Does uncanny dodge allow AoOs before your first action?
I would argue they do since you are not flatfooted, which would prevent you threatening squares.
Via the CRB, under Flat-footed (pg 178 in mine). If you have uncanny dodge, you can make Aoo's before you act in a round.
Not if you are unaware.As far as I can tell,flat-footed and surprised are not mutually exclusive.
Ninja'd by flaming Duck,it does seem strange though,Combat reflexes lets you make AAO while flat-footed.
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Does uncanny dodge allow AoOs before your first action?
I would argue they do since you are not flatfooted, which would prevent you threatening squares.
To be sure, here's the relevant language from the PRD:
"Characters with uncanny dodge retain their Dexterity bonus to their AC and can make attacks of opportunity before they have acted in the first round of combat."
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The real question is: does the "first round of combat" include the "surprise round"? The semantic argument being that the "before" includes all times before they have acted, the flipside of which is "in the first round" (only) qualifier part.
These semantic discussions being, of course, for folks who can't relate RAW with RAI.
awesom thanks.
Simplicity would seem to indicate yes.
No... that's what Combat Reflexes are for.Does uncanny dodge allow AoOs before your first action?
I would argue they do since you are not flatfooted, which would prevent you threatening squares.
So you ignore this quote from the core book
"Flat-Footed: At the start of a battle, before you have had a chance to act (specifically, before your first regular turn in the initiative order), you are flat-footed. You can't use your Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) while flat-footed. Barbarians and rogues of high enough level have the uncanny dodge extraordinary ability, which means that they cannot be caught flat-footed. Characters with uncanny dodge retain their Dexterity bonus to their AC and can make attacks of opportunity before they have acted in the first round of combat. A flat-footed character can't make attacks of opportunity, unless he has the Combat Reflexes feat.
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It seems the intent was to give them partial immunity to surprise,even if they cannot act in the surprise round...they can still RE-act.
The text for all of them is for the most part the same. However as stated the rule is in flat footed which gives anyone with uncany Dodge the ability to do aoo while surprised.
It doesn't need to be FAQed the rule on the flat footed condition TELLS you a person with uncanny dodge can make aoo.
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Uncanny Dodge (Ex): Starting at 4th level, a rogue can react to danger before her senses would normally allow her to do so. She cannot be caught flat-footed, nor does she lose her Dex bonus to AC if the attacker is invisible. She still loses her Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. A rogue with this ability can still lose her Dexterity bonus to AC if an opponent successfully uses the feint action (see Combat) against her.
If a rogue already has uncanny dodge from a different class, she automatically gains improved uncanny dodge (see below) instead.
Uncanny Dodge: Starting at 6th level, an internal alchemist can react to danger before his senses would normally allow him to do so. He cannot be caught flat-footed, nor does he lose his Dexterity bonus to AC if the attacker is invisible. However, he still loses his Dexterity bonus to AC if he is immobilized, or if an opponent successfully uses the feint action (see Bluff) against him. If the internal alchemist already has uncanny dodge from a different class, he automatically gains improved uncanny dodge (as a rogue) instead. This ability replaces swift poisoning.
Uncanny Dodge (Ex): At 3rd level, a stalwart defender gains the ability to react to danger before his senses would normally allow him to do so. He cannot be caught flatfooted, even if the attacker is invisible. He still loses his Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. A stalwart defender with this ability can still lose his Dexterity bonus to AC if an opponent successfully uses the feint action against him.
If the character gains uncanny dodge from a second class, he automatically gains improved uncanny dodge (see below).
Uncanny Dodge (Ex): At 2nd level, a barbarian gains the ability to react to danger before her senses would normally allow her to do so. She cannot be caught flat-footed, even if the attacker is invisible. She still loses her Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. A barbarian with this ability can still lose her Dexterity bonus to AC if an opponent successfully uses the feint action against her.
If a barbarian already has uncanny dodge from a different class, she automatically gains improved uncanny dodge (see below) instead.
Uncanny Dodge (Ex): At 2nd level, an assassin cannot be caught flat-footed, even if the attacker is invisible. He still loses his Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. An assassin with this ability can still lose his Dexterity bonus to AC if an opponent successfully uses the feint action against him.
If an assassin already has uncanny dodge from a different class, he automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead.
Uncanny Dodge (Ex): At 2nd level, a shadowdancer cannot be caught flat-footed, even if the attacker is invisible. He still loses her Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. An shadowdancer with this ability can still lose his Dexterity bonus to AC if an opponent successfully uses the feint action against him.
If a shadowdancer already has uncanny dodge from a different class, he automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead.
Uncanny Dodge (Ex): At 2nd level, an archaeologist gains uncanny dodge, as the rogue class feature of the same name. This ability replaces well-versed.
Uncanny Dodge (Ex): At 2nd level, a wild stalker gains uncanny dodge as the barbarian's class feature. This ability replaces the ranger's 2nd-level combat style feat.
Uncanny Dodge (Ex): Starting at 4th level, a ninja can react to danger before her senses would normally allow her to do so. She cannot be caught flat-footed, nor does she lose her Dexterity bonus to AC if the attacker is invisible. She still loses her Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. A ninja with this ability can still lose her Dexterity bonus to AC if an opponent successfully uses the feint action against her.
If a ninja already possesses uncanny dodge from a different class, she automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead.
While the lack of uniform wording is regrettable, every version of Uncanny Dodge says the character can't be caught flat-footed. When you look up flat-footed to see what that implies, you find the statement that "Characters with uncanny dodge" {from any source} "retain their Dexterity bonus to their AC and can make attacks of opportunity before they have acted in the first round of combat." It doesn't specify rogues with Uncanny Dodge from barbarians with Uncanny Dodge from assassins with Uncanny Dodge. However you acquire the ability, you are granted the stated benefit.
Combat Reflexes give you one benefit of the Uncanny Dodge ability along with the additional benefit of extra AoOs. It's two ways to the same thing, like the Toothy alternate race trait and the Tusked race trait. Just because one feat, trait, ability or class feature gives you a benefit doesn't mean that another feat, trait, ability or class feature can't grant that same benefit.
The OP asked the question because the information is not where it should be, in the Uncanny Dodge ability description, but when the CRB explicitly says "characters with uncanny dodge ... can make attacks of opportunity before they have acted in the first round of combat," I see no way to interpret that to mean that characters with uncanny dodge cannot make attacks of opportunity before they have acted in the first round of combat.
LazarX, I thought the exact same thing that you think when I opened this thread. Having seen some linked and quoted rules that said otherwise, I looked into it myself. Turns out that the other folks are right; the inability to take AoOs is comes from the flat-footed condition, which Uncanny Dodge prevents.
If anybody would like to FAQ it, feel free, but it will come back as "no reply necessary" or whatever.
The game works on general rules with exceptions. The general rule is a person who has not acted yet in combat is flat footed.
We then get exceptions ro this. First the flat footed condition itself provides a blanket exception for uncanny dodge.
Flat-Footed: At the start of a battle, before you have had a chance to act (specifically, before your first regular turn in the initiative order), you are flat-footed. You can't use your Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) while flat-footed. Barbarians and rogues of high enough level have the uncanny dodge extraordinary ability, which means that they cannot be caught flat-footed. Characters with uncanny dodge retain their Dexterity bonus to their AC and can make attacks of opportunity before they have acted in the first round of combat. A flat-footed character can't make attacks of opportunity, unless he has the Combat Reflexes feat.
So this gives straight permission to a barbarian or rogue with uncanny dodge can make aoo before their turn. And implies anyone with uncanny dodge can do so.
It doesn't matter what the uncanny dodge class feature says. Why? Because the condition that denies the ability to make aoo in the same condition provides an exception.
Now you could insist that this exception only applies to barbarian or rogues though that is nonoffense a bit obtuse.
Now you could insist that this exception only applies to barbarian or rogues though that is nonoffense a bit obtuse.
It's because the CRB only contains the Barbars and Rogues. The fourth sentence is to make allowances for classes from other source books, otherwise later books would need to reprint all basic combat rules and exceptions.
Its mostly for that reason. One of the big reasons people shouldn't read the rules like a legal document is it is like a badly defragged hd with bits of old code floating about. Not everything in the crb is there because paizo intends it to be there. There are obscure bits of rules floating about that even the current authors don't always know about.
In this case though people need to accept it doesn't matter what the uncanny dodge ability does or says. Because the ff condition provides the exception.
So the argument against allowing AoO's is that Uncanny Dodge does not equal Uncanny Dodge?
If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck....