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So, I was looking at the "Adopted" Social Trait, which took me to looking at Race Traits.
I was looking into giving a Crossblooded Sorceress the "Undine Loyalty" Race Trait, and pair it with the "Escape Route" Teamwork feat to better ensure survivability(/madeupword).
My question is: Using the "Adopted" trait, Am I allowed to use Race Traits for Undines--or any boon race for that matter--even though I do not have the boon to create a character of that race?
Just want to make sure before I go setting it in stone. Thanks!
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LINK
More specifically, no. You do not have access to items from those races without a boon, as mentioned on the AR with respect to the Adv. Race Guide.
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If you don't have the boon, you can't use the section of the book for restricted races. This applies to traits, feats, equipment, and spells.
Close, except this tidbit.
Racial equipment and magic items can be purchased and used by any race as long as the specific item permits it (for example, only halflings can purchase and use solidsmoke pipeweed).
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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If you don't have the boon, you can't use the section of the book for restricted races. This applies to traits, feats, equipment, and spells.Close, except this tidbit.
Racial equipment and magic items can be purchased and used by any race as long as the specific item permits it (for example, only halflings can purchase and use solidsmoke pipeweed).
Just because it says in the book that they're available to everyone doesn't mean they're available to everyone in PFS. You must still have a copy of a race boon for Undines before you can use Undine-specific equipment. That's how it's written in additional resources.
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If you don't have the boon, you can't use the section of the book for restricted races. This applies to traits, feats, equipment, and spells.Close, except this tidbit.
Racial equipment and magic items can be purchased and used by any race as long as the specific item permits it (for example, only halflings can purchase and use solidsmoke pipeweed).
Ah, I must have overlooked that line in AR. I was specifically thinking of Snag Nets, as they are not legal because it's from the Strix section of Chapter 3.
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Uh, that's a quote from the Additional Resource page, not the Advanced Race Guide.Just because it says in the book that they're available to everyone doesn't mean they're available to everyone in PFS. You must still have a copy of a race boon for Undines before you can use Undine-specific equipment. That's how it's written in additional resources.If you don't have the boon, you can't use the section of the book for restricted races. This applies to traits, feats, equipment, and spells.Close, except this tidbit.
Racial equipment and magic items can be purchased and used by any race as long as the specific item permits it (for example, only halflings can purchase and use solidsmoke pipeweed).
This.
The AR says you can buy and use any racial equipment or magic items as long as the equipment itself isn't limited by race in the equipment's text.
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All righty, looks like I will have to forego this aspect of the character and go with something else. Thank you all for the help!
I wish I had boons to trade, because I'd REALLY like an Undine Race boon. :( Still being fairly new to PFS, I don't have anything to offer.
Offer to trade people official Paizo products. Never buy a boon for cash, since that's really scummy (and possibly disallowed), but it's generally considered fine to trade official Paizo products (books and the like) so you're still supporting the company.
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With respect to the skilled OPs, James Jacobs replied on this issue in 2013 and indicated that it doesn't matter what race RACE traits come from when using the Adopted trait as long as they are approved for use in PFS. So, feel free to choose a trait from any race that is approved for PFS, whether or not it typically requires a boon.
Also, logically speaking, if you couldn't choose a RACE trait from an approved, albeit boon, race without having that boon in the character's chronicle stack, then there would be no way to use it with the Adopted trait, since the Adopted trait requires that the RACE trait come from a race that is different from the character race.
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Zan, you don't need to (and probably shouldn't) necro past threads to answer the same question that's being asked in a current thread.
In this case, now there's three threads discussing the same point. The forum doesn't need to be clogged up with that sort of stuff.
James Jacobs is not a direct PFS guy though. That would be Mike Brock. Possibly John Compton.
Heck, as pointed out innumerable times, James isn't even a 'rules guy'.
And even so, that linked post does not say anything about "whether or not you have a boon". By default there is a specific list of allowed races. There are a handful of non-allowed races that have special boons allowing exceptions to this. This does not make those races 'allowed for PFS'.
-j
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With respect to the skilled OPs, James Jacobs replied on this issue in 2013 and indicated that it doesn't matter what race RACE traits come from when using the Adopted trait as long as they are approved for use in PFS. So, feel free to choose a trait from any race that is approved for PFS, whether or not it typically requires a boon.
This is where the crux of what you think your post says sort of falls apart...
If you do not have a race boon for racial traits from the ARG, then the traits are NOT approved for use in PFS for that character.
The Additional Resources guide is what tells you when an item is approved, and sometimes, such with the ARG, there are caveats you must take into consideration before you can use such options. You also must own the resource to take such a trait as well.
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We're suffering from misinformation again (one of the reasons necroing old threads is a bad idea).
If you do not have a race boon for racial traits from the ARG
Two things:
1) it's "Race Trait", not "Racial Trait". I understand you know the difference, but every time someone mistypes their answer it spreads more confusion.
2) the ARG does not contain a single Race Trait, so implying that it does only hurts the discussion further.
(I'm not replying as an attack on you, but this misinformation is annoyingly common)
my character could not get any of the Goblin traits/feats because I needed a Goblin Race Boon to gain access to them
That's actually not the reason, and the real reason matters. The Additional Resources document has a similar "race restriction" clause for Goblins of Golarion to that of the ARG.
Only legal goblin PCs are allowed to choose anything from this book.
Using the goblin restriction as a basis for disallowing other Race Traits invalid.
Currently, if you want a Race Trait (via Adopted) from Blood of Angels (Aasimars), Blood of Fiends (Tieflings), or Blood of the Night (Dhampirs), as well as a few other race splatbooks, you're good to go.
TL;DR you're only restricted by what the Additional Resources document calls out.
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What we would need in order to prevent ppl from being adopted by Aasimars (for example) would be to add a race restriction clause to every splatbook in the Additional Resources (or an official declaration that such a practice was illegal, going forward).
And I doubt Campaign Leadership wants to do that.
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We're suffering from misinformation again (one of the reasons necroing old threads is a bad idea).
If you do not have a race boon for racial traits from the ARGTwo things:
1) it's "Race Trait", not "Racial Trait". I understand you know the difference, but every time someone mistypes their answer it spreads more confusion.
2) the ARG does not contain a single Race Trait, so implying that it does only hurts the discussion further.
(I'm not replying as an attack on you, but this misinformation is annoyingly common)
You're right, I apologize.
I was thinking something else and typing without fully going through the thought process of what was in the book. I definitely do not wish to add to the confusion between race and racial traits as I know how often that does come up.
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(one of the reasons necroing old threads is a bad idea).
Respectfully, what's a bad idea is arbitrating the efforts of others via the mistaken assumption that users will only find content in exactly the one location that you deem to be the most appropriate in a world where everything is driven by random access user searches, search engine links, and random contributions.
You're seem very quick to apply the "necro" pejorative and present the impossible scenario of tackling all old topics. More realistically speaking, incremental improvements are always possible in long-standing compilation archives, expected as a consequence of the passage of time, and generally benefit the user population and archive integrity. If content remains in use long enough to see the need for incremental corrections and improvements, it's probably a good sign.
I posted here because I searched for a long time looking for a formal answer to this question and would like to save others the time that I lost. Also, if the answer were very easy to find in a single location, then presumably, the 2 threads on this issue (which never mentioned the JJ content I linked above) would have never come into existence (or would have been resolved more quickly).
If paizo wants to fix this issue and add something to the accepted central repository (FAQ), that would be great! I encourage the creation of a very clear FAQ items to help improve user understanding, such as:
"The Adopted trait allows a PC to use a RACE trait from any race approved for Pathfinder Society play (providing the chosen trait is also approved for play). It does not require a boon for the adopted race in the character's chronicle stack. Note that Adopted+Race Trait is equivalent to taking a single trait."
...and maybe it should also include:
"For approved races and any restrictions, see the Additional Resources (link) and the latest copy of the Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play (link)."
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That would be a rules change.
Not an FAQ.
Right now, currently, at this moment, you can use Adopted to pick up Race Traits from many disallowed races, including Aasimars, Tieflings, and Dhampirs (as I mentioned earlier).
If it is your desire to change that, it would behoove you to create your own "petition" thread and garner support for it. It has been done before, and with success.
But, the worst method would be to make a tangent comment about doing so in a necro'd thread, after other, more current threads were readily available, and where you could have also brought new evidence to light.
(though, as someone else pointed out elsewhere in one of these threads, JJ is self-admittedly not a "rules guy", nor is he part of the PFS team, so in this case it carries little weight)
And I say these things in an attempt to help you. Personally, I have quite a few FAQs under my belt, including the most FAQ'd question in Paizo's history.
So, although I may disagree with what you're doing, you could at least listen to suggestions about how to go about doing it. Forum etiquette is a thing, and you're (self-admittedly) new.
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I have a question, in Bastards of Golarion it says, "The traits on pages 4-13 and 28-29 are only legal if your character is of the same ethnicity as the section with the trait." So if I own this resource could my half-orc take a ifrit race trait using adopted?
The specific trait is Fiery Glare, I'm just trying to make sure everything is legal before I commit to buying the source.
Just wanted to say that I'm (personally) not ignoring you. I just don't own that source.
Venture-Lieutenant, Indiana—Martinsville
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I talk about the Race/Racial traits (whatever they are called in the product that presents them) in the Goblin companion book, not the inherent Race/Racial traits (However they are called in the ARG) that take the place of other abilities normally given to the race's write up.
The Additional Resources specifically points out that only those with Boons to play the Race can get the (Half - Feats) traits in the pages of the companion books. It is pretty much universal.
My main point is that usually Adopted only can get the Core races (and maybe the approved races at the time, like the Tengu) and that the traits for other races are restricted by the Addition Resources.
EDIT ADDITION - To be specific, Addition Resources for Goblins of Galorian specifically states the need for the boon, whether or not the actual character is a Goblin or not.
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That would be a rules change. Not an FAQ.
It seems like hair-splitting to me. If people ask a question frequently, it is, by definition, a frequently-asked question. If the answer or FAQ clarifies the rules that are unclear or creates a necessary rule where one is unstated, then it becomes a rules clarification or change in the context of an FAQ. Hasn't that already happened multiple times?
I have advocated for clarity for the Adopted Trait question and have found what I was seeking, at least for now and added pointers where necessary. And, it would be an extremely simple matter to create a formal answer/FAQ/rules change or whatever is required from the existing content and discussion. It shouldn't take years and it doesn't require a new process. If it includes a rules reference - great - it will be as a matter of course. If not, great. Then it's just a stock answer to clarify the significant ambiguity.
But, the worst method would be to make a tangent comment about doing so in a necro'd thread, after other, more current threads were readily available, and where you could have also brought new evidence to light.
See above. Your reply reflects personal preference vs. the greater long-term utility of improving the compilation archive for others trying to find the same answer through random access vectors. There's no need for you to try to exert control over how that happens.
So, although I may disagree with what you're doing, you could at least listen to suggestions about how to go about doing it. Forum etiquette is a thing, and you're (self-admittedly) new.
I have listened, appreciate your feedback, noted your status, and let's agree to disagree. Respectfully, if paizo were concerned about thread necro, they would lock or archive/remove all threads older than 1 year. If you think it's a serious problem, maybe create a petition to lock old threads vs. diluting and detracting from legitimate content contributions with necro rebukes. Otherwise, try not to worry about it too much and be happy. ;)
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What if I have a race boon? Can only the one character with the boon use the feats/traits/etc?you can use that boon to either make an undine or an "adopted". Total of one. Both have to be new characters, of course.
Incorrect, regarding Adopted.
There is nothing written within the text of the boon, or an additional statement by Campaign Leadership, that states that a Race Boon can fulfill such requirements for a character of a different race.
Race Boons only allow you to create a new character of said race. That's it.
Adopted can be used to grab a Race Trait from any legal source, barring an Additional Resources restriction (such as the one for Goblins of Golarion).
Understandably, many ppl are confused on this issue.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Indiana—Martinsville
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I do believe that other races are restricted by the Additional Resources as well, like the Catfolk and others. Some of the more common ones likely are not restricted like the Goblins and such.
I would do what I did, look at the specific source and see what it says. Likely, the ability to use Adopted to get Traits from Aasimar, Tiefling, the elemental races, and some others will be ok, but Goblins and some others that doesn't have or has limited amount of boon are more restrictive in the Additional Resources than the other, more common boon races.
The only races I needed and looked at was Goblin and Gnome. Now that I can take Race Traits without having to worry about a secondary category (Because of Ultimate Campaign), I now have a Tengu with Adopted (gnome) with Etymonligist. (Languages are good)
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It is indeed a Social trait, but...
Although the traits presented below are broken into several different categories, all are considered gnome racial traits.So... yeah. According to this, and correcting for poor terminology (sheesh, even Paizo is referring to them as "racial traits" in older books?) the count as race traits, and thus would be valid choices for Adopted (that paragraph even continues on to explicitly say as much). The question, then, is whether you could take a Social(/Race) trait with Adopted, since it is a Social trait itself. Personally, I'd think no category of trait would better fit the spirit of the Adopted trait more than Social, but that's something that is best left to a separate thread in the Rules Questions forum.
... I do not have nearly enough alcohol on hand for this headache.
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There really are no conflicting rules here, though.
Everything fits together logically.
Although these sorts of questions may be "frequently asked", that doesn't mean we need an FAQ about them. FAQs are meant for truly ambiguous circumstances.
General PFRPG Rule:
Adopted can be used to select a Race Trait from a different race (regardless of sourcebook)
Specific PFS Rule:
The Additional Resources document restricts Race Trait access from a small selection of sourcebooks.
That's it.
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...whether you could take a Social(/Race) trait with Adopted, since it is a Social trait itself.
Adopted is a proxy trait. Adopted + the race trait you select count as a single trait, so it doesn't matter what type of trait you select. It doesn't represent taking two of the same kind of trait.
That's it.
I'm not convinced. There remain questions that need to be explained as part of a FAQ entry, since Adopted functions as an override trait that is a potential source of rules conflicts and ongoing player uncertainty.
For example, People of the North and Bastards of Golarion place ethnicity restrictions on the legality of race traits which make no sense for Adopted, because the whole point of Adopted is that the character taking the trait is not of the same ethnicity/race. So, in that context, the same kind of reasoning would apply to Goblins of Golarion, which makes a similar statement about legality/access relating to the ethnicity of the character, where Adopted is a race trait override. Further, Boon language is the same - only legal if you have the boon, but that restricted legality is not relevant for Adopted, since the race is approved for play and seemingly open to Adopted's proxy access.
So, right or wrong, I don't think I agree with your assessment about which sources and races are legal to use with Adopted. Again - FAQ: In Pathfinder Society, which races are legal to use with Adopted? There is the JJ answer of approved races (seems pretty good) or hopefully a formal paizo answer that might range from a list/subset to "all of them". But, in any event, if the JJ answer is not good enough, then a formal FAQ including a list of races and specific rules clarification would be extremely helpful.
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I think we've told you a few times now that the JJ comment you're clinging to has no bearing in PFS. It's an old comment, much has been released since he posted it, and JJ isn't, nor has he ever been, a part of the PFS team.
You're making this more difficult than it really is. The general and specific rules I outlined above work fine. It covers both Bastards of Golarion and Goblins of Golarion.
What more clarification do you want, when it's already been laid out in front of you?
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Venture-Lieutenant, Indiana—Martinsville
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It is as was intended as far as Proxy trait is concerned, just not spelled out. It instead gives another (third) trait of the type that Adopted opened up.
My assertion that I can take Race (Social) traits with Adopted is because ultimate Campaign does not put Race Traits into the added sub-categories. Since it is the newest source, then it overtakes the older sources.
I could not take it before, which I would have for Krawford, my Tengu Monk. It is seriously wonky, as the traits marked Social would be the ones that makes the most sense to take with Adopted.
Looking through the Additional Resources, I came across this little tidbit.
-----paste
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game: Ultimate Campaign
Refer to page 10 in the Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play for rules on utilizing character retraining.
Note: Race traits are only available for characters of the associated race.
------end paste
Now, would one count as the race when taking Adopted, or does this take away the use of Adopted completely? Color me confused.