If a player has Dimentional Savant do they count as flanking with themselves? If so, would the feat Outflank function? I get the feeling the answer is no, but I wanted to check.
Dimensional Savant can allow you to flank with yourself, but remember you don't provide flanking until you attack from a square. So you attack (start providing flanking from that square, move to square on opposite side of creature, and attack again. That second attack will benefit as thought the creature were flanked.
However, Outflank specifically says you and an ally. In this specific case, I don't think you can count as your own ally and outflank will not function with you being able to flank due to dimensional savant.
I'm not 100% sure though.
Dimensional Savant can allow you to flank with yourself, but remember you don't provide flanking until you attack from a square. So you attack (start providing flanking from that square, move to square on opposite side of creature, and attack again. That second attack will benefit as thought the creature were flanked.
However, Outflank specifically says you and an ally. In this specific case, I don't think you can count as your own ally and outflank will not function with you being able to flank due to dimensional savant.
I'm not 100% sure though.
So, you are saying for outflank to work with DS I need to attack the target first then move to flank with myself?
|
No, I think he is saying that in general, the first attack made using DS does nit benefit from flanking unless there is an ally on the opposite border to provide said flank.
I agree with that. Only the second and subsequent attacks made using DS would benefit from the flank bonus.
What I'm not sure of is whether you can count as your own ally for the purposes of Outflank.
Dimensional Savant can allow you to flank with yourself, but remember you don't provide flanking until you attack from a square. So you attack (start providing flanking from that square, move to square on opposite side of creature, and attack again. That second attack will benefit as thought the creature were flanked.
However, Outflank specifically says you and an ally. In this specific case, I don't think you can count as your own ally and outflank will not function with you being able to flank due to dimensional savant.
I'm not 100% sure though.
So, you are saying for outflank to work with DS I need to attack the target first then move to flank with myself?
No. I'm saying I don't think Outflank works at all unless you have an ally with the feat, who is also flanking the opponent. And for this purpose I don't think you count as your own ally.
In order for Dimensional Savant to allow you to flank at all, you must make an attack, after which you provide a flanking from the square you made an attack in.
Dimensional Savant
You flash into and out of reality so quickly it is impossible to tell exactly where you are at any given time.
Prerequisites: Dimensional Agility, Dimensional Assault, Dimensional Dervish, ability to use the abundant step class feature or cast dimension door, base attack bonus +9.
Benefit: While using the Dimensional Dervish feat, you provide flanking from all squares you attack from. Flanking starts from the moment you make an attack until the start of your next turn. You can effectively flank with yourself and with multiple allies when using this feat.
Dimensional Savant can allow you to flank with yourself, but remember you don't provide flanking until you attack from a square. So you attack (start providing flanking from that square, move to square on opposite side of creature, and attack again. That second attack will benefit as thought the creature were flanked.
However, Outflank specifically says you and an ally. In this specific case, I don't think you can count as your own ally and outflank will not function with you being able to flank due to dimensional savant.
I'm not 100% sure though.
From the FAQ
http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9nda
Ally: Do you count as your own ally?
You count as your own ally unless otherwise stated or if doing so would make no sense or be impossible. Thus, "your allies" almost always means the same as "you and your allies."
Dimensional Savant can allow you to flank with yourself, but remember you don't provide flanking until you attack from a square. So you attack (start providing flanking from that square, move to square on opposite side of creature, and attack again. That second attack will benefit as thought the creature were flanked.
However, Outflank specifically says you and an ally. In this specific case, I don't think you can count as your own ally and outflank will not function with you being able to flank due to dimensional savant.
I'm not 100% sure though.
From the FAQ
http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9nda
Ally: Do you count as your own ally?
You count as your own ally unless otherwise stated or if doing so would make no sense or be impossible. Thus, "your allies" almost always means the same as "you and your allies."
Right, and as I said the feat Outflank is a Team Work feat which says "you and an ally". That is why I think this is a grey area that does not necessarily fall under that FAQ because it could fall under the "makes no sense" clause. It is not clear either way.
That is why, I specifically said I don't believe you can count as your own ally in this situation.
I concur with ohako... if you can provide flanking to yourself, why couldn't you provide superior flanking for yourself if you were trained to do so?
Also strict RAW seems to support it, as the self flanking of DS seems to prevent the "no sense or be impossible" clause of the FAQ from kicking in.
|
|
Hmm. Seems I was wrong about Dimensional Savant only providing the flank bonus after the first attack... It specifically says flanking starts from the moment you attack until the start of your next turn (which includes AoO's take after your action I believe).
Let's post up Outflank for ease of reference;
Outflank (Combat, Teamwork)
You look for every edge when flanking an enemy.
Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +4.
Benefit: Whenever you and an ally who also has this feat are flanking the same creature, your flanking bonus on attack rolls increases to +4. In addition, whenever you score a critical hit against the flanked creature, it provokes an attack of opportunity from your ally.
Hmm. I'm torn. The FAQ leaves some room for interpretation/discretion. I can see both sides. Claxon has a good point - Outflank says "you and an ally" which implies two persons.
The FAQ says "your allies" almost always means "you and your allies". It doesn't say it means "you and yourself".
If it's a home game I'd discuss with your GM. If it's for PFS I'd expect table variation and if the table I was sitting down at didn't see it the way I did I'd just accept it and not argue the point.
|
|
To be honest Kazaan I hadn't even considered the AoO aspect granted on a Critical hit by Outflank... I definitely think that isn't permitted by RAW as it just doesn't make sense that you can hand yourself AoO's... Then again - can't you do just that with Butterfly Sting?
The more I consider this, the more of a hot mess it appears to be.
If you count as an ally to yourself, then 'you and your allies' means the same thing as 'you and you'.
If you count as an ally to yourself, then 'you and your allies' means the same thing as 'you and you'.
This is how I see it.
If you can count as your own ally for gaining the flanking bonus, then outflank makes that bonus greater. Also if you scoring a critical hit supplied the person on the other side of them with an AoO, then even if that other person is you, that AoO is granted....because simply put, you ARE that other person in this situation...
Magus can accomplish this easily by simply NOT using spell combat that turn...but no TWFing can be done unless you have more than two hands naturally...*caugh* Kasatha *caugh*