| 4 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Self-explanatory question.
I am revisiting my Two-Shield Martial build that takes 10 levels into a Witchguard Infiltrator Ranger and 10 levels into an Invulnerable Urban Barbarian. I realized that with a 20 point buy, I can build 20 Dexterity (in your face TWF pre-reqs! Plus higher AC, Reflex Saves, you name it!), retain a 13 Strength for Power Attack, 13 Constitution, and 14 Wisdom for spellcasting (and so I'm not a drooling bag of pus when it comes to being controlled). Intelligence is at 8 and Charisma is at 7, but eh, not everybody can be super-smart and pretty or charming.
However, when I originally made my Two-Shield Martial, he would end up taking Double Slice so he gets full Strength damage to his off-hand shield. This is where a problem is posed...
If I am going to swap to Dexterity and use Agile Light Shields with Weapon Finesse, I no longer have a good Strength score to swap to, and even though half (+5 Modifier is still +2, compared to the +1 Strength I would have) is still better, my off-hand attacks really suffer in the static damage department, something which I can't afford, since your statistic modifier is probably going to be your second-strongest modifier (Power Attack being ahead of it, though usually not the case for off-hand attacks).
Reviewing the Double Slice text:
Add your Strength bonus to damage rolls made with your off-hand weapon.
It says here you add your full Strength modifier to off-hand damage.
Reviewing the Agile property text:
This enhancement can only be placed on a melee weapon which is usable with the Weapon Finesse feat.
Agile weapons are unusually well balanced and responsive. A wielder with the Weapon Finesse feat can choose to apply her Dexterity modifier to damage rolls with the weapon in place of her Strength modifier. This modifier to damage is not increased for two-handed weapons, but is still reduced for off-hand weapons.
The bolded part makes this tricky. It first says you use your Dexterity modifier in place of your Strength modifier. With Double Slice, this would mean that you would have your full Dexterity modifier in place, since it's used in place of your Strength modifier, which is now normally at 100% for off-hand attacks. It then says the new modifier retains being reduced for off-hand weapons.
Would the language of Double Slice circumvent the reduced effectiveness via the Agile Property, or does this equate to being either Full Strength or Half Dexterity?
I'm not really sure, but I don't see anything that contradict this combo.
The "still reduce" seems to be linked to how a off-hand attack works. Double-slice modifies it so here you go, with a Dex-powered killing machine.
I'm not sure. I could see it both ways. I am interested in seeing other people's answers.
I'm not really sure, but I don't see anything that contradict this combo.
The "still reduce" seems to be linked to how a off-hand attack works. Double-slice modifies it so here you go, with a Dex-powered killing machine.
I mean, that's the problem. RAW, it seems like you either add your full Strength modifier to attacks (since Agile uses [Half] Dexterity in place of the otherwise apparent Strength modifier), or you have the Half Dexterity. (One crazy interpretation is you use Full Strength and Half Dexterity, but I'm not that ridiculous.)
But is that really RAI? It seems more like the Agile property is reflecting to simulate the standard mechanics of main-hand/off-hand weapons, and Double Slice is a feat that adjusts this formula regarding off-hand, since, as HectorVivis mentioned, the language says it's "still reduced," implying it's simply reinstating main-hand/off-hand weapon rules.
At the same time though, both are specific exceptions to a general rule, so the bigger question is which one takes precedence?
Double Slice feat calls out STR specificly.
By RAW it would not work.
My 2 cp.
I see it more like that:
Agile just ask you to reduce you Dex modifier according to the off-hand limitation. Note that It doens't tell you it's a half modifier, that would be problematic.
Double-Slice specifically changes the usual *0.5 modifier to a =1 modifier.
One way or the other, it's the same thing, you just change the usual Str bonus to an equal Dex bonus.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
At the same time though, both are specific exceptions to a general rule, so the bigger question is which one takes precedence?
I agree that's the crux of the issue. I believe the Agile property is a more recent addition to the rules than Doubleslice; which, if I recall correctly is in the CRB.
If the intent was for DoubleSlice & Agile to work in concert I think they would have added a Special line: "If you have taken the Doubleslice Feat, you may apply your full DEX to off-hand damage". Or something like that.
However, I'm in part basing my conclusion on the historical precedence of martial characters routinely getting the short end of the "balance" stick. The Devs probably feel that DEX for initiative, AC, Reflex Saves, ranged attack rolls, melee attack rolls (with a 1 feat investment), and full off-hand damage (with 2 feat + magical property investment), would be "unbalanced".
Do I buy it? Not really.
Am I certain my position is correct? Nope.
Would I like to see this combo work? Yes.
Does history tell me that a FAQ or errata would provide a favourable resolution? Um, No.
it depends on the order of operation, which is not defined in pathfinder.
Either the agile weapon property text replaces double slice and the abilities don't work together, or double slice works on the (now modified) agile weapon property and they stack fine.
There probably isn't any RAI in this case, because the person who wrote the agile weapon property probably didn't consider the interaction. Given the lack of operative order, there's also no way of defining RAW. Thus, you just have to make a judgement call.
It looks to me like the text in agile weapon is reminder text purely there so that people remember to halve DEX for off hand weapons and doesn't interact with double slice at all. The word 'replace' in this case implies that any interaction with damage on this weapon should use [str] now use [dex]. Thus, you would be getting 1x dex bonus, like what hectorvivis suggest.
Well, it doesn't specifically say "use half damage on off hand weapons". It just says "reduced for off hand weapons". Because of that, I would say that they mean "apply the normal reduction for off hand weapons here." Otherwise, by RAW, we don't know how much to reduce the damage by, which doesn't make a lot of sense.
Because of that, I would argue that Double Slice removes/changes the normal reduction for off-hand weapons, and therefore would apply to Agile weapons and the Dex bonus. Otherwise, you end up with convoluted issues of "Do I add Str and Dex?" and such, usually, the rules aren't intended to that bizarre. I would allow it, and I could probably convince most GMs I know to do so, also.
Now, Power Attack's damage is always halved on off-hand weapons, even if you have Double Slice. So is Piranha Strike. Most of the time, a TWF is just better off without these two feats because of that.
Double slice does not interact with the agile property at all. Neither the feat or the weapon property have special rules adressing eachother ergo they do not interact.
Double slice does not interact with the agile property at all. Neither the feat or the weapon property have special rules adressing eachother ergo they do not interact.
Pathfinder is a game of synergies and most of them don't particularly spell out that they work together.
Anyway, I read the qualifier on Agile as saying it has a unique limitation with two handed weapons, but functions as normal (is "still" reduced...) for off-hand attacks. If that's the case then the second part would seem to only be reminder text, and the change of the base .5 strength rule by Double Slice would apply to Agile.
Actually pathfinder is a game of permissions. You need permission ro do things. Double slice is changing permission on a stat an agile weapon no longer uses. You need permission somewhere letting them interact.
How does Agile no longer use the stat? It's still strength, just strength without a limitation. The only thing potentially changing the equation at all is what appears to be reminder text on agile about how off-hand damage works, which is then changed by double slice.
RAW-wise, yeah I see your point. Reminds me of the Rage Power Animal Fury which RAW seems to say bite attack functions as a primary attack that uses the strength modifier of a secondary.
|
Double Slice feat calls out STR specificly.
By RAW it would not work.My 2 cp.
Double slice allows full strength offhand. Agile replaces STR with DEX, but assumes the normal rules for offhand attacks.
It is a case of general vs. specific. Both feats modify the general case (modifiers used and how they are applied) assumed by each other.
|
|
Actually pathfinder is a game of permissions. You need permission ro do things. Double slice is changing permission on a stat an agile weapon no longer uses. You need permission somewhere letting them interact.
You do have permission.
Agile is changing the stat used and restates the general case for offhand modifiers.
Double Slice changes the offhand modifier and restates the general case for stats used.
The specific implementation of each feat is changing the general case assumed by the other.
Now, Power Attack's damage is always halved on off-hand weapons, even if you have Double Slice. So is Piranha Strike. Most of the time, a TWF is just better off without these two feats because of that.
I usually make an effort to pick up Arcane Strike.
No your not actually using strength at all. Yourbusing dexterity which double.slice does not change.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
No your not actually using strength at all. Yourbusing dexterity which double.slice does not change.
Agile replaces strength on damage rolls and Double Slice is all about strength on damage rolls. How are they not connected?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If the feat said you did full damage using your off hand in a manner that did not specifically call out strength I would agree, but because it does, the answer is no. I don't think it is broken, and I would probably even allow it, but I don't think it is supported by RAW. RAI, it can't really be proven.
As an example if I use intelligence to boost my acrobatics check, and there is another ability that says to add +5 to any ability roll modified by dex then I can't use it. The reason is that dex is not the qualifying attribute anymore. Now if there is another ability that says add +5 to any ability modified by intelligence I could use that because intelligence is now modifying the acrobatics check.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It still seems as simple as:
Double Slice says you can use full strength -> Agile says you can use Dex instead of Str -> You can use full dex.
I really don't see anything there to contradict it. I also don't see how the hypothetical scenario is meant to be analogous to the current discussion. Agile already links strength to dexterity and Double Slice modifies how strength can be used. It chains together. Your hypothetical lacks that connector, hence potential RAW issues, but this situation has one.
It still seems as simple as:
Double Slice says you can use full strength -> Agile says you can use Dex instead of Str -> You can use full dex.
I really don't see anything there to contradict it. I also don't see how the hypothetical scenario is meant to be analogous to the current discussion. Agile already links strength to dexterity and Double Slice modifies how strength can be used. It chains together. Your hypothetical lacks that connector, hence potential RAW issues, but this situation has one.
Because one is not the other, and by RAW it does not work.
So what if a new feat said you can use your full dex mod with your off-hand.
Are you trying to say you could use the new feat AND double slice?
I doubt most people would agree that both qualify since each feat is calling out a different attribute.
|
Agile allows you to replace STR with DEX whenever performing a damage roll, however that STR modifier factors into the calculation.
Double Slice allows you to add full STR (rather than 0.5) when performing a damage roll for an off-hand attack.
To my reading, they interact to give full DEX on off-hand damage (boost STR to 100% and then replace STR with DEX).
The other option is 50% DEX (as listed for off-hand on agile) and 50% STR to the roll (which is the improvement given by Double Slice as you've replaced the original 50% with DEX), which doesn't really make any sense.
I think your reading of this is going to be impacted by the order of precedence you apply these two effects in.
Normal: Str to damage rolls, 1/2 Str to offhand
Double Slice: Add Full Str to off hand weapon
Agile: Use Dex in place of Str when rolling damage
If you apply them in that order, then it seems pretty straight forward to apply full DEX.
The question is really:
Does the AGILE ENCHANTMENT treat all instances of STR to DAMAGE as being replaced by DEX to DAMAGE?
Because Double Slice modifies the normal rules for STR to DAMAGE allowing full STR, you should replace the normal off-hand damage rule. That is what the feat does. Once that restriction has been removed (for your character) then there is no half-strength restriction for agile to interact with (the language of the enchantment is the damage is STILL reduced). If there is no reduction, then AGILE no longer has anything for the modifier of STILL to apply to.
Based upon that reading (and I think the English language), if you have Double-Slice and Agile, you deal full DEX damage with your off-hand weapon.
|
|
This modifier to damage is not increased for two-handed weapons, but is still reduced for off-hand weapons
That seems pretty clear to me. If the portion after the comma is truly only a reminder of the "general" rule (as some are claiming), and not a limitation like the portion before the comma, the Agile property specifically screws over Elven Curveblade users.
I noticed nobody replied to my last post.
While this doesn't answer the agile + double slice question, it is worth noting that "shield" is a magic item slot, so you can only use one magic shield.
You can use more than one shield, but one only will will have an affect, but nice catch for the purpose of this discussion.
Of course, a character may carry or possess as many items of the same type as he wishes. However, additional items beyond those in the slots listed above have no effect.
I'd rule it works in my table.
Simply because of this in place of the agile feat is substituting whatever strength modifier you get with your dex modifier.
Double slice is a feat that eliminates the damage reduction for off-hand weapons. Allowing you to attack with full modifiers.
While this doesn't answer the agile + double slice question, it is worth noting that "shield" is a magic item slot, so you can only use one magic shield.You can use more than one shield, but one only will will have an affect, but nice catch for the purpose of this discussion.
Of course, a character may carry or possess as many items of the same type as he wishes. However, additional items beyond those in the slots listed above have no effect.
Which introduces the completely different question: does a shield enhanced as a weapon (rather than a shield) still use the shield magic item slot?
Depending on the answer, I can see a lot of unhappy dual-shield builds out there.
I think your reading of this is going to be impacted by the order of precedence you apply these two effects in.
Normal: Str to damage rolls, 1/2 Str to offhand
Double Slice: Add Full Str to off hand weapon
Agile: Use Dex in place of Str when rolling damageIf you apply them in that order, then it seems pretty straight forward to apply full DEX.
The question is really:
Does the AGILE ENCHANTMENT treat all instances of STR to DAMAGE as being replaced by DEX to DAMAGE?
Because Double Slice modifies the normal rules for STR to DAMAGE allowing full STR, you should replace the normal off-hand damage rule. That is what the feat does. Once that restriction has been removed (for your character) then there is no half-strength restriction for agile to interact with (the language of the enchantment is the damage is STILL reduced). If there is no reduction, then AGILE no longer has anything for the modifier of STILL to apply to.
Based upon that reading (and I think the English language), if you have Double-Slice and Agile, you deal full DEX damage with your off-hand weapon.
This is the order I would GM it on. After all you always have your feat. and it would apply any other weapon that qualifies. The addition of the agile weapon only enhances what you can already do as a character (with feats)
I see no rules support for this being allowed, and I think my post using an new feat shows that, but like I said, I would probably allow it because of all the hoops TWF'ers have to jump through so it is not really a big deal.
I see no rules support for this being allowed, and I think my post using an new feat shows that, but like I said, I would probably allow it because of all the hoops TWF'ers have to jump through so it is not really a big deal.
Eh, I don't see it as proof, to be honest. The actual existence of such a feat would necessarily prove that this combination doesn't work. However, the lack of existence of such a feat does not prove anything.
To me the synergy seems clear. One says use DEX in place of STR for damage. The other says that the typical reduction of your STR bonus for damage on an off-hand attack is ignored.
I disagree that RAW clearly says no. At best it's ambiguous and my impression would be that RAI implies yes more strongly than it implies no (implications coming from, for instance, Weapon Finesse allowing the use of DEX on combat maneuvers that can be substituted for attacks or a lore oracle with sidestep losing his/her CHA bonus to AC when flat-footed because CHA is used "in place of" DEX - as Agile does for DEX and STR for weapon damage).
Similarly, I am unconvinced by the argument that it does not work because Double Slice specifically calls out STR. Double Slice specifically calls out strength because that is the ordinary state. Feats don't tend to make mention of nonstandard cases in regards to rules interactions, similar to how classes are written with the presumption that characters are single-classed.
I would most definitely allow it. And I am of the belief (at least at this point) that this is how the rules are intended to interact.
I see no rules support for this being allowed, and I think my post using an new feat shows that, but like I said, I would probably allow it because of all the hoops TWF'ers have to jump through so it is not really a big deal.
I looked at the argument and didn't respond because it seemed like a non-sequitir.
IF there was a new feat that allowed you to apply your full DEX bonus to an off-hand weapon I would agree with you. There isn't one.
I think the rules for it working are baked in to the existing rules.
It's like IF there was a feat that said "You can add 1.5x STR damage when using an Elven Curved blade." I would be forced to assume that an Elven Curved blade otherwise does not get that 1.5 STR to damage - even though as it stands I am sure it does. Because there is the presence of a feat, I am forced to assume that the lack of this feat means I don't get to do what I otherwise thought I could do.
The problem with the "new feat" argument is that you can effectively apply it to anything. If there was a feat that said "you can now take a diagonal 5 foot step," I would have to rethink what the rule was, because I assumed diagonal was adjacent.
Based off of the rules that we have, and the way they interact, agile should allow for full DEX to damage if you have double-slice, I think it is 100% RAW (until they make that other feat).
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If the feat said you did full damage using your off hand in a manner that did not specifically call out strength I would agree, but because it does, the answer is no. I don't think it is broken, and I would probably even allow it, but I don't think it is supported by RAW. RAI, it can't really be proven.
As an example if I use intelligence to boost my acrobatics check, and there is another ability that says to add +5 to any ability roll modified by dex then I can't use it. The reason is that dex is not the qualifying attribute anymore. Now if there is another ability that says add +5 to any ability modified by intelligence I could use that because intelligence is now modifying the acrobatics check.
I agree with this as far as it goes, but I don't this is an exact analogy. In this example the bonus is to "any dex check", not "to Acrobatics. Double Slice only affects your strength damage on your off-hand weapon, and Agile only replaces str on weapon damage.
This situation is more like an ability that says "when you make an Acrobatics roll, treat your Dex modifier as 4 higher." Now, if you replace Dex with Int, do you still get the bonus? Does "your Dex modifier" mean "your Dex modifier (or whatever other stat you happen to be using for Acrobatics rolls)" or "your Dex modifier (and only your Dex modifier, and if you use another stat for Acrobatics, then it sucks to be you)"?
It's a similar situation, I think, to spells that say "use your Wisdom to attack" or "add your Wisdom modifier to damage" because it was originally designed for clerics. If another class with a different spell casting stat gets access to that ability, does the other class use their primary spell casting stat or are they just stuck with Wisdom? Based on this FAQ, they are just stuck with Wisdom, but it also says "it's a perfectly reasonable house rule" to use the primary casting stat. It just seems like a very thin line between "perfectly reasonable house rule" and "table variation."
I suspect this issue probable falls on that same line.
I agree with this as far as it goes, but I don't this is an exact analogy. In this example the bonus is to "any dex check", not "to Acrobatics. Double Slice only affects your strength damage on your off-hand weapon, and Agile only replaces str on weapon damage.
This situation is more like an ability that says "when you make an Acrobatics roll, treat your Dex modifier as 4 higher." Now, if you replace Dex with Int, do you still get the bonus? Does "your Dex modifier" mean "your Dex modifier (or whatever other stat you happen to be using for Acrobatics rolls)" or "your Dex modifier (and only your Dex modifier, and if you use another stat for Acrobatics, then it sucks to be you)"?
It's a similar situation, I think, to spells that say "use your Wisdom to attack" or "add your Wisdom modifier to damage" because it was originally designed for clerics. If another class with a different spell casting stat gets access to that ability, does the other class use their primary spell casting stat or are they just stuck with Wisdom? Based on this FAQ, they are just stuck with Wisdom, but it also says "it's a perfectly reasonable house rule" to use the primary casting stat. It just seems like a very thin line between "perfectly reasonable house rule" and "table variation."
I suspect this issue probable falls on that same line.
That is how I look at it also. I see it as a "it should work, but it mostly likely doesn't".
|
|
The line in Agile stating that you don't get 1.5x Dex from two-handing the weapon is the exception that proves the rule.
The problem with this is that the line that says you don't get to add 1.5x DEX with a two handed weapon is the exact same line that says you only get to add half DEX to your off-hand weapon. It's all one sentence.
The line in Agile stating that you don't get 1.5x Dex from two-handing the weapon is the exception that proves the rule.The problem with this is that the line that says you don't get to add 1.5x DEX with a two handed weapon is the exact same line that says you only get to add half DEX to your off-hand weapon. It's all one sentence.
Both are standard case references. Double Slice isn't the standard; so, the Agile language is not necessarily definitive for the Double Slice case.
The line in Agile stating that you don't get 1.5x Dex from two-handing the weapon is the exception that proves the rule.The problem with this is that the line that says you don't get to add 1.5x DEX with a two handed weapon is the exact same line that says you only get to add half DEX to your off-hand weapon. It's all one sentence.
Your leaving out the word "Still." Which means that it normally applies. That is referencing a state that previously existed. Once that state is gone the you cannot "still" only apply 1/2 Dex. The feat is referencing the fact that STR only adds 1/2 STR to off hand attacks. Once that is no longer there, it cannot "still" be in effect.
Consider it like this:
You have a Ford Fiesta. The Speed limit where you live is 65 mph.
You bought a pass to the racetrack - you can drive as fast as your car can go.
You then buy a Lamborghini - the dealer reminds you, as you head out the door "The speed limit is STILL 65 mph."
You still have a pass to the racetrack where you can drive as fast as you want.
When you go to the race track, you are not hampered by the the 65 mph speed limit.
COROLLARY:
You have a 12 STR, you can only add 1/2 your strength damage with an off hand weapon.
You get Double-slice, which lets you add your full STR bonus to both weapons.
You then buy an agile weapon, which reminds you "You can STILL only add 1/2 that to your off hand weapon!"
You use double-slice and are not hampered by the off-hand weapon requirement.
This question is truly a tough one. It's one of those question that come down to why not for me. Since there is no real good why not, it begs the question why not and why even waste time arguing with those who say no.
PFS maybe. But I bet that if you just sat down at your PFS table and played the combo as if it worked, the result would be so underwhelming that you would never be challenged on it.
When each of my attacks deal 2D6 + Power Attack (+6/+3), + 8 Dexterity Modifier (Since I get access to Urban Barbarian Rage at that level, a +4 Dexterity equates to an extra +2 to Attack, Damage, AC, Reflex Saves, and Acrobatics checks), it becomes absolutely ridiculous when I'm consistently hitting with 3-4 attacks in a given turn with that kind of damage, and having a pretty high AC (and Touch AC), as well as Reflex Saves.
Thanks everybody for your input. With most of the community backing me up, I'm positive that I won't have an issue fleshing out this kind of build.
I just did a quick abstract math calculation there. I could more-or-less break down the math better, and it will most likely be higher. So let's calculate.
Next we get 2 Quickdraw Throwing Light Darkwood Shields of Masterwork quality, so that costs ~700 (646 to be exact). Now we throw on +1 AC, +1 Hit/Damage, Bashing, and Agile to each shield, (I don't think +1 Hit/Damage is necessary for weapon special abilities, especially given the RAW of the properties and the RAI of Bashing, but including it if only to be conservative in rules,) racking up 24K. So 34.7K of my 80K WBL spent so far.
From here, we need a solid armor piece. This is difficult, given our fluctuating Dexterity modifier, but for cost and conservative purposes, a Mithril Kikko will give us a 5 AC bonus with a 6 Dexterity modifier. Plop it with a +2 and the Deathless property, and that'll run us 13,030 gold, so round up to 13.1K. 47.8/80K WBL spent.
Tack on 3 of the Big 6 items, such as Cloak of Resistance +3 (9K), Ring of Protection +2 (8K), Amulet of Natural Armor +2 (8K), and that marks up an additional 25K. 72.8/80K WBL spent.
This character does get access to 3rd level Ranger spells, though he doesn't actually get slots to use unless they're from Bonus. Buying a Headband of Wisdom +2 does put us with the ability to cast 1 3rd level spell, and we get access to Haste, putting us at a grand total of 76.8/80K WBL spent. The rest will go into notable consumables, misc. costs, etc.
So now we go with attack roll breakdown, assuming Haste at start of combat (I get access to this via Ranger spells and Archetype). First iterative starts at BAB 11, plus 10 Dexterity via Urban Rage, plus 1 Enhancement bonus from Shield, plus 1 from Haste. Assuming Favored Enemy, I get up to an additional +3 to this roll. This increase is off-set by Power Attack penalties, leaving us with a grand total of +23 on our first 3 highest BAB attacks. Refined and with GTWF (no penalties via Shield Master feat), it becomes +23/+23/+18/+13 main hand and +23/+18/+13 off-hand. Non-favored enemies will be at +20/+20/+15/+10 and +20/+15/+10.
On average, 4 or 5 of those attacks will hit, with a fluxuation of 3 to 6/7. Now we go on to damage. We have 2D6 damage dice on these shields, with our 10 Dexterity modifier, 6 from Power Attack (3 for off-hand attacks, average 1-2 will hit), and 1 from Enhancement bonus. There is also the +3 damage from Favored Enemy, which is optional. Grand total we have is 2D6+17 (+20 with FE) per hit on our main hand, which hits on average 3 times, and 2D6+14 (+17 with FE) per hit on our off hand, which hits on average 2 times.
Grand equation total then becomes 3(2D6+17) + 2(2d6+14) [+15 if main FE], leaving a grand total of 35 [average of 10D6 roll] + 51 + 28 [+15 if main FE] coming out to a grand total of 114 DPR, 129 against Favored Enemies.
Not the best, though he has some good kickers when it comes to saving throws and other defenses. Armor grants a total of 13 AC (7 from armor, 6 from MDB), Shield grants another 2 (you'd think it would be more...), AoNA grants another 2, and Ring of Protection with yet another 2, Haste granting 1, leaves him rocking at a fairly solid 30 base AC. CMD would be calculated as having +10 Dexterity, +1 Strength, +1, +11 BAB, so ~33 CMD. Saves will be at 11/21/10, since he gets access to Iron Will in-combat via Infiltrator archetype with Undead favored enemy, so good luck hitting him with a Fireball or other Reflex save-based spell/effect.
The problem with this is that the line that says you don't get to add 1.5x DEX with a two handed weapon is the exact same line that says you only get to add half DEX to your off-hand weapon. It's all one sentence.
The sentence doesn't say you apply a half modifier, it just it "is still reduced for off-hand weapons".
-> You need to see the usual rule.
Without Double-Slice, the modifier is reduced to 50%.
With Double-Slice, The modifier isn't reduced, then it's still 100%.
|
Self-explanatory question.
I am revisiting my Two-Shield Martial build that takes 10 levels into a Witchguard Infiltrator Ranger and 10 levels into an Invulnerable Urban Barbarian. I realized that with a 20 point buy, I can build 20 Dexterity (in your face TWF pre-reqs! Plus higher AC, Reflex Saves, you name it!), retain a 13 Strength for Power Attack, 13 Constitution, and 14 Wisdom for spellcasting (and so I'm not a drooling bag of pus when it comes to being controlled). Intelligence is at 8 and Charisma is at 7, but eh, not everybody can be super-smart and pretty or charming.
However, when I originally made my Two-Shield Martial, he would end up taking Double Slice so he gets full Strength damage to his off-hand shield. This is where a problem is posed...
If I am going to swap to Dexterity and use Agile Light Shields with Weapon Finesse, I no longer have a good Strength score to swap to, and even though half (+5 Modifier is still +2, compared to the +1 Strength I would have) is still better, my off-hand attacks really suffer in the static damage department, something which I can't afford, since your statistic modifier is probably going to be your second-strongest modifier (Power Attack being ahead of it, though usually not the case for off-hand attacks).
Reviewing the Double Slice text:
Add your Strength bonus to damage rolls made with your off-hand weapon.It says here you add your full Strength modifier to off-hand damage.
Reviewing the Agile property text:
The bolded part makes this tricky. It first says you use...This enhancement can only be placed on a melee weapon which is usable with the Weapon Finesse feat.
Agile weapons are unusually well balanced and responsive. A wielder with the Weapon Finesse feat can choose to apply her Dexterity modifier to damage rolls with the weapon in place of her Strength modifier. This modifier to damage is not increased for two-handed weapons, but is still reduced for off-hand weapons.
In my opinion: Agile specifically states that you swap your Str modifier for your Dex modifier. That sentence alone will allow you to use it with Double Slice because it is a substitution not replacing. The second part of Agile is verifying that NORMALLY you would still reduce the bonus by 1/2 but since you're taking Double Slice that will add your full Substituted Str (Your dex modifier) to your off hand.
Still hitting the FAQ.
I noticed nobody replied to my last post.No point.
People have already responded to your position and you have added nothing new to your argument.
People have replied already, but had they not, then I can't really add anything new without anything to reply to. You do know a conversation is an exchange of ideas so I would need something to reply to.
I just did a quick abstract math calculation there. I could more-or-less break down the math better, and it will most likely be higher. So let's calculate.
** spoiler omitted **...
Seems like it is better than I originally thought. That said, a typical barbarian at 11th level would have power attack, reckless abandon, rage (+6), and probably a +2 furious courageous greatsword, +8 Mod Strength before rage. Everyone has access to haste one way or another at 11th (speed boots)
2d6 + 16str (courageous weapon included)* 1.5 + 4 weap enhancement + 9PA = 2d6 + 37.
So, 31/31/26/21/15 (2d6 + 37). Assuming the top three attacks hit you get 132 points average. I think this is a good assumption if you are hitting four times a round with much lower to hits.
Now that is not even trying for a typical barbarian. Also, if its the typical superstitious barbarian, then your saves don't even match up.
I am not putting your build down. I am just saying that, at best, the results you got are those one would expect to have for a dedicated melee fighter. Therefore, I say you may have come up with an alternative build for variety sake, but not a build that is worth fighting over or shutting down with an overly strict ruling.
Also, I wonder what you results would be if we were to assume that the rules are not what you say. Your damage would go down some, but not a terrible lot. So, what is the discussion really about. A nuisance without much significance?
Unfortunately, I've had to be conservative with that post; I could probably deal even more if I wanted, since Courageous and Furious properties would increase my damage, not to mention I had Strength at 13 for Power Attack; foolish of me to do when I can get Piranha Strike, lower my Strength to 10, and increase my Wisdom and Constitution even higher for more durability or spellcasting ability. That being said, I can get two +2 (AC) Furious Courageous shields for the same price as my previous, and wind up having a +5 bonus to AC from my shield, a +4 Enhancement Bonus to attacks, and having my Dexterity score become 2 higher. Sadly enough, that makes my shield damage become 1D4 now.
You are missing one key thing here between my build and yours: how are your defenses? I'm practically immune to anything that requires a Reflex Save, given that I possess Evasion and a +22 Reflex Save (or +20 without Rage), my Fortitude Saves could rise to 12 (or 14), and my Will Saves to 11 (or 13), as final numbers. Not including Superstition Rage Power (should get it, though it goes against my ability to cast spells, even as Urban Barbarian), this would be even higher against spells. My AC approaches 30 without reserves, my CMD at 33, and decent enough hit points, whereas you lower your AC and CMD with Reckless Abandon, even if able to confirm more hits.
I also wonder how you're getting 5 attacks at level 11 as a two-hander, when you should be at-best getting 4 attacks via Haste.