i think anti-paladin has several mechanical things that match, but you should forgo any of the more paladin stuff. like the ability to carry diseases but not be effected by them is cool.
EDIT: lightbringer, can you tell me what my next up coming class is?
Alchemist/Antipaladin sounds abit more Apropos.Hmm... but would I be able to still have the Plague Doctor be "any nongood" if I changed the MCA to Alchemist/Antipaladin?
Yes you could, just not any good.
i think anti-paladin has several mechanical things that match, but you should forgo any of the more paladin stuff. like the ability to carry diseases but not be effected by them is cool.
EDIT: lightbringer, can you tell me what my next up coming class is?
After your Dragonrider its
Possessed Scion – Bbn/Clr maybe Bbn/Ora (Bandw2)
i think anti-paladin has several mechanical things that match, but you should forgo any of the more paladin stuff. like the ability to carry diseases but not be effected by them is cool.
EDIT: lightbringer, can you tell me what my next up coming class is?
After your Dragonrider its
Possessed Scion – Bbn/Clr maybe Bbn/Ora (Bandw2)
thanks. wish people would comment on my stuff, but oh well I sleep now.
well you could take a page from the arcanist and have a scroll mastery that bases your school off cster level. On one hand 3/4ths is easier to balance, on the other it being a 9th level combat caster makes it interesting and less done to death.
He already IS using school powers at his caster level (class level).
I have added the following to the Scroll Mastery list.
Greater Scrollblade Focus (Ex): A scroll warrior’s bonus to his attack rolls while wielding his scrollblade increases to +4. The scroll warrior must have the scrollblade focus scroll mastery to select this mastery.
Scrollblade Focus (Ex): A scroll warrior gains a +2 bonus on all attack rolls when wielding his scrollblade.
These allow an increased focus on scrollblade for the more combat oriented players (like Weapon Focus and Greater Weapon Focus feats)
Ahh i misread, lovely then those should work.
thanks. wish people would comment on my stuff, but oh well I sleep now.
All you've thrown at us is your dragon eidolon concept. Where's the rest? Is the eidlon replacing bloodline completely? Are you staying 9th elvel caster of going to hybrid and 3/4 BAB? We kinda need to know more than just a dragon eidolon as the primary class feature before we can really comment on it. That's why I have a preferred MCA layout when people post. If you don't really have anything else figured out except the want to have a dragon eidolon, then just tell us that so we know where we're starting from with our comments and ideas.
@Dragon Eidolon
An animal companion (druid level -3, like a ranger) can replace the 1st level bloodline power and bloodline arcane, according to the Sylvan wildblooded bloodline. I would say an eidolon is more powerful than a animal companion. So, what do others think a fair swap would be?
What would be a fair swap for a...
1) A dragon eidolon (summoner level -3)
2) A dragon eidolon (full power)
I think we could go with a dragon eidolon (summoner level -3) swapping out 1st level power + bloodline arcana + 9th level bloodline. For a full eidolon, likely add in the 15th level power too. However, we also have bloodline feats and spells we could swap out too. Though, I think for this one the bloodline spells should stay. So that leaves us with Bloodline powers, arcana, and feats for swaps. I don't think we need to go diminished spellcasting, though we could if we're wanting to keep more of the powers. We'd also want to add in certain spells from the summoner spell list that are related directly to eidolons.
Thoughts?
We could also create a "Dragon Rider" Bloodline that incorporates the dragon eidolon, certain powers that Bandw2 wants to have for the rider (sorcerer), and relevant bloodline spells, etc. However, I don't know if we want to limit this to just one bloodline. Best scenario I think is to have both a "Dragon Rider" Bloodline that includes the dragon eidolon + special related powers and spells, and for those who don't want that bloodline, just simply have the Dragon Eidolon replace the same powers, feats, or whatever that are replaced in the "Dragon Rider" bloodline. that way we can have diversity, allowing Dragon Riders with the elemental, celestial, infernal, stormborn, or whatever bloodline they want.
I think this one could really be great! I'd rename it though to something like the Dragon Mage, Dragon Sorcerer, Dragon Caster, etc. While it is a rider, it really is a sorcerer with a dragon "steed/eidolon", something like the Dragon Highlords of Krynn, but a full spellcaster. Think Raistlin on Cyan Bloodbane, but an even tighter bond. We may even want to swap out feats anyways for cool new powers.
#Dragonrider
1/2 BAB
Sorcerer spells per day and known
No Bloodline powers, arcana or bonus feats, Swapped for Eidolon and related summoner abilities.
Bloodline Powers, Arcana, Class Skill and Feats Swapped for Full Eidolon, Life Link(as noted), (?)Shield Ally, Aspect, (?)Greater Shield Ally, Greater Aspect, and maybe Twin Eidolon.
Basically, I'm swapping the entire bloodline class ability, the sorcerer never chooses a bloodline.
(?) not actually sure if I care if these stay.
Name wise, maybe Dragon Aspect? idk, putting dragon in front of a word seems like a silly name, but I am currently running with Dragonrider. We could go full 18th century english and call him a Dragoner. Also, dragon caster, etc doesn't really suggest from the name that you have a dragon companion, which is the big deal for the class.
edit: so much for sleep, I needed to do laundry. :/ can't go to work with no pants.
@Bandw2 how about calling the MCA Dragon Caller?
he doesn't really do any dragon calling... the dragon came to him with the proposition.
this feels relevent although yours is dramatically different for being more caster focused.
Hmm, the Plague Doctor could be Alchemist/Witch perhaps? plenty hexes have that nasty theme about them, and it couldn't hurt to borrow some relevant spells from the spell list too.
If not, as others said Alchemist/Antipaladin could work (The Scourge Champion worked pretty well for my own disease themed character using Antipaladin)
there's also the option of a Druid secondary, theres a few disease themed druids already available through archetypes.
# Dragonrider
I like Dragoncaller too, regardless of when the dragon was called.
I also like Dragoner as in Falconer - I'm working on a Gauntlet Witch/Drake Tamer (Kobold Press Book of Drakes) PrC (or hybrid! ;p) called the draconer that uses the gauntlet witch's eldritch gauntlet as the draconer's glove/gauntlet…
Per the
#Plague Doctor
I'd dig this as an Alch/Antipal only because we don't have one on the wiki. We already have the
Plaguebringer (Witch Antipaladin) and
Witch Doctor (Witch/Alchemist)
but neither approach the theme (to my mind) of the long hook-beaked birdesque-masked plague doctors of historical note and current steampunk cosplay fame. ;)
THough perhaps this is better down the line as an Alchemist/Shaman - able to use the bird theme as the shaman's spirit…Undead, diseas'd or not…. ;P
# Dragonrider
I like Dragoncaller too, regardless of when the dragon was called.
I also like Dragoner as in Falconer - I'm working on a Gauntlet Witch/Drake Tamer (Kobold Press Book of Drakes) PrC (or hybrid! ;p) called the draconer that uses the gauntlet witch's eldritch gauntlet as the draconer's glove/gauntlet…
Per the
#Plague DoctorI'd dig this as an Alch/Antipal only because we don't have one on the wiki. We already have the
Plaguebringer (Witch Antipaladin) and
Witch Doctor (Witch/Alchemist)but neither approach the theme (to my mind) of the long hook-beaked birdesque-masked plague doctors of historical note and current steampunk cosplay fame. ;)
THough perhaps this is better down the line as an Alchemist/Shaman - able to use the bird theme as the shaman's spirit…Undead, diseas'd or not…. ;P
|
Honestly I do not feel there is much I can take from an Antipaladin, now that I take a second look, maybe Touch of Corruption being turned into Touch of Disease and the Plague Bringer is partly covered by two Alchemist archetypes when it comes to disease immunity (Internal Alchemist and Plague Bringer). More I would rather the spread of disease be through the discoveries Plague Bomb and Greater Plague Bomb as well as the ability Plague Vial from the Ratfolk's Plague Bringer archetype. Antipaladin just isn't what I am looking for.
Perhaps a witch or shaman could work theme-wise, as the first are often distrusted and feared. Plague Doctors were in many ways symbols of death and sickness, bringing terror though they were there to help those suffering from disease. Sometimes they may be respect but were more often not often well liked and were avoided if possible.
Yet both classes could work well with the theme of healing, necromancy, fear, and death though I wonder if the Shaman’s connection to spirits would distract from the theme.
----------------------
Also, yes the Vulture Domain is fitting. Combine that Domain with Death and you would have an interesting way of showing a Plague Doctor.
#Dragon Rider
Few other name suggestions?
Dragon + Mage, Benefactor, Consort, Patron, Steward, Custodian, or Magister
Eldritch Dragoner (this gives us Bandw2's Dragoner, plus a reference to a sorcerer or arcane spellcaster)
Regarding Dragon Rider's abilities.
SWAPS
Bloodline power (1/9/15) + bloodline arcana = Dragon eidolon (full) + Life link (all at 1st)
Bloodline power (3) = Bond senses (at 2nd)
Bloodline feat (7th) = Maker’s call (at 6th)
Bloodline feat (11th) = Aspect (at 10th)
Bloodline feat (19th) = Greater aspect (at 18th)
Bloodline power (20th) = Twin eidolon (at 20th)
Bloodline spells = Dragon spells (spells from the draconic bloodline, or new ones that are dragon-related)
Now, while swapping in summoner abilities is great, I think this one would benefit greatly from unique or different class features tied to the flavor of the MCA. This is a sorcerer approached by a dragon-like creature to become bonded with it. Not sure what.
Also, had thought about giving this a Lesser Aspect ability (1 point) at 2nd, instead of bond senses. Possible something different for Maker's call or Twin Eidolon too.
#Scroll Warrior
Anything else on the Scroll Warrior?
Hullo! First time posting here, but your MCAs has become one of my primary sources for realising concepts the regular classes aren't able to, and usually I've very much liked what I've seen.
Anyhow, here's my first suggestion:
Wrathblood
Primary: Bloodrager
Secondary: Summoner (Monk?)
What I'm looking for is basically a full-BAB natural attack focused monstrosity, using its bloodrage to shape its body beyond what any bloodline would otherwise be capable of. The most important bloodrager features to keep would be bloodline powers and full bloodrage, and the only important summoner component would be a limited evolution pool to go with bloodrage. Spellcasting, blood sanctuary, fast movement, uncanny dodge, bloodline bonus spells/feats and everything else is up for trade.
Although both the Primal Avatar and the Primal Caller combine some version of barbarian rage with evolutions, they are quite different beasts, as they lack bloodline powers, use summoned eidolons and many other fluff and crunch aspects of the summoner. The "wrathblood" would differ significantly, her bloodrage and mixed heritage being the source of her evolutions, not some "worn" translucent otherworldly creature.
I also believe the natural attack niche is still largely empty. Even though beast-totem barbs, druids and eidolons may have a foot in the niche, they aren't actually especially well adapted to make the most of natural attacks, for example lacking any native ability to use natural attacks as unarmed strikes (and hence easy access to the metric tons of related feats). Which is why I've put monk up as a possible mechanical source, combined with IUS and some form of "multi-Feral Combat Training" class feature. Existing natural attackers also tend to have very weird power curves IME, typically being OP during early levels (eidolons, especially) but rather weak in high levels (not including druids). A more balanced option would be nice.
I had a go at this myself, but I'm certain you could make more neat/fun solutions and a more generally accepted version (mine is hopefully more versatile/powerful than existing full-BAB classes by Paizo, intended to match classes like the magus, bard, inquisitor and especially the martial disciples in Path of War) Check it out for inspiration if you like.
#Dragonrider
perhaps instead of bonded sense, Bonded Magic (Su): while the Dragonrider is Adjacent or riding his dragon, he counts his Caster level as one higher for all purposes (dealing with Dragonrider class features and spells).
Replace Aspect with, Draconic Influence (Ex): you gain any breath weapon your Dragon has but with half the normal d6 of damage and half as many uses per day. Also gains any energy resistance the dragon might posses, and any immunity gives you resist 20 of that element.
Greater Aspect could become, Greater Draconic Influence (Ex): Your Breath weapon from your Dragon now has the same number of d6 and uses, instead of half. Immunity now gives you full immunity instead of resistance. You gain Half the Natural armor your Dragon has as an enhancement bonus.
also, I really didn't want Maker's Call, it's too summonery.
maybe replace it with Bonded Empathy (Su)? Dragonrider and Dragon always know which direction their Partner is from them. They can transfer simple empathic information between each other regardless of distance, and know when either is being harmed(emotionally or physically).
as for spells, I got nothing. Also, it's more like some individual the dragon feels would be a good companion, and then they get magic. The dragon is the source of their magic.
I also thought some more, we should probably limit some of the eidolon evolutions. like arms. actually that's the only one I think needs to be limits. Perhaps when you choose the Arms from the limb evolution the Dragon gains the ability to wield or manipulate objects with its fore claws, and can be taken only once.
also, let's just Rename Twin Eidolon, to Dragon Exemplar, or something.
@Bandw2 - any thoughts on the names posited?
@Bandw2 - any thoughts on the names posited?
if only we could get something that isn't dragon+words, otherwise i think Dragonrider still fits the most.
for an alternate I think Eldritch Dragoner is the best.
Hullo! First time posting here, but your MCAs has become one of my primary sources for realising concepts the regular classes aren't able to, and usually I've very much liked what I've seen.
Anyhow, here's my first suggestion:
Wrathblood
Primary: Bloodrager
Secondary: Summoner (Monk?)What I'm looking for is basically a full-BAB natural attack focused monstrosity, using its bloodrage to shape its body beyond what any bloodline would otherwise be capable of. The most important bloodrager features to keep would be bloodline powers and full bloodrage, and the only important summoner component would be a limited evolution pool to go with bloodrage. Spellcasting, blood sanctuary, fast movement, uncanny dodge, bloodline bonus spells/feats and everything else is up for trade.
Although both the Primal Avatar and the Primal Caller combine some version of barbarian rage with evolutions, they are quite different beasts, as they lack bloodline powers, use summoned eidolons and many other fluff and crunch aspects of the summoner. The "wrathblood" would differ significantly, her bloodrage and mixed heritage being the source of her evolutions, not some "worn" translucent otherworldly creature.
I also believe the natural attack niche is still largely empty. Even though beast-totem barbs, druids and eidolons may have a foot in the niche, they aren't actually especially well adapted to make the most of natural attacks, for example lacking any native ability to use natural attacks as unarmed strikes (and hence easy access to the metric tons of related feats). Which is why I've put monk up as a possible mechanical source, combined with IUS and some form of "multi-Feral Combat Training" class feature. Existing natural attackers also tend to have very weird power curves IME, typically being OP during early levels (eidolons, especially) but rather weak in high levels (not including druids). A more balanced option would be nice.
I had a...
Welcome upho! As JonathonWilder has said, we'll be waiting a bit until se wtart doing MCas with the ACG classes. We'll start a new thread for that one, whcih will be ACG MCAs but also whatever other MCA ideas people want to work on. Liekley it'll be primarily the ACG classes, just because everyone is dying to do them, but I won't restrict the thread to those.
@upho I apologize, as many on here have MCA ideas involving ACG, but Elghinn wishes to wait a month after release before working on any MCAs involving the classes from the ACG.
Ah, see now I completely missed that in the OP. Makes perfect sense. Sorry.
Should I re-post my concept in the next thread, or simply expect an unusually long wait before any work will be done?
EDIT:
Welcome upho! As JonathonWilder has said, we'll be waiting a bit until se wtart doing MCas with the ACG classes. We'll start a new thread for that one, whcih will be ACG MCAs but also whatever other MCA ideas people want to work on. Liekley it'll be primarily the ACG classes, just because everyone is dying to do them, but I won't restrict the thread to those.
Thanks! Hope you don't mind if I'll entertain myself by messing around with your current work while waiting... :P
#Dragonrider
Names: Dragonist, Electus Draconem (latin: "Chosen by Dragon"), Dracontine/Wyrmblessed/Wyrmborne Mage
I think I personally like "Dracontine Mage" the most, followed by "Wyrmborne Mage". Both names seem fitting, reflecting that the source of the archetype's powers is the dragon, and that it was actually the dragon who chose the character and proposed the pact, not the other way around. They're also relatively simple and have a distinct "draconic" vibe. I prefer "Dracontine Mage" cause it also feels - at least to me - like a pretty unique snowflake in the huge pile of otherwise over-used 'til death dragon related word/name combos. What do you think?
Like EL commented on, I think this archetype really needs its own unique features. Especially when it comes to the dragon "eidolon" itself, which I think should be the primary focus here. The "base forms" (=dragon types), evolution options and the powers the dragon bestows upon the dragonrider should largely decide which sorcerer class features to be traded.
So, starting with the dragon side of the archetype, I believe most qualities of a basic dragon, in terms of evolutions, are pretty much set. I'd say serpentine base form, limbs x2 (arms & legs), claws and flight, which would add upp to 7 EP and at least 5th level if using the standard eidolon rules. If it's also supposed to be a mount, it would need an additonal 5 EP and 8th level for mount and large. On top of this, a dragon would need apropriate energy related abilities (breath weapon, energy attacks, energy resistances etc). Of course, the "dragon" could still look like a dragon, even though it won't have all of the abilities from scratch (for example starting out functioning as a basic horse AC), but I don't think there are many evolution decisions left to be made beyond the dragon's type if not reflavoring them. Meaning, for example, that a melee focused dragon which has additional claw attacks doesn't have to mean the dragon has more limbs, regardless of what the evolutions involved say. So how much of the dragon's qualities should be set? Should the evolutions be kept as-is (for a largely non-adaptable dragon) or be reflavored to allow for mechanical effects (a more adaptable dragon)?
Next, what should the choice of dragon mean for the abilities of the character? I think the suggestions made by Bandw2 seem good, but wouldn't mind taking them further, for example allowing the dragon to affect spell lists and other features.
Ugh... Seems this would involve quite a lot of work. Any easier way to do this?
....Dracontine Magi
Your sesquipedalianly loquacious artistics impress me. That should say something. I may be disinclined to provide further feedback until the matter of whom is the superior sesquipedalian smith is brought to light.
(Translation: BIG WORD FIGHT~!)
But yeah, wow....did a good job thinking out the pre-set abilities of a dragon there. Welcome to MCA!
Thanks! Hope you don't mind if I'll entertain myself by messing around with your current work while waiting... :P
#Dragonrider
Names: Dragonist, Electus Draconem (latin: "Chosen by Dragon"), Dracontine/Wyrmblessed/Wyrmborne MageI think I personally like "Dracontine Mage" the most, followed by "Wyrmborne Mage". Both names seem fitting, reflecting that the source of the archetype's powers is the dragon, and that it was actually the dragon who chose the character and proposed the pact, not the other way around. They're also relatively simple and have a distinct "draconic" vibe. I prefer "Dracontine Mage" cause it also feels - at least to me - like a pretty unique snowflake in the huge pile of otherwise over-used 'til death dragon related word/name combos. What do you think?
I like Dragontine Mage myself. Could also go with Wyrmborn Elect.
Like EL commented on, I think this archetype really needs its own unique features. Especially when it comes to the dragon "eidolon" itself, which I think should be the primary focus here. The "base forms" (=dragon types), evolution options and the powers the dragon bestows upon the dragonrider should largely decide which sorcerer class features to be traded.
So, starting with the dragon side of the archetype, I believe most qualities of a basic dragon, in terms of evolutions, are pretty much set. I'd say serpentine base form, limbs x2 (arms & legs), claws and flight, which would add upp to 7 EP and at least 5th level if using the standard eidolon rules. If it's also supposed to be a mount, it would need an additonal 5 EP and 8th level for mount and large. On top of this, a dragon would need apropriate energy related abilities (breath weapon, energy attacks, energy resistances etc). Of course, the "dragon" could still look like a dragon, even though it won't have all of the abilities from scratch (for example starting out functioning as a basic horse AC), but I don't think there are many evolution decisions left to be made beyond the dragon's type if not reflavoring them. Meaning, for example, that a melee focused dragon which has additional claw attacks doesn't have to mean the dragon has more limbs, regardless of what the evolutions involved say. So how much of the dragon's qualities should be set? Should the evolutions be kept as-is (for a largely non-adaptable dragon) or be reflavored to allow for mechanical effects (a more adaptable dragon)?
Next, what should the choice of dragon mean for the abilities of the character? I think the suggestions made by Bandw2 seem good, but wouldn't mind taking them further, for example allowing the dragon to affect spell lists and other features.
Ugh... Seems this would involve quite a lot of work. Any easier way to do this?
Upho, anyone is welcome to jump in and comment on current MCAs. I like your ideas. I'm working out things with the whole dragon subtype aspect. I think the eidolon should gain the following static evolutions at the following levels: 1st (claws), 3rd (flight), 5th (breath weapon), 7th (immunity), 10th (large, mount). Still allows the MCA to choose certain evolutions (resistance, etc) prior to the levels he gains the other evolutions, but by certain elvels, they are mandatory evolutions.
We'll also give it a Dragon base form (cross between a quadruped and serpentine).
Dragon
Starting Statistics: Size Medium; Speed 30 ft.; AC +2 armor bonus; Saves Fort (good), Ref (good), Will (good); Attack bite (1d6); Ability Scores Str 14, Dex 14 Con 13, Int 7, Wis 10, Cha 11; Free Evolutions bite, limbs (legs) (2), tail.
Then we can include adjustments in the dragon Eidolon ability entry. Then we add a Wyrm Bond ability which will replace the remaining swaps, granting certain abilities, bonus spells (based again on subtype - spells that will emulate their subtypes special abilities, breath weapon, etc.).
Anyways, Working on it. I'll post the first draft hopefully later today.
I like Dracotine Electus personally.
Also, @ upho/LB
you missed my linkety. tell me if it isn't working...
Dragons, unlike normal Eidolons, are not Outsiders but actual Dragons, thus their typing is Dragon, and they are not banished when their HP would cause them to die. Instead they are made up as much flesh and bone as their Rider.
The Dragons who bond to Riders are not like normal dragons, instead of their physicality reflecting their personality, the opposite is true. Occasionally these dragons will molt into a new form that better represents themselves in their own mind. As such a Dragon can change their evolutions any time they level up with their Rider or when they change alignment with their Summoner. Also, as their own ego grows, so too do their bodies, thus the greater a Dragon has accomplished the greater their available alterations from the norm and their overall size.
These Dragons must bond to another Sapient being that is not of their race, they use that creature as a mental anchor so that the painful molting process doesn’t happen too regularly. A Dragon with an unconscious Rider or one that is far away from it’s Rider may appear and act almost bipolar.
CLICK LINK FOR THE TABLE
LINK - link changes in the following ways:
Communication - not only are you limited to their own plane, but the range is 5ft*(DragonRider levels [squared](max 400 squares or 2000 ft)( or [cubed]{max 8000 sqyares or 40000 ft or 7 and a half miles})).
Damage - Any damage that would kill either the Rider or the Dragon is instead applied to the other at 1.5 times the amount. If the damage cannot cross the link without killing the other, then Both the Dragon and Rider are killed.
Resurrection - Any attempt to resurrect either of them will resurrect both, the Dragon will always behave as if effected by true resurrection while the Rider is effected by the spell as normal. The duo effectively count as a single individual for resurrections, and both their bodies must meet the spells requirements.
Death Effects - Both characters make a saving roll and both must fail for the overall effect to be considered a failed save and both are killed, otherwise if at least one of them saves, the effect counts as a saved against and it only effects the one targeted by the effect.
DRAGON:
Starting Statistics
Size Small; Speed 30 ft.; AC +2 natural armor; Saves Fort (bad), Ref (good), Will (good); Attack bite (1d6); Ability Scores Str 14, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 9, Wis 10, Cha 11
Free Evolutions
bite, limbs (legs) (2).
Special
HD = 12Ds
The bite always uses 1.5 times strength mod for damage, and has the reach of a creature one size category larger.
Vestigial Wings can make a DC 15 Fly check to fall safely from any height without taking falling damage, as if using feather fall. When falling safely, the Dragon may make an additional DC 15 Fly check to glide, moving 5 feet laterally for every 20 feet he falls.
SIZE INCREASE - Each time the Dragon gains a size increase on the chart as shown, it can elect to have it’s size increases by one category, and the following applies. The first increase gives +2 strength as size modifiers. The second gain replaces the size modifiers with +4s on the shown physical attribute and +2 con, -2 dex, and +2 int, also the Dragon now has good fortitude saves and bad reflex saves. The third size increase removes the Vestigial wings Special ability and gives the Dragon a fly speed of 40 (average) or increases it by +30 if you already have the flight evolution or gain it later, and the size modifiers are changed to +6 str, -2 dex, +2 Con, +2 int, +2 Chr. The final size increase gives the Dragon a fly speed of 60 (poor) and the size modifiers change to +8 str, -4 dex, +4 con, +4 int, +2 chr.
The idea is the Dragon is as deadly as it's personality reflects, thus claws, breath weapons or even elemental alignment aren't necessary.
edit: actually it makes a lot more sense why people want the character to gain more if they didn't read my damn link. :/
@Bandw2
The thing is, if we are combing sorcerer/summoner, and gaining a dragon eidolon, we should really just use the eidolon table and work within it. As you are automatically increasing sizes on your table, why not just keep it within the eidolon parameters and force certain evolution choices. start it at Medium, force certain evolutions, and you can get it up to Huge within the evolution points by 15th.
It know you are trying to throw in an eidolon that is nearly equal dragons, but the eidolon is pretty balanced in and of itself. Going to d12s, and adding in size increases up to Gargantuan is a BIG thing for a PC class, and with 24 evolution points its unbalancing. Plus, with it around all the time and can't be banished, and it still has 15 Hit Dice.
Let me post what I'm working on, and we'll see what you and everyone else thinks.
because the Eidolon stuff doesn't get very dragony unless your flavor it. TBH, the stat thing I think is way too strong and should tone it down. My idea was to have most of the unique stuff be in the dragon, which is why I was confused with all this other drudgery initially.
also gargantuan doesn't actually help much, it just gives you reach, which the dragon would already have oodles of, if we just went colossal . The AC drop means your going to have horrible touch AC.
also looking back on it now, I think I thought Eidolons had more evolution points than 26 when I put out the chart, or maybe i did the chart and thought of size increase later.
Size increase is supposed to show it's increased ego, and thus stat growing, but i didn't want to constrict the dragon to being death machine city. though I think instead of stats everywhere, the player should get 2 ability increases for free, with sizes still imparting a lower dex.
I changed stuff around, tell me what you think.
....Dracontine Magi
Your sesquipedalianly loquacious artistics impress me. That should say something.
Uh... Beg your pardon, dear Sir, but could you please clarify what exactly that "should say something" - should the sashquawhatsitcalled loquathingy actually say (mean) something(!), or the fact that you're impressed? If it's the former, I'm afraid my embarrasingly feeble grasp of the language prevents me from being of any assistance. If it's the latter, uh... Does that mean you're impressed by the artistics of my, what, bigfoot logic(?) or my net-fu, being able to stumble across a suitable archaic term? But whatever the case, thank you!
I may be disinclined to provide further feedback until the matter of whom is the superior sesquipedalian smith is brought to light.
(Translation: BIG WORD FIGHT~!)
Wait! I implore you, before you swing the proverbial smith's hammer of eloquence in merciless diatribes and fulminations, please consider that I am actually of Swedish nationality. Hence Swedish is my mother tongue, not this barbaric English which I find as inadequate for any decorous fracas of phrases as for pontificating the constituents of any meet subject. In the spirit of true sportsmanship, I therefore feel at least a handicap of some suitable design would be appropriate, should these intransigent impetrations for monologue monomachy remain. May I suggest me cowardly running away? :D
But yeah, wow....did a good job thinking out the pre-set abilities of a dragon there. Welcome to MCA!
Thanks!
because the Eidolon stuff doesn't get very dragony unless your flavor it. TBH, the stat thing I think is way too strong and should tone it down. My idea was to have most of the unique stuff be in the dragon, which is why I was confused with all this other drudgery initially.
I think I understand what your looking for here, but as written, I find it hard to see what makes your dragon much different from a standard eidolon. The problem, I think, is that a dragon is a quite specific and well defined type of creature in PF (and in various real-world myths). That is, a creature must have a certain combination of visible physical and invisible other traits before it will be recognized as, and called, a dragon. The summoner's eidolon, on the other hand, is much defined by it's lack of universal visible traits. Though the creature type "dragon" includes everything from true dragons to wyverns and sea serpents, only the creatures which are, or closely resemble, true dragons are also called dragons. (The only things uniting all creatures of the dragon type is fitting the description "...a reptile-like creature, usually winged, with magical or unusual abilities" and the type's universal traits, and these could just as well apply to some magic insect).
EDIT: And by the way, I believe the unique stuff will be in the dragon still, hence why LE started with dragon. That does not mean the already written rules should be ignored when it serves little purpose. In short, I wouldn't worry about the dragon's power or uniqueness. If it's on about the same level as an eidolon (or slightly higher as it currently looks), it will be more than impressive and able to kick some major butt in combat. /EDIT
also gargantuan doesn't actually help much, it just gives you reach, which the dragon would already have oodles of, if we just went colossal . The AC drop means your going to have horrible touch AC.
Reach is a huge thing (or even colossal!) for melee combatants, especially for those with special attacks dependent on size (grab, trip etc). Size is often plenty more important than damage for such creatures, as the value of their battlefield control increases exponentially with the number of spaces they can affect. And colossal size would be out of the question for any PC-controlled creature IMO, not because of the reach so much as the size making the creature useless in many scenarios. The effective limit is now huge for eidolons (and certain PCs), or gargantuan with enlarge person. I don't think it would be a good idea to step away from this limit, and especially not to force a size larger than huge.
Size increase is supposed to show it's increased ego, and thus stat growing, but i didn't want to constrict the dragon to being death machine city. though I think instead of stats everywhere, the player should get 2 ability increases for free, with sizes still imparting a lower dex.
While I think that is an improvement, consider that even true dragons follow the same size bonuses/penalties as those listed in the large and huge evolutions, so why complicate matters? If you think, as I do, that the dragon should have certain ability increases or other evolutions at certain levels, I think those should be payed for at the normal price, with the only difference being the payment simply having been calculated for in a decreased number of evolution points.
So basically what EL said, I guess. (Though I wouldn't call the standard eidolon "pretty balanced", at least no with melee classes. IME, eidolons can easily be more versatile and powerful than even complete PC classes such as the fighter or monk.)
I think the eidolon should gain the following static evolutions at the following levels: 1st (claws), 3rd (flight), 5th (breath weapon), 7th (immunity), 10th (large, mount). Still allows the MCA to choose certain evolutions (resistance, etc) prior to the levels he gains the other evolutions, but by certain elvels, they are mandatory evolutions.
If the dragonrider is intended to ride the dragon, I'd put flight at a later "legal" level and large + mount earlier, despite that this would be ignoring the large evolution level prerequisite. Perhaps:
1st (claws)
3rd (large, mount)
5th (flight, resistance)
7th (breath weapon)
10th (resistance upgraded to immunity)
A way to get around the too-high large evolution bonuses is to replace it with a permanent enlarge person (2 EP) which upgrades to large at 10th. This would also prevent the dragon from going huge at an early level. I also think the 4 EP cost of 1/day breath weapon is a bit steep, especially when enforced in this manner. Maybe make it the maximum 3/day without having to pay the additional 2 EP cost.
We'll also give it a Dragon base form (cross between a quadruped and serpentine).
What would this entail in terms of meeting evo prereqs? Qualifies for both, one of them, none, or did you intend to make a specific evo list?
Re: name:
I like Dragontine Mage myself. Could also go with Wyrmborn Elect.
Cool. Seems all of us like some combination including Dracontine, so far. (Note that it's Dracontine though.) I think both Wyrmborne Elect and Dracontine Electus sounds fine, though I guess both could be considered tautologies in this context - Wyrmborne Elect = "person empowered/uplifted/carried by the dragon and chosen by the dragon", and Dracontine Electus = "person belonging to the dragon and chosen by the dragon". I think I also prefer a caster reference in the name, as this is a sorc primary MCA.
@Tacoman - what does having seventy legs have to do with perspicacity?
#Dracontine Electus
Seeing as the original concept provider, Bandw2 is in favour, as is El, let us use that. Moves the concept away from the Dragonrider trope which is well exhausted. If only we could make the MCA live up to the imperial gravitas the name implies.
I'm not seein anything yet to make this exciting, and I would rather see the MCA bear the thematic weight than the uniqueness of the Dragon/tweaked eidolon.
I'd also like to see the DE not locked into specific bloodlines, but able to flavorfully and mechanically impart the bloodpowers to the Dragon.
Tactical maneuvers the DE can invoke in and with the Dragon.
Does the DE have spells? If not there could be more room to play with.
Sorry if any of this has been discussed.
@upho - any chance you could spoiler some of your responses? Grouping them by idea might make it easier for me to ingest.
#Dracotine Electus
I think my brain derped last night, colossal will not be attainable, I meant Huge. A dragon with flight with Huge can just fly over people and claw them as he passes, or breath a breath weapon.
Also, the diversity of the Dragon typing is my point, these aren't true dragons, but are intelligent, and mimic all or any kind of dragon, or none(in essence you can ride anything that is in someway considered a dragon).
also, the ride-ability of the dragon is also not necessary, I wanted the Player the choice of leaving it as small or even medium, and of course you can have higher sizes and still not ride it.
The one thing I can see that is universally common among dragons is their bite attack, which grants them 1.5 strength on damage rolls and has the reach of a creature one size larger.
# Dracontine Electus
@bandw2 - I'm also seeing these as having the Dragon type as opposed to literally being true dragons.
I also agree that the ride-concept should be an option, not hard-coded.
#Dracotine Electus
I think my brain derped last night, colossal will not be attainable, I meant Huge. A dragon with flight with Huge can just fly over people and claw them as he passes, or breath a breath weapon.
Also, the diversity of the Dragon typing is my point, these aren't true dragons, but are intelligent, and mimic all or any kind of dragon, or none(in essence you can ride anything that is in someway considered a dragon).
also, the ride-ability of the dragon is also not necessary, I wanted the Player the choice of leaving it as small or even medium, and of course you can have higher sizes and still not ride it.
The one thing I can see that is universally common among dragons is their bite attack, which grants them 1.5 strength on damage rolls and has the reach of a creature one size larger.
If you are not wanting them to statically use it as a mount or increase size of the dragon eidolon, that's fine. Allows for diverse builds - a riding spell behemoth, or an allied foot soldier and guardian.
In this case the static evolutions should be: 1st (claws), 3rd (resistance), 5th (flight), 7th (immunity*), 9th (breath weapon). will still allow for the large or mount evolutions, plus other dragony ones.
Is there any evolutions the dragon eidolon should be restricted from?
Is there any evolutions the dragon eidolon should be restricted from?
perhaps less dragon-like physical features? like the Hooves, Pincers and Web?
#Dragontine Electus.
Here's the first draft. We need a flavor blurp too, Bandw2.
Primary: Sorcerer.
Secondary: Summoner.
Alignment: Any.
Hit Dice: d6.
Bonus Skills and Ranks: The dracontine electus selects three summoner skills to add to her class skills in addition to the normal sorcerer class skills. The dracontine electus gains a number of ranks at each level equal to +2 Int modifier.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The dracontine electus is proficient with all simple weapons. A dracontine electus is not proficient with any type of armor or shield. Armor interferes with a dracontine electus's movements, which can cause her spells with somatic components to fail.
Spellcasting: A dracontine electus learns and casts spells as a sorcerer of equal level, but adds the following spells to the sorcerer/wizard spell list at the indicated spell levels: 1st–life conduit, rejuvenate eidolon (lesser); 2nd–evolution surge (lesser), restore eidolon (lesser), summon eidolon; 3rd–evolution surge, rejuvenate eidolon; 4th–life conduit (improved), restore eidolon; 5th–purified calling, summoner conduit, transmogrify; 6th–evolution surge (greater); 7th–life conduit (greater). A dracontine electus also gains bonus spell if she has a high Charisma score.
Dragon Eidolon (Su): At 1st level, a dracontine electus gains the summoner’s eidolon ability. However, while summoner’s call their eidolons from their plane of existence, dragon eidolons seek out their own partners the Material plane. Once made, this choice cannot be changed, and a special bond is formed between the eidolon and its dracontine electus. Henceforth, the dragon eidolon becomes the source of its dracontine electus’s magic (see Wyrm Bond).
A dragon eidolon has the same statistics as a normal eidolon, except for the changes shown on Table: Dragon Eidolon Base and hereafter.
A dragon eidolon always has the following base form to determine its starting size, speed, AC, attacks, and ability scores. All natural attacks are made using the eidolon’s full base attack bonus unless otherwise noted (such as in the case of secondary attacks), as normal.
Dragon
Starting Statistics: Size Medium; Speed 30 ft.; AC +2 armor bonus; Saves Fort (good), Ref (good), Will (good); Attack bite (1d6); Ability Scores Str 14, Dex 14 Con 13, Int 7, Wis 10, Cha 11; Free Evolutions bite, limbs (legs) (2), tail.
As the dragon eidolon gains power, it must spend its evolution points on specific evolutions to function more like a dragon. The dragon eidolon must select the following evolutions at the indicated levels: 1st (claws), 3rd (resistance), 5th (flight), 7th (immunity*), 9th (breath weapon). A dragon eidolon is restricted from selecting the following evolutions: hooves, pincers, tentacles, web. Any remaining evolution points may be spent as the dragon eidolon chooses. (*replaces the resistance evolution)
A dragon eidolon’s physical appearance is up to the dracontine electus, but it always appears as some sort of metallic or chromatic dragon. At 1st level, the eidolon must choose a metallic or chromatic dragon type. Once chosen, it cannot be changed. The eidolon’s subtype also determines its resistance, breath weapon, and immunity evolutions as follows: black (acid), blue (electricity), brass (fire), bronze (electricity), copper (acid), green (acid), gold (fire), red (fire), silver (cold), white (cold).
In addition, a dragon eidolon gains the following special abilities.
Unbreakable Bond (Su): Once a dragon eidolon bonds with a dracontine electus, the lives of both become permanently tied to each other. If one is slain (the dracontine electus or the dragon eidolon), the other is subject to a slay living spell with a caster level equal to the dragon eidolon’s Hit Dice. The subject might die from damage even if it succeeds on the Fortitude saving throw. Should one or the other become subject to a death spell or effect (such as a finger of death spell), both must make the required saving throw. If both succeed on the save, there is no effect. If one fails while the other succeeds, then both are subject to any effects bestowed by a successful save (such as the damage dealt by a successful save against the finger of death spell). If both fail, then both are subject to the spells full effect. In addition, this bond extends beyond death. If the dracontine electus or the dragon eidolon is subject to a raise dead or resurrection spell, then both are subject to the spell’s effect.
Unfettered: A dragon eidolon is an unfettered eidolon from the material plane. It cannot be sent back to its home plane, nor is it subject to dismissal or banishment spell like other eidolons. Should the dragon eidolon reaches a number of negative hit points equal to its Constitution score, it is slain, but can be healed by natural and magical means. The dragon eidolon also loses the outsider type and gains the dragon type.
Vestigal Wings (Ex): At 1st level, a dragon eidolon possesses a pair of undersized or stunted wings. These wings do not provide the lift required for actual flight, but do have enough power to aid flight attained by some other method, and grant a +4 racial bonus on Fly skill checks. In addition, the dragon eidolon can make a DC 15 Fly check to fall safely from any height to avoid taking fall damage as if using feather fall. When falling safely, the dragon eidolon can make an additional DC 15 Fly check to glide, moving 5 feet laterally for every 20 feet it falls. When the dragon eidolon gains the flight evolution, this ability can still be used if its wings are damaged, but not destroyed.
Draconic Prowess (Ex): At 2nd level, a dragon eidolon deals 1 1/2 its Strength modifier on damage rolls made with its bite attack, and has the reach of a creature one size larger. This ability replaces evasion.
Draconic Aura (Su): At 14th level, a dragon eidolon is surrounded by an aura of energy. All creatures within 5 feet take 1d6 points of energy damage of the eidolon’s dragon type at the beginning of the dragon eidolon's turn. At 18th level, this damage increases to 2d6. This does not affect the dracontine electus, and can be suppressed or activated as a free action. This ability replaces improved evasion.
Wyrm Bond (Su): At 1st level, a dracontine electus forms a bond with her dragon eidolon that grants her spells, an additional class skill, and other special abilities, similar to a sorcerer’s bloodline. All abilities tied to the wyrm bond are described in the Wyrm Bond description below.
Table: Dracontine Electus
Base
Class Attack Fort Ref Will Spells per Day
Level Bonus Save Save Save Special 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th
1st +0 +0 +0 +2 Bonded magic, cantrips, dragon eidolon, 3 — — — — — — — —
eschew material, wyrm bond,
2nd +1 +0 +0 +3 Bonded empathy 4 — — — — — — — —
3rd +1 +1 +1 +3 Wyrm bond spell 5 — — — — — — — —
4th +2 +1 +1 +4 6 3 — — — — — — —
5th +2 +1 +1 +4 Wyrm bond spell 6 4 — — — — — — —
6th +3 +2 +2 +5 Draconic influence 6 5 3 — — — — — —
7th +3 +2 +2 +5 Wyrm bond spell 6 6 4 — — — — — —
8th +4 +2 +2 +6 6 6 5 3 — — — — —
9th +4 +3 +3 +6 Wyrm bond spell 6 6 6 4 — — — — —
10th +5 +3 +3 +7 Dragon breath 6 6 6 5 3 — — — —
11th +5 +3 +3 +7 Wyrm bond spell 6 6 6 6 4 — — — —
12th +6/+1 +4 +4 +8 6 6 6 6 5 3 — — —
13th +6/+1 +4 +4 +8 Wyrm bond spell 6 6 6 6 6 4 — — —
14th +7/+2 +4 +4 +9 6 6 6 6 6 5 3 — —
15th +7/+2 +5 +5 +9 Wyrm bond spell 6 6 6 6 6 6 4 — —
16th +8/+3 +5 +5 +10 6 6 6 6 6 6 5 3 —
17th +8/+3 +5 +5 +10 Wyrm bond spell 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 4 —
18th +9/+4 +6 +6 +11 Greater draconic influence 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 5 3
19th +9/+4 +6 +6 +11 Wyrm bond spell 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 4
20th +10/+5 +6 +6 +12 Draconic eminence 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6
The dracontine electus is granted the following class skill, spells, and powers from her dragon eidolon.
Class Skill: The dracontine electus adds Perception to her list of class skills.
Bonus Spells: The dracontine electus gains the following bonus spells and adds them to her list of spells known, according to the eidolon’s dragon subtype.
Black: feather step (3rd), darkness (5th), water breathing (7th), plant growth (9th), acid spray (11th), insect plague (13th), form of the dragon II (15th), mass charm monster (17th), wish (19th).
Blue: ventriloquism (3rd), minor image (5th), sand storm (as sleet storm) (7th), hallucinatory terrain (9th), mirage arcana (11th), veil (13th), project image (15th), form of the dragon III (17th), ride the lightning (19th).
Brass: speak with animals (3rd), resist energy (fire only) (5th), suggestion (7th), forgetful slumber (9th), control winds (11th), move earth (13th), control weather (15th), form of the dragon III (17th), whirlwind (19th).
Bronze: speak with animals (3rd), fog cloud (5th), water breathing (7th), control water (9th), lightning arc (11th), repulsion (13th), control weather (15th), form of the dragon III (17th), tsunami (19th).
Copper: grease (3rd), spider climb (5th), slow (7th), stone shape (9th), transmute rock to mud/mud to rock (11th), move earth (13th), forcecage (15th), form of the dragon III (17th), power word kill (19th).
Green: charm person (3rd), pass without trace (5th), water breathing (7th), plant growth (9th), command plants (11th), liveoak (13th), caustic eruption (15th), form of the dragon III (17th), dominate monster (19th).
Gold: detect evil (3rd), locate object (5th), daylight (7th), dragon breath (9th), polymorph (11th), geas/quest (13th), form of the dragon II (15th), sunburst (17th), foresight (19th).
Red: burning disarm (3rd), pyrotechnics (5th), suggestion (7th), wall of fire (9th), hold monster (11th), find the path (13th), form of the dragon II (15th), discern location (17th), fiery body (19th).
Silver: feather fall (3rd), fog cloud (5th), hold person (7th), polymorph (9th), spell resistance (11th), control winds (13th), reverse gravity (15th), form of the dragon III (17th), winds of vengeance (19th).
White: obscuring mist (3rd), spider climb (5th), wind wall (7th), wall of ice (9th), icy prison (11th), ice fog (as acid fog, but cold damage) (13th), control weather (15th), form of the dragon III (17th), imprisonment (19th).
Bond Powers: The power of the dragon eidolon flows through the dracontine electus and manifests in a number of ways. At 1st level, the dracontine electus must select one of the chromatic or metallic dragon types. This choice cannot be changed. A number of the following abilities are based on this dragon type, as noted on Table: Wyrm Bond Breath Weapons.
Bonded Magic (Su): At 1st level, as long as the dracontine electus is adjacent to or riding her dragon eidolon, she can cast spells as if she had the Heightened Spell metamagic feat, but only increases the spell’s effective spell level by 1 (maximum 9th level). This ability replaces bloodline arcana.
Bonded Empathy (Su): Starting at 2nd level, the dracontine electus and dragon eidolon always know which direction that the other is in. This functions as a constant know direction spell, treating one or the other as true north for the purpose of its effect. In addition, the dracontine electus and dragon eidolon can share simple empathic information between them, allowing one to know if the other has been harmed (either emotionally or physically). This ability replaces the bloodline power gained at 3rd level.
Draconic Influence (Ex): At 6th level, a dracontine electus gains resistance 10 to the same type of energy as her dragon eidolon’s immunity evolution. This ability replaces the bonus feat gained at 7th level.
Dragon Breath (Su): At 10th level, a dracontine electus gains a breath weapon. This breath weapon deals 1d6 points of damage of her dragon eidolon’s energy type per two dracontine electus levels. Those caught in the area of the breath receive a Reflex save for half damage. The DC of this save is equal to 10 + 1/2 her dracontine electus level + her Charisma modifier. The shape of the breath weapon depends on the dracontine electus’s dragon eidolon’s chosen subtype (as shown on the table below). At 10th level, the dracontine electus can use this ability once per day. At 18th level, the dracontine electus can use this ability twice per day. This ability replaces the bonus feat gained at 11th level.
Table: Wyrm Bond Breath Weapons
Dragon Type Energy Type Breath Shape
Black Acid 60-foot line
Blue Electricity 60-foot line
Green Acid 30-foot cone
Red Fire 30-foot cone
White Cold 30-foot cone
Brass Fire 60-foot line
Bronze Electricity 60-foot line
Copper Acid 60-foot line
Gold Fire 30-foot cone
Silver Cold 30-foot cone
Greater Draconic Influence (Ex): At 18th level, a dracontine electus’s gains immunity to the same energy type as her draconic influence ability. Her breath weapon damage increases to 1d6 points of damager per dracontine electus level. In addition, the dracontine electus gains a +2 natural armor bonus to her Armor Class. This ability replaces the bonus feat gained at 19th level.
Draconic Eminence (Su): At 20th level, a dracontine electus gains the summoner’s twin eidolon ability. This ability replaces the bloodline power gained at 20th level.
Anything else on my SCROLL WARRIOR? If not we'll move on.
OSW, are you ready with your Xeno Hunter, or are you still knee deep in things?
The next few MCA are as follows.
Queue Update
Xeno Hunter – ?/? (OSW)
Old Wiki MCA (Hand of Faith)
Lightspeed Master - Mnk/Mag (Bardess)
“Name” – Class/Class (Starfox)
“Name” – Gun/Class or Class/Gun (Christos Gurd)
Copper Cannoneer – Cav/Gun (Lindley Court)
Old Wiki MCA (Highwayman)
Snake Charmer – Drd/Sum/Brd (Tyrannical)???
Powder Bomber – Gun/Alc (Tyrannical)
Spectral Fist – Mag/Monk or Mnk/Mag (Apraham Lincoln)
Marked Ninja – Nin/Sor (Taco Man)
Final Warlord – Cav/Anp or Anp/Cav (Taco Man)
Exanimate Evoker – Sum/Sor “Evil” (mrtaco6)
“KeeningSoul” – Wtc/Brd (JonathonWilder)
Star Speaker – Sor/Ora (JonathonWilder)
Possessed Scion – Bbn/Clr maybe Bbn/Ora (Bandw2)
I believe Tyrannical has 2 in a row because Christos or someone gave him their slot. I think the other doubles are because I wasn't sure which ones Taco or Jon were wanting to do.
I believe Tyrannical has 2 in a row because Christos or someone gave him their slot. I think the other doubles are because I wasn't sure which ones Taco or Jon were wanting to do.
Neat! :D
#Dragontine Electus.
Here's the first draft. We need a flavor blurp too, Bandw2.** spoiler omitted **...
That should be DRACONTINE ELECTUS!!! :D
@El: Still knee deep in the dead. At least today. Throw it down the list El. Though I do have a few new ideas.
#Dragontine Electus.
Here's the first draft. We need a flavor blurp too, Bandw2.** spoiler omitted **...
I like unfettered and unbreakable bond, however, I specifically wanted to leave the dragon untied from true dragons. I mean there are tons of other kinds of dragons.
I just remembered you can just choose to make your eidolon small, so there's that.
also, add in some part where the Dragon is controlled by the player, and then change everything where the DE can choose something for the dragon with, the dragon chooses it.
#Dragontine Electus.
Here's the first draft. We need a flavor blurp too, Bandw2.** spoiler omitted **...
I like unfettered and unbreakable bond, however, I specifically wanted to leave the dragon untied from true dragons. I mean there are tons of other kinds of dragons.
I just remembered you can just choose to make your eidolon small, so there's that.
also, add in some part where the Dragon is controlled by the player, and then change everything where the DE can choose something for the dragon with, the dragon chooses it.
Well, if you want it just generic "dragon" vs. metallic/chromatic, then I think we can just make the following changes to Wyrm Bond ability.
Bonus Spells: We can just list the spells by spell level (1st, 2nd, etc.) and the player simply picks one from each spell level. This will allow for great diversity as to the bonus spells various DE's can gain. Since the sorcerer usually gets to select from a variety of bloodlines, we can allow some choice within the Wyrmbond to echo that. We could also add a few other spells to the list to tie into other dragons, like the faerie dragon, etc.
Breath Weapon: I think we either make this a static shape (cone or line), or allow the DE to choose the shape, but once chosen can't be changed.
Then we just tie the other abilities related to resistances, immunities, and breath weapons are all tied to the same energy type as the eidolon's resistance/immunity/breath weapon evolutions, though static once chosen. So with this, you could have a dragon eidolon that looks like a red dragon that is resistant/immune and has a breath weapon of electricity, or even cold. That way, there is no real tie to color, etc.
So there would be access to all the different metallic/chromatic energy resistances/breath weapons, and spells but no specific tie to any one color.
the breath weapon, resistances and such would all be picked like normal for an eidolon though? and would change just like when the dragon does. the dragon effectively metamorphosizes as opposed to just a character leveling up, which is what the whole speal about their mental state effecting their body. they evolve as their ego does.
the idea is, if you and the dragon have a radical alignment shift, so too does the dragons abilities to match. the dragon can one level be electricity oriented then another be resistant to fire and electricity, but no offense, then the next be acid breath and resistance. Hence my thing that you can only reassign evolution points when you level and when you change alignment.
i sort of wanted to do something to make the change not instant since it's both extremely painful and he/she is made of blood and bones and not mystic outsider joojoo. like every time the eidolon evolves, it is staggered for 1d4 days or something.
P.S. I'm using the psychology term ego, which is basically latin for self. it's mostly just your mental self image and the part that handles conflicting moral and physical needs.
also, I don't really feel like dealing with bonus spells. I'm not saying remove them, but I don't feel like trying to customize them myself. if anything, make sure at least a few make it onto magic evolutions so the dragon can get some offense through magic.
edit: I think I should clarify, the idea that I had was, get a dragon companion, then use evolution points to make it any kind of dragon you wanted. the evolution points were the part that let them choose how exactly they wanted their dragon-ness to be protrayed. With new static bonuses lining up the scaffolding for a dragon. dragon scaffolding being A. large as all hell B. Very strong and intelligent C. some sort of flight/swimming/burrowing(I couldn't really think of a cool way to do this one)
edit 2.0: hell an easy thing to do is make 5(/1 with slight differences) base shapes. basically a fire dragon(increased base movement or flight), air dragon (faster flight or greater maneuverability), water dragon(Swim or flight), earth dragon(flight or burrow), and natural dragon (freedom of movement or flight). then just plop the relevant abilities to them. natural get's that thing to move through brush and a sonic breath weapon, the rest is obvious enough i think.
There everyone is happy.
the breath weapon, resistances and such would all be picked like normal for an eidolon though? and would change just like when the dragon does. the dragon effectively metamorphosizes as opposed to just a character leveling up, which is what the whole speal about their mental state effecting their body. they evolve as their ego does.
the idea is, if you and the dragon have a radical alignment shift, so too does the dragons abilities to match. the dragon can one level be electricity oriented then another be resistant to fire and electricity, but no offense, then the next be acid breath and resistance. Hence my thing that you can only reassign evolution points when you level and when you change alignment.
i sort of wanted to do something to make the change not instant since it's both extremely painful and he/she is made of blood and bones and not mystic outsider joojoo. like every time the eidolon evolves, it is staggered for 1d4 days or something.
P.S. I'm using the psychology term ego, which is basically latin for self. it's mostly just your mental self image and the part that handles conflicting moral and physical needs.
also, I don't really feel like dealing with bonus spells. I'm not saying remove them, but I don't feel like trying to customize them myself. if anything, make sure at least a few make it onto magic evolutions so the dragon can get some offense through magic.
edit: I think I should clarify, the idea that I had was, get a dragon companion, then use evolution points to make it any kind of dragon you wanted. the evolution points were the part that let them choose how exactly they wanted their dragon-ness to be protrayed. With new static bonuses lining up the scaffolding for a dragon. dragon scaffolding being A. large as all hell B. Very strong and intelligent C. some sort of flight/swimming/burrowing(I couldn't really think of a cool way to do this one)
edit 2.0: hell an easy thing to do is make 5(/1 with slight differences) base shapes. basically a fire dragon(increased base...
So you're saying you want the ediolon to be able to have say resistance to acid, immunity to cold, and a fire breath weapon? Allowing for complete customization without any type of path or structure to their choices.
Regarding your 5 builds (fire, water, electricity, sonic, and acid). Are you wanting to essentially make build packages, one for each of these types? so instead of going the metallic/chromatic route, go a basic elemental/energy route (Fire, Water, Earth, Air, or Nature Dragon), chosen at 1st level. Thus the dragon eidolon choses its element path at 1st, and grows into a more powerful dragon of that type as it advances. Of course we don't need to slot them into static groups, but we could just provide a package for those specific builds, such as listing preferred/associated evolutions to get that particular dragon eidolon (like they do for the eidolon with their prefabed Eidolon Model packages at the bottom of THIS page). We could easily use the dragon build they have listed as the base, without any "static" evolutions like we've listed in my 1st draft. They could then still chose to have unrelated resistances, immunities, and breath weapons if they desire.
Done with Scroll Warrior, here's the...
Often found roaming in a particular terrain, the highwayman is seen as either a dashing rogue or brutal thug. Trained to make precision attacks against a particular foe, the highwayman uses his reputation to instilling fear in those he battles. The strong bond he forms with those with whom he travels allows him to unite them in a common cause, such as making a surgical strike against a caravan of wealthy merchant, or an entourage of traveling noblemen. While some highwaymen steal for to increase their own wealth, some do so to help the dredges of society who have been trampled underfoot by the privileged.
Primary Class: Ranger.
Secondary Class: Rogue.
Alignment: Any.
Hit Die: d10.
Bonus Skills and Ranks: The highwayman may select three rogue skills to add to his class skills in addition to the normal ranger class skills. The highwayman gains a number of ranks at each level equal to 6 + Int modifier.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The highwayman is proficient with all simple and martial weapons, with light armor, but not with shields.
Favored Sneak Attack (Ex): At 1st level, a highwayman selects a creature type from the ranger favored enemies table. He gains a +2 bonus on Bluff, Knowledge, Perception, Sense Motive, and Survival checks against creatures of his selected type. Likewise, whenever these creatures would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the highwayman flanks one of these creatures, he can strike a vital spot for 1d6 points of extra damage (called “precision damage”). Should the highwayman score a critical hit with a favored sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied. Ranged attacks can count as favored sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet. A highwayman may make Knowledge skill checks untrained when attempting to identify these creatures.
At 5th level and every five levels thereafter (10th, 15th, and 20th level), the highwayman may select an additional favored enemy. In addition, at each such interval, the extra damage dealt against any one favored enemy (including the one just selected, if so desired) increases by 1d6, and the bonus on Bluff, Knowledge, Perception, Sense Motive, and Survival checks increases by +2.
If the highwayman chooses humanoids or outsiders as a favored enemy, he must also choose an associated subtype, as indicated on the table below. (Note that there are other types of humanoid to choose from—those called out specifically on the table below are merely the most common.) If a specific creature falls into more than one category of favored enemy, the ranger's bonuses do not stack; he simply uses whichever bonus is higher. This ability replaces favored enemy, and 3rd and 4th favored terrain.
Frightening (Ex): Whenever a highwayman successfully uses Intimidate to demoralize a creature, the duration of the shaken condition is increased by 1 round. In addition, if the target is shaken for 4 or more rounds, the highwayman can instead decide to make the target frightened for 1 round. This ability replaces wild empathy.
Combat Style Feat: This is exactly like the ranger ability of the same name, except that the highwayman adds the Improved Steal and Outflank feats to his list of combat style feats he can choose at 2nd level, and the Enfilading Fire and Greater Steal feats to his list of combat style feats he can choose at 6th level. These are in addition to his normal combat style feats, regardless of the style that he has chosen.
Intimidating Prowess: At 2nd level, a highwayman gains Intimidating Prowess as a bonus feat. This ability, rogue talents, stand and deliver, and advanced talents replace the ranger’s spellcasting ability.
Favored Terrain (Ex): This ability is exactly like the ranger ability of the same name, except that the highwayman can select only one favored terrain to the exclusion to all others.
Favored Brutality (Ex): At 3rd level, whenever a highwayman deals sneak attack damage against a favored enemy, he can choose to forgo 1d6 points of sneak attack damage to make the target sickened for a number of rounds equal to 1/2 her highwayman level. This ability does not stack with itself—only the most recent duration applies. This ability replaces Endurance.
Rogue Talents: Starting at 4th level, a highwayman gains one rogue talent, and an additional rogue talent every four levels thereafter (8th, 12th, 16th, and 20th level).
Ambush (Ex): At 6th level, a highwayman becomes fully practiced in the art of ambushing. When she acts in the surprise round, she can take a move action, standard action, and swift action during the surprise round, not just a move or standard action. This ability replaces the combat style feat gained at 6th level.
Stand and Deliver (Ex): Starting at 6th level, whenever a highwayman hits a favored enemy and deals sneak attack damage, he can forgo 1d6 points of that damage and make a free Intimidate check to demoralize the foe. For every additional 1d6 points of sneak attack damage he forgoes, he receives a +5 circumstance bonus on this check.
Fearsome Attack (Ex): At 8th level, a highwayman can terrify a favored enemy with a single hit. A number of times per day equal to his Charisma modifier (minimum 1), when a highwayman confirms a critical hit and deals sneak attack damage to a favored enemy, he can choose to make the favored enemy frightened for a number of rounds equal to his Charisma modifier (minimum 1). He cannot use this ability in conjunction with a critical feat. This ability replaces swift tracker and 2nd favored terrain.
Advanced Talents: At 12th level, a highwayman can choose advanced rogue talents whenever he could choose a rogue talent, or when he selects the Extra Rogue Talent feat. A highwayman adds the following rogue abilities to the list of advanced talents he may select: Uncanny Dodge and Improved Uncanny Dodge. A stealth mage must select uncanny dodge before selecting improved uncanny dodge. A highwayman treats his level as his rogue level for the purpose of qualifying for talents with level-dependent requirements and calculating the effects of any talent or rogue ability he's chosen.
Camouflage (Ex): This is exactly like the ranger ability of the same name, except that the highwayman gains this ability at 13th level.
Favored Skirmisher (Ex): At 14th level, whenever a highwayman moves more than 10 feet in a round and makes an attack action against a favored enemy, the attack deals sneak attack damage as if the target was flat-footed. If the highwayman makes more than one attack this turn, this ability only applies to the first attack. Foes with uncanny dodge are immune to this ability. This ability replaces the combat style feat gained at 14th level.
Table: Highwayman
Base
Class Attack Fort Ref Will
Level Bonus Save Save Save Special
1st +1 +2 +2 +0 1st favored sneak attack, frightening, track
2nd +2 +3 +3 +0 Combat style feat, intimidating prowess
3rd +3 +3 +3 +1 1st favored terrain, favored brutality
4th +4 +4 +4 +1 Hunter’s bond, rogue talent
5th +5 +4 +4 +1 2nd favored sneak attack
6th +6/+1 +5 +5 +2 Ambush, stand and deliver
7th +7/+2 +5 +5 +2 Woodland stride
8th +8/+3 +6 +6 +2 Fearsome attack, rogue talent
9th +9/+4 +6 +6 +3 Evasion
10th +10/+5 +7 +7 +3 3rd favored sneak attack, combat style feat
11th +11/+6/+1 +7 +7 +3 Quarry
12th +12/+7/+2 +8 +8 +4 Advanced talents, rogue talent
13th +13/+8/+3 +8 +8 +4 Camouflage
14th +14/+9/+4 +9 +9 +4 Favored skirmisher
15th +15/+10/+5 +9 +9 +5 4th favored sneak attack
16th +16/+11/+7/+2 +10 +10 +5 Improved evasion, rogue talent
17th +17/+12/+7/+2 +10 +10 +5 Hide in plain sight
18th +18/+13/+8/+3 +11 +11 +6 Combat style feat
19th +19/+14/+9/+4 +11 +11 +6 Improved quarry
20th +20/+15/+10/+5 +12 +12 +6 5th favored sneak attack, master hunter, rogue talent
#Highwayman
looks good so far, it's nice to see a character who need not jump right into the fray but can get enemies to surrender before bloodshed.
I would wager adding 'Hide In Plain Sight', 'Quarry' and 'Improved Quarry' could be additional rogue talents available to this class maybe?
#Highwayman
looks good so far, it's nice to see a character who need not jump right into the fray but can get enemies to surrender before bloodshed.
I would wager adding 'Hide In Plain Sight', 'Quarry' and 'Improved Quarry' could be additional rogue talents available to this class maybe?
Uh, T! He gets Quarry (11th), Hide in Plain Sight (17th), and Improved Quarry (19th). Look at the table. Remember, if something isn't changed from the primary class, we don't make any comment on the ability, just like archetypes. :D
I think giving them a feat to get around charisma dependency then give them an ability based on it is strange.