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1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
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I have three questions which pertain to grappling, two of which are specific to the Monk Archetype, Tetori.
1) The Tetori Monk has a class feature called Graceful Grappler that provides the Grab special attack at level 8. The class feature also states that they "...can use this ability against creatures his own size or smaller by spending 1 point from his ki pool, or against larger creatures by spending 2 points from his ki pool...". My question is: does the Monk have to use a point of ki in order to have/use Grab at all, or only if needing to grapple equal-sized or larger targets?
2) For the same class feature, Graceful Grappler, has the update to Grab been taken into consideration? Specifically, Grab now allows the creature to use Grab on equal-sized targets. Was the 1 ki point for equal-sized targets supposed to be required in order to overcome the old version of Grab (in which you could only Grab smaller targets) or was it supposed to be required to use Grab at all?
3) Grapple attempts gain bonuses that apply to attack rolls; does this have to be generic attack bonuses, or can it also be attack bonuses applied to Unarmed Strike attacks? For example, would Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike) also give a +1 to Grapple attempts, in addition to +1 to attack rolls with Unarmed Strike? What about an Amulet of Mighty Fists +1-5? Would that give a corresponding bonus to Grapple attempts, or only to attack/damage rolls for Unarmed Strike attacks?
RaizielDragon wrote: I have three questions which pertain to grappling, two of which are specific to the Monk Archetype, Tetori.
1) The Tetori Monk has a class feature called Graceful Grappler that provides the Grab special attack at level 8. The class feature also states that they "...can use this ability against creatures his own size or smaller by spending 1 point from his ki pool, or against larger creatures by spending 2 points from his ki pool...". My question is: does the Monk have to use a point of ki in order to have/use Grab at all, or only if needing to grapple equal-sized or larger targets?
The Grab special attack was errata'd in Bestiary 2 to work against creatures up to your size. You do not need to spend Ki to use it against a creature up to medium size for a medium Tetori. You do need to spend Ki to grapple a large target, and you cannot grapple huge or larger.
RaizielDragon wrote: 2) For the same class feature, Graceful Grappler, has the update to Grab been taken into consideration? Specifically, Grab now allows the creature to use Grab on equal-sized targets. Was the 1 ki point for equal-sized targets supposed to be required in order to overcome the old version of Grab (in which you could only Grab smaller targets) or was it supposed to be required to use Grab at all? The 1 Ki point expenditure was using the old Grab rules.
RaizielDragon wrote: 3) Grapple attempts gain bonuses that apply to attack rolls; does this have to be generic attack bonuses, or can it also be attack bonuses applied to Unarmed Strike attacks? For example, would Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike) also give a +1 to Grapple attempts, in addition to +1 to attack rolls with Unarmed Strike? What about an Amulet of Mighty Fists +1-5? Would that give a corresponding bonus to Grapple attempts, or only to attack/damage rolls for Unarmed Strike attacks? You do not add anything to your grapple check other than your Base Attack Bonus, Strength modifier, size modifier, or other specific feats or features that specifically modify your CMB.
SiliconDon wrote: ...you cannot grapple huge or larger. Why not? It states that you can spend 2 ki to grapple a larger target.
SiliconDon wrote: You do not add anything to your grapple check other than your Base Attack Bonus, Strength modifier, size modifier, or other feats or features that specifically modify your CMB The rules for Combat Maneuvers state that you can "add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects" with the caveat that "these bonuses must be applicable to the weapon or attack used to perform the maneuver."
So, what I'm asking is, if you have a bonus to your Unarmed Strike attack (such as from the Weapon Focus feat, or an enhancement bonus from an Amulet of Mighty Fists), would it count as "an applicable weapon" for making the Grapple check, and therefore would you get those bonuses?
RaizielDragon wrote: 3) Grapple attempts gain bonuses that apply to attack rolls; does this have to be generic attack bonuses, or can it also be attack bonuses applied to Unarmed Strike attacks? For example, would Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike) also give a +1 to Grapple attempts, in addition to +1 to attack rolls with Unarmed Strike? What about an Amulet of Mighty Fists +1-5? Would that give a corresponding bonus to Grapple attempts, or only to attack/damage rolls for Unarmed Strike attacks? Since you can actually take "Weapon Focus: Grapple", I would say that "Weapon Focus: Unarmed strike" would not apply, even if you are using an unarmed strike. If you are using some other weapon that you can grapple with (say, a whip or spiked chain), then weapon focus with that weapon would apply when you use it to initiate a grapple.
Gwen Smith wrote: Since you can actually take "Weapon Focus: Grapple", I would say that "Weapon Focus: Unarmed strike" would not apply, even if you are using an unarmed strike. If you are using some other weapon that you can grapple with (say, a whip or spiked chain), then weapon focus with that weapon would apply when you use it to initiate a grapple. Fair enough. It's what I assumed to begin with; generic bonuses to attack rolls apply to Grapple, but weapon-specific ones do not.
In another thread, someone else said that with the feat Hamatula Strike, you could then apply Unarmed Strike-specific bonuses to the Grapple check (assuming your Unarmed Strike could deal piercing damage and therefore qualify for that feat). Is this correct? Would this then allow weapon-specific bonuses like Weapon Focus or Amulet of Mighty Fists to apply?
You can apply a weapon enhancement bonus to a Combat Maneuver if you are using that weapon to execute the maneuver, such as using a Halberd to Trip your opponent.
One would think that you are using the same hands, feet, elbows, etc. to execute a Grapple as you do to execute an Unarmed Strike, but the Design Team specifically forbade this by inventing a new rule to disallow applying a bonus from the Amulet of Mighty fists to Grapple Checks.
But
As a Tetori, you will have the Grab Ability applied to your Unarmed Strikes, and that means you clearly ARE using your Unarmed Strikes to Grapple, and that means you DO get to apply Weapon Focus Unarmed To your Grapple Checks.
Go Tetori!
Another way to get a bonus is via the Hamatula Strike Feat. If you use a piercing Weapon or if you take a Feat that allows you to do piercing damage with your Unarmed Strikes, such as Snake Style, you can similarly apply any of those bonuses to your Grapple check.
The down side to that being that the bonuses only apply if using the Grab ability or the Hamatula Strike (which is essentially the same as Grab). Which means you have to make a regular attack first. Since Tetori only use the normal Monk BAB when making an attack, you are losing some points there when compared to just starting with a striahgt up Grapple check. So, essentially, you are losing the points difference between your Monk level and your BAB in order to try and gain weapon specific bonuses like Weapon Focus and Amulet of Mighty Fists on the Grapple check you get to make IF you hit the opponent.
Also, this opens the question of: if I use Grab (or Hamatula Strike) and hit, and then make a Grapple check and succeed, do I get to continue to use the weapon specific bonuses on Grapple checks to maintain the grapple?
i want to know if SiliconDon is correct in his first sentence about tetori grab and ki useage!
RaizielDragon wrote: The down side to that being that the bonuses only apply if using the Grab ability or the Hamatula Strike (which is essentially the same as Grab). Which means you have to make a regular attack first. Since Tetori only use the normal Monk BAB when making an attack, you are losing some points there when compared to just starting with a striahgt up Grapple check. So, essentially, you are losing the points difference between your Monk level and your BAB in order to try and gain weapon specific bonuses like Weapon Focus and Amulet of Mighty Fists on the Grapple check you get to make IF you hit the opponent.
Also, this opens the question of: if I use Grab (or Hamatula Strike) and hit, and then make a Grapple check and succeed, do I get to continue to use the weapon specific bonuses on Grapple checks to maintain the grapple?
The Unarmed Strikes have the Grab Ability, and the Grab Ability applies a +4 to ALL your Grapple Checks, not just the Free Action attack made in conjunction with an Unarmed Strike melee attack. You are clearly using US to make the Grapple, and you clearly get the Weapon Focus Bonus.
I don't think you need any points in your Ki Pool to use the Grab ability.
There is no size limit on creatures you can Grapple, Pin, Move, Damage, or Tie Up.
There is a size limit [your size or smaller] on which creatures you can use the free-action-start-a-grapple granted by the Grab ability. You can spend Ki Points on pushing up the size limit.
i need clarification to use it in a PFS game
@w01fe01: This should lead you to the FAQ that says you normally make your Combat Maneuver Checks unarmed.
http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/v5748dyo5lcom?Combat-Maneuvers-and-Weapon-Speci al-Features
You might find this interesting.
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qsrb&page=1?Amulet-of-Mighty-Fists-and-Gra ppling-Can-We
This should lead you to the Universal Monster Rules in the Bestiary. The different terms, like Grab, are in alphabetical order.
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/universalMonsterRules.html
Read the description of Grab, and you will see that the attack that it is attached to conveys a bonus to rolls to initiate and maintain a grapple. And that implies you are using that attack--crabs' claws, a tentacle, or in your case the Tetori's Unarmed Strikes--to make the Grapple, that that weapon is NOT incidental to making the grapple check, but is an essential mover and shaker in the maneuver (+4 bonus, yo!).
Also, this edition of Grab has been updated with the size limitations.
The description of Tetori is given in
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateCombat/classArchetypes/monk.html
But I consider it unlikely you need that url. It does say you need to spend a Ki point to use Grab at all, and spending extra ki lets you use it on larger creatures. Interesting.
As to the fact that there is no size restriction on Grappling in general, that's problematic: proving a negative. I can refer you to the descriptions of the Combat Maneuvers. Bull Rush, Disarm, Grapple, Trip. You will see where it says some of those maneuvers have hard size limits imposed on them, and some of them don't. Grapples don't.
On a personal note, the hard size restriction on any Combat Maneuvers is a rule I particularly detest.
Hope this helps.
At no point in /any/ Combat maneuver check do you ever use Weapon enhancement modifiers other than trip/disarm/ grapple. There is a Faq about it in regards to the AMF and a giant thread that i have to take asprin just thinking about.
You can apply Weapon focus grapple and the +4 from the grab ability however and any bonuses from positioning such as flanking etc. But at no point are you using Unarmd strikes or any other weapon with a grapple unless it has special rules to imply such.
Mojorat,
That is patently false in the face of the FAQ I posted. It clearly says that if you use a +1 Halberd to Trip someone, you apply that +1 enhancement to your trip attempt.
Okay, I found out that for some reason, the url I just referred to leads nowhere.
I found it again on Paizo Blog doing a search for Combat Maneuvers.
And I iterate that the Grab ability states that it is applied to a Natrual Weapon, and since it grants a +4 to ALL grapple checks, it is clearly not "incidental" to the Grapple.
Scott Wilhelm wrote: Mojorat,
That is patently false in the face of the FAQ I posted. It clearly says that if you use a +1 Halberd to Trip someone, you apply that +1 enhancement to your trip attempt.
Yes and that applies fully to trip disarm and sunder. "... other than trip disarm and sunder.."
Unarmed strikes do not apply to grapple rules. There may be an exception for grab but its early and I'm sleepy.
The general rule is grapples are not unarmed strikes bonuses to unarmed strikes never apply to them. If you used a +5 garrot all its bonuses would apply.
It clearly doesn't "never apply." If you are attacking with an unarmed strike that has the grab ability, and you are using the free action to initiate a grapple, it clearly does apply. If you are using the Hamatula Strike Feat in conjunction with your weapon, even an unarmed strike, you are clearly using the Unarmed Strike to Grapple with.
I know Unarmed Strikes are bludgeoning and not piercing, unless they are. I usually take Snake Style.
Now the free-action grapple roll is not the same as the global +4 that Grab gives on all grapple checks, but are you saying that an octopus is not USING it's tentacles in a grapple? Nor a Crab it Claws? Even if the grapple does not begin in with a standard attack roll, it is entirely counterintuitive that either those claws or tentacles are incidental to the Grapple.
The effect of the Disarm quality of a weapon is that it grants a +2 bonus to attempts to Disarm. And the effect of the Grab ability is that it grants a +4 attempt to Grapple rolls.
Scott Wilhelm wrote: It clearly doesn't "never apply." If you are attacking with an unarmed strike that has the grab ability, and you are using the free action to initiate a grapple, it clearly does apply. If you are using the Hamatula Strike Feat in conjunction with your weapon, even an unarmed strike, you are clearly using the Unarmed Strike to Grapple with.
I know Unarmed Strikes are bludgeoning and not piercing, unless they are. I usually take Snake Style.
Now the free-action grapple roll is not the same as the global +4 that Grab gives on all grapple checks, but are you saying that an octopus is not USING it's tentacles in a grapple? Nor a Crab it Claws? Even if the grapple does not begin in with a standard attack roll, it is entirely counterintuitive that either those claws or tentacles are incidental to the Grapple.
The effect of the Disarm quality of a weapon is that it grants a +2 bonus to attempts to Disarm. And the effect of the Grab ability is that it grants a +4 attempt to Grapple rolls.
You should really read this thread : Amulet of might fists and grappling
It was discussed pretty well there.
Jinjifra wrote: Scott Wilhelm wrote: It clearly doesn't "never apply." If you are attacking with an unarmed strike that has the grab ability, and you are using the free action to initiate a grapple, it clearly does apply. If you are using the Hamatula Strike Feat in conjunction with your weapon, even an unarmed strike, you are clearly using the Unarmed Strike to Grapple with.
I know Unarmed Strikes are bludgeoning and not piercing, unless they are. I usually take Snake Style.
Now the free-action grapple roll is not the same as the global +4 that Grab gives on all grapple checks, but are you saying that an octopus is not USING it's tentacles in a grapple? Nor a Crab it Claws? Even if the grapple does not begin in with a standard attack roll, it is entirely counterintuitive that either those claws or tentacles are incidental to the Grapple.
The effect of the Disarm quality of a weapon is that it grants a +2 bonus to attempts to Disarm. And the effect of the Grab ability is that it grants a +4 attempt to Grapple rolls.
You should really read this thread : Amulet of might fists and grappling
It was discussed pretty well there. Have YOU read this thread? If you have, then you should have realized that I was a contributor to this thread.
I did stop reading it after the Dev. Team ruling, though. Are you saying that they further ruled on the Grab Ability?
Scott Wilhelm wrote: Jinjifra wrote: Scott Wilhelm wrote: It clearly doesn't "never apply." If you are attacking with an unarmed strike that has the grab ability, and you are using the free action to initiate a grapple, it clearly does apply. If you are using the Hamatula Strike Feat in conjunction with your weapon, even an unarmed strike, you are clearly using the Unarmed Strike to Grapple with.
I know Unarmed Strikes are bludgeoning and not piercing, unless they are. I usually take Snake Style.
Now the free-action grapple roll is not the same as the global +4 that Grab gives on all grapple checks, but are you saying that an octopus is not USING it's tentacles in a grapple? Nor a Crab it Claws? Even if the grapple does not begin in with a standard attack roll, it is entirely counterintuitive that either those claws or tentacles are incidental to the Grapple.
The effect of the Disarm quality of a weapon is that it grants a +2 bonus to attempts to Disarm. And the effect of the Grab ability is that it grants a +4 attempt to Grapple rolls.
You should really read this thread : Amulet of might fists and grappling
It was discussed pretty well there. Have YOU read this thread? If you have, then you should have realized that I was a contributor to this thread.
I did stop reading it after the Dev. Team ruling, though. Are you saying that they further ruled on the Grab Ability? No all I was saying was they ruled on it and you weren't adding anything to this that wasn't covered in detail in that thread.
Alright ill spell this out once more clearly. Pathfinder is a game of permissions. You do things you have permission to do. You cannot do things for which permissions is given.
The rules as they exist you generally only apply weapon enhancements when either a) an maneuver is done in place of an attack. Or b) explicit permission has been given. Grapple with a garrot or drag using a weapon with the trip maneuver.
So you need to find somewhere that expressly gives permission to use weapon enhancements with the grab maneuver. Grab does not replace an attack. It is a rider on too of an attack I am unaware of grab being given permission to add weapon enhancemens.
There may have been suggestion about it in the amf thread but even thinking about the thread brings on a migraine.
Don't you only get enhancement bonuses (boni?) on weapons with the combat maneuver qualities. For example a +2 sword won't help you disarm people because it doesn't have the disarming property.
So do we assume that unarmed strikes have all of these 'trip, disarm, grapple' etc qualities and the bonuses that go along with them? (Free +2 to disarm). Because that's not true as per the ultimate equipment book.
That being said, I add all my rad enhancement bonuses grappling people with my whip/greater whip mastery feat because, even though it never mentions it, I feel like its kind of implied. You could argue that for the monk as well, for this specific archetype.
You get enhancements on any attack that qualifies the weapon to be used. You don't need trip disarm or sunder qualities on your weapon. The only weapon quality UAS basis simple
After looking over the links provided, I'm fairly confident about the following:
1) You do not normally get Unarmed Strike attack bonuses on Grapple checks. No matter what.
2) A GM can rule, in certain circumstances, that a particular bonus to a weapon WOULD add to a particular Combat Maneuver check. A good example of such a certain circumstance would be someone with the Grab ability or the Hamatula Strike feat. In both cases, the player gets a free Grapple check after making a successful Unarmed Strike attack; the implication being that the Grapple is being directly initiated by the Unarmed Strike weapon and should therefore get any attack bonuses of that weapon. The bonuses would only apply on those specific Grapple checks; not on further Grapple checks to maintain the Grapple, and not on Grapple checks you make if you decide to just attempt the Grapple check directly, rather than attack and try to use Grab (or Hamatula Strike). The bonuses would also not apply to your CMD to prevent someone from escaping. This is obviously up to DM fiat, but I don't see any reason a DM wouldn't find this acceptable. You are building in some redundancy where-in you have to make both an Attack Roll against AC AND a Grapple Check against CMD in order to get the extra bonuses to the Grapple check, so I think it's a fair trade-off.
3) The +4 bonus from Grab applies to all attempts to Grapple, not just those made with the free Grapple attempt granted by Grab.
4) Any further argument on the matter is pointless because the Pathfinder team already ruled on it, stating explicitly that the bonuses would not apply, and the only "out" that they've provided involves DM fiat. So if you are of the mind set that the bonuses should apply, you will have to state your case to your DM; not to the people on these boards.
That all takes care of my 3rd question, but I still think the wording on Graceful Grappler needs some clarification. My current interpretation of it is thus:
"At 8th level, a tetori gains the grab special attack when using unarmed strikes..."
Here, the Tetori gains the Grab special ability (not sure why it's called a special attack; maybe also out of date?). The Grab special ability states that the creature can make a free Grapple attempt against a target, of equal-size or smaller (this was an update to the Grab ability; before it was not equal-sized, only smaller), when they hit with the specified weapon. In this case, Unarmed Strike is the specified weapon.
"...and can use this ability against creatures his own size or smaller by spending 1 point from his ki pool..."
This was previously included to cover the pre-errata Grab ability. It only required 1 ki point, as less effort was needed to use the ability on equal-sized targets vs larger targets. This part is no longer needed due to the update to Grab which automatically allows equal-sized targets.
"...or against larger creatures by spending 2 points from his ki pool."
This is to allow Tetoris to still use their one-trick pony (Grappling) on larger targets. This is not to say that they could not already Grapple larger targets; there is no size restriction on Grappling, so they can always Grapple larger targets. This was included so Tetori could Grab larger targets. I think it is still fine at 2 ki points, though one could make the argument that the developers intended there to be an intermediate step at which only 1 ki point was needed, and so it could be reworded to something like the following:
"...and can use this ability against creatures one size larger than him by spending 1 point from his ki pool or against larger creatures by spending 2 points from his ki pool."
I don't see much of a problem with it either way. If you are very worried about the ki point expenditure, take a feat to make your Unarmed Strike deal piercing damage and take the Hamatula Strike feat; it does not have a size restriction. You don't have to use the -4 Grapple attempt because you can already make a regular Grapple check.
The FAQ was saying that the weapon bonus isn't applied when the weapon is merely incidental to the maneuver, and that is clearly not the case of a natural attack with the Grab ability when Grappling.
I dare you, Mojorat to say that an Octopus's tentacles are incidental to the octopus grappling.
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