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So I've been looking through my brand new books, bought them all today finally, and I've been trying to play around with my monk. I've found a combination that I think is pretty good, but I can't figure out if it's a stupid thing to do or not, and I'm still new to all this, so if it's awful, let me know. I like the ideas, but I don't know if I'm missing something that would make me useless, or at least more so. So currently I'm floating two ideas, where my stats are:
Tetori
Str: 10 (0)
Dex: 17 (13) (+2 Human)
Con: 10 (0)
Int: 10 (0)
Wis: 15 (7)
Cha: 10 (0)
(Feats: Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple, Agile Manoeuvre, Dodge)
Then with my second level feat (one more mission hopefully) so I'm not completely useless, Stunning Pin
Or
Sensei/Monk of the Four Winds
Str: 14 (5)
Dex:13 (3)
Con: 12 (2)
Int: 10 (0)
Wis: 14 (7) (+2 Human)
Cha: 13 (3)
(Feats: Improved Unarmed Strike, Elemental Fist, Snake Style, Deflect Arrows)
My biggest issue with my first is that my strength is 10, and my modifier would be +0, but in regards to that I was actually going to make a Tetori monk (The grappling kind). Aside from some skills and being a pretty s*~$ty puncher, I wouldn't really need to use strength for anything monk related (aside from CMB, which I have the Agile Manoeuvre feat) would I? I don't know if I've missed anything there and that's my main concern that I've just nerfed myself by not having strength. What I'll basically have at 1st level, which might seem silly to some, but fun to me, is a Monk that can get in real close; then grapple and subdue most characters with relative ease. This would go along with my alignment and my characters hesitation to kill people. Also, I've looked; but I can't seem to find if there's a limit on what one can grapple, so I'm under the assumption I can grapple anything I want as long as I can explain it correctly,
My second build is a little more complicated, so I probably got a lot of things wrong with it, but I have tried my best to look up rules and sort it all out. Apparently you can mix two Archetypes together as long as the feats and bonuses don't conflict, and I found a good mix for me, which is actually very close to my ideal character. Not as much of the in your face, fast moving monk; but still able to (sort of) hold his own during a skirmish, and aid everyone around him with the Sensei Archetype, combined with the Monk of the Four Winds Archetype. Not overly powerful on it's own, but can help out pretty well, and with Insightful strike at second level, I can replace any dex or strength mods with my wisdom mod for attack and Combat Maneuver checks which should make things pretty interesting.
They're both pretty basic and fit my preference of character, I was just hoping someone could let me know if I got anything wrong with them, or if you could let me know of any ways to improve them, but keeping them on the same sort of level. I'm not really looking for a powerhouse max stats kind of guy, just someone that I would have fun playing.
you wont be happy with that 10 con.
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I'm not particularly bothered by it either, Kaiser is not designed to take hits, but to avoid them, I have a wand of cure light wounds and a wand of mage armour, so with any luck my character will be rolling with a 23 AC if I choose the first build if someone can cast mage armour on me, which is pretty nifty.
As for the second build, I just figured out that I can't use Snake Style until level 3, so I'd replace that with toughness and deflect arrows to Alertness and then pick up snake style at level 3. My health would be 13, my AC would be 19 with WoMA, so for low level game play I wouldn't be doing so bad.
Edit: That is if I haven't missed anything else, I think my math might be right. [Monk is my favoured class]
Edit [2]: I just found out about traits too, so that opens things up a tiny bit more.
You will cry tears once you start fighting monsters that have more than +5 to hit.
The problem with a meele monk is the d8 hit dice, you need con or 1-2 hits of a bad guy will push you out of the fight which isn't gonna be a big problem early levels, but once you go past 7 it's gonna be a big pain in your ass.
Your first character is going to live life dangerously.
Cmb to grapple will be +5, nice for a non fighter at level 1, cmd 18, also good.
But...you have an average of 6hp.. The best way to get out of your grapple to to hit you. Your ac of 16 (14? I can't remember if the grappler losses 4 dex in the clench) is not a lot of protection.
Also not many level 1 characters can afford a wand of mage armor and clw (1500gp)
edit actually do you have a final dex of 19? I had a look at your point buy and it didn't add up, unless you have 17 + 2 for race. In that case why not drop your dex to a total of 18, and use the extra points on your con.
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@Mavael - I don't quite understand, is it me hitting them with a grapple? Or is it +5 to attack roll to nullify my dex or +5 to damage which would pretty much one shot me, lol
@Chillblame - Yeah, the first build is a glass canon, except there's no real strength to it yet. It's more like ... just plain glass I suppose. My grapple would be a bit higher, Graceful Grapple (A tetori feat replacing flurry of the blows) lets me use my Monk level in place of my BaB, +2 from Improved Grapple, then agile manoeuvre gives me the ability to use my dex in my CMB instead of strength. My total grapple will be +7, and the dex reduction is -4 you're correct. As for the wands, I've done two missions thus far, and acquired 4 PP, and I'm able to spend 2PP on a 750 GP item correct? I figured I could do that twice for two wands. As for my dex, it is 19, I spent [13] of my 20 to get 17, then the remaining [7] to get wisdom, and then added my +2 from being a human. As for the dropping the Dex to 18, I think you're onto something there. I might die a little slower.
@666Bender - Not totally certain what that means, but I gather you're saying I'll get one shotted.
Edit: What I'm gathering from this is that the second build is probably more manageable. I enjoy the idea of being a grappling dodging machine, but I'm also aware that by doing something stupid I might bring the party down and I'm hoping to avoid upsetting anyone.
If you're going to put a feat into Agile Maneuvers, no need to stop at just grapple. I'm personally a huge fan of Panther Style, especially at higher levels.
Panther Parry is based on wisdom, and with improved disarm, you can run past your enemies to disarm them all in a pack (or drop in some stuns), making it easier to keep them from hitting you and ending your movement by starting a grapple on the mage hiding behind all the enemy fighters.
Just some advice:
Agile Maneuvers for grappling sounds cool, but remember that as soon as you grapple, you also take the grappled condition (Up until level 4 where things get nice). So your CMB drops by 2 when you maintain, you do get a +5 bonus when you are maintaining, but is a -2 really worth it?
Also you can do damage while maintaining the grapple, which uses your Str. You could get an amulet of mighty fists with the agile property. But this takes a while to be allowed to buy. An amulet of natural armour works better. You also end up being a sitting duck for the buddies of the person you are grappling, so more hp and ac helps a lot.
I have a level 3 dwarven tetori, and I love playing him. He is basically a Zangief runs in and grapple type person. His first session he grappled a plant he shouldnt have and spent the rest of the scenario 4 con down. Luckily he had 16 to start with.
Panther style is mediocre until you hit high levels, but never bad. I was in a "superheroes" campaign not too long ago, and I wanted to be able to disarm my enemies batman-style, and at level 8 with wisdom-boosting items I could consistently disable 6 enemies a round using Greater Disarm.
Also, check out Greater Grapple. You can initiate a grapple as a standard action, then use a move action to maintain—if you take a -10 to your grapple check and win on the maintain, you can instantly tie them up if you've got rope in ready reach.
If your CMB is sufficiently higher than theirs (I believe it only needs to be 10 points higher, which you can do with feats, high agility, and grapple-boosting items), they can't break the ropes even by taking 20.
Meanwhile, if you're not that crazy, you can still attempt a pin and then tie them up next round without penalty. It's pretty amazing against humanoid enemies.
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Tbeard maintaining is a move for greater grapple, it pertains to round 2. The foe gets one round to damage you. If you are grappling a wizard its no big deal. If its a 2 handed barbarian similarly ok. If you have a bullete, dragon, etc. by the snout you are likely dead.
I am a maneuver master fan. I agree with the agile necklace. If you're headed into monk consider a few levels of lore warden. Level 3 gives 2 to both cmb-d. If you're going to get people flat footed rogue is a good place too.
The discussions I've seen seem to suggest you can maintain the grapple in the same round.
What's the charisma for? Unfortunately monks need a lot of different attributes, making them more relatively powerful with higher point buys.
BTW Hope you enjoy playing a monk. I it my favourite class as well. Just ignore all the forum talk about it being a bad class. It is what you make of it. :)
Yeah yeah the class is not the monster tank and damage dealer that some want it to be, but I love the class as it is (incidentally also look at playing a qinggong monk archetype, it lets you trade out certain abilities).
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Oh yeah, Monk is definitely my favourite class; there's just something enjoyable about just walking into a fight with no armour and some piddly little shuriken and just basically wrecking things with your fists. I don't really care about being the ultimate being, I just want to have a character that I can enjoy being, regardless of how bad I'll get murdered.
And I haven't figured it out yet, but I'm fairly certain a Monk is the closest thing to being able to make batman.
Have you given Zen Archer any thoughts, or are you set on entering melee combat?
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Hand to hand is my thing, there's already lots of folks with crossbows, or bows or spells. I'll just do my thing and punch stuff till it's unconscious. Qinggong doesn't quite work for me, I would prefer Four Winds, it looks fun though, but not my bag. Drunken master however looks way more fun than Sensei.
Oh I couldn't use it until 3rd level anyway. Damn.
If you want to be Batman, Martial Artist lets you choose a different alignment and be less magical, and either way there's no reason your shurikens can't be bat-shaped if you craft them yourselves. Monks can deal nonlethal damage easy enough for you to take the batman oath, too.
I think it would be a lot easier to help you if we knew exactly what you want to achieve with the monk, where you want to focus your gameplay etc.
Qinggong is pretty much a must, if only to get barkskin as a ki power. That is HUGE. You don't have to swap anything else out, but take that for sure.
If you go for a Dex-based grapple build, keep in mind that the grappled condition (which you will get, even as the grappler) lowers your Dex. So that will make it slightly easier for enemies to escape your grapple compared to a Str build.
I also suggest dropping your Cha or Int (maybe even both) to get more points for Con. Charisma just isn't doing anything for you as a monk; if you want Charisma skills, you're better off playing something else.
If you are looking at making the Batman.
I would suggest the ninja from ultimate combat, it gets a lot more skills. I made a character like that once, he went for sap adept to add lots of damage to his non lethal sneak attacks, he also used the first dragon style feat. Problem was there there were a few monsters that were immune to that. If I had to recreate this character, he would have a few monk levels.
Also look at the martial artist monk archetype. You give up all the ki powers, but gain some nice abilities :)
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@ Thunderbeard - He's on the back burner for now, but depending on how this session goes tonight, I may end up getting to use him early haha.
@ Mavael - I think I'm just going to go with my original plan of going for fire fists and possibly getting drunk and punching things. I want to keep it basic, so I don't trip myself up on things. This is my first character, I'll keep it light for now.
@ RainyDayNinja - I like Qinggong, but it's a bit too caster-ish for me, I'm a simple guy, I don't really enjoy that kind of character. As for my charisma and intelligence, if I was looking to max my guy out, maybe, but I don't want to come across as an idiot or socially inept, or at least more so than I already likely do in character. I'd like to at least be able to hit on a few girls without having the -4 penalty I suffer in real life already haha.
@ Skull - I did like the ninja a lot, but it seemed really limited. I would probably go martial artist monk for sure, you're absolutely right about that, all the styles would be awesome, and I wouldn't need wisdom quite as much either which would be a little easier.
@ Skull - I did like the ninja a lot, but it seemed really limited. I would probably go martial artist monk for sure, you're absolutely right about that, all the styles would be awesome, and I wouldn't need wisdom quite as much either which would be a little easier.
Also as a ninja, you can show up wearing black studded leather armour (or a lighter armour if you have enough dex) and a mask :)