed strikes will not only leave marks, but potentially break bones of weaker adversaries.That being said; it's not necessarily intention to kill unless he got incredibly ruthless and hit the victim multiple times in which case, even if he wasn't intending to kill, he should be removed from the public for safety reasons.
....heal check?
Hey, it makes sense. If you are going to make accusations that someone meant to deal lethal damage with something that usually doesn't, you would want medical opinions, right? And heck, besides healing, the heal skill is actually meant for these kinds of things (as well as torture, but that is neither here nor there) where you try to tell the nature of a wound.
"oh, these don't look too bad. I would hardly say he was trying yo kill you, you big baby! Now, take 2 of these and call me in the morning".
Of course, that is, assuming that things are done 'right'. A well intentioned cleric could easily destroy such evidence, you would look bad if you denied the victim such care for your investigation, and I may be vastly overestimating medieval investigative techniques.
Plus, again, we are talking about a....'green' person. Even if the standard procedures are designed to actually do proper investigation, that only works when the guards actually use them. I hope his AC is good, since I think they might throw the book at him.
Anguish/Wraithstrike, I understand with weapons how one could differentiate via alternate uses of said weapon. (flat of blade etc) I'm curious in that punches look like punches (unless flavor is brought in via description.)
Anguish, I'm with you the social aspect of it. We plan to discuss it. If he still wants to beat up non hostiles I suspect it won't be long before Hemlock and a sizable posse comes calling.
Wraithstike, We definitely plan to speak of IC/OOC conflicts. I'll bring up Wolverine as my example. He's grumpy and not a nice guy, but he works well enough with others not to drag his party down.
Pancreas, Depending on severity of the beating I'm thinking that his punishment will be anything from some jail time and fines up to hanging. If he was banned from town after that wouldn't surprise me at all.
Rub Eta, Ven does indeed have the means to whup on a low level NPC. We're all edging past him in level though.
Bellona, I hope we'd just use damage. Drain would just a bigger drain on the groups resources. The half orc is useful outside of town. I'm thinking the embarrassment of being "spanked" might be the worst part of it for him.
Lemures, you hit it on the head as far as I'm concerned. I think I'll bring up that the victim, witnesses, experts and the like should be able to make heal checks with bonuses based on amount of damage done. It's a nice way to make taking heal more viable.
Thanks again to everybody who chimed in.
Anguish/Wraithstrike, I understand with weapons how one could differentiate via alternate uses of said weapon. (flat of blade etc) I'm curious in that punches look like punches (unless flavor is brought in via description.)
What I am saying is that you can't directly tell when the punch is thrown, but I know in real life WHERE you hit someone can tell intent. Me giving you kicks to your legs, and punching you in the stomach is very different from aiming for a shot to the temple or throat. It only takes one of those to kill someone. In other words you can tell after the punch is thrown what the likely intent was. Flavor is not written in, but most of us with a decent amount of martial arts knowledge which I think many PC classes have would know. So would some NPC's not that it matters because assault, still gets you thrown in jail, especially as an outsider(not from the town).
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Heal check (DC 10-15) after the fact should be able to distinguish lethal from nonlethal damage, and maybe a Perception or Sense Motive during the fight (DC 20). However, as Anguish pointed out, deal enough non-lethal damage and it becomes lethal damage. In fact, since a first level commoner has about 4 HP, a first level martial PC with an 18 Strength deals lethal damage with the first punch. I had a character accidentally kill a low-level caster with a single "nonlethal" punch.
Definitely talk to the player OOC. If he doesn't understand the brutality of his character's actions, it might help if you explain more vividly not just the consequences for his character, but the physical consequences of his attacks. Depending on damage dealt: split lip, blackened eyes the next day, nosebleed or broken nose, spitting out blood or teeth, broken jaw, or cracked ribs. (If he wants to play a thoughtlessly brutal character you'd need to establish this isn't the right AP and/or table for that.)