Okay I know you can't stack archetypes that affect the same power but how general is this distinction. For instance can I take the False Priest and the Sanguine Wildblood together? They both technically affect bloodline powers but they affect different ones and so there is no overlap.
For instance I can see why the Sage bloodline and the Tattooed Sorcerer wouldn't stack because that both change the first bloodline power; however, Sanguine changes the first one and False Priest changes the lv 9 power. Would this be a legal combination then?
Thank you, I have a really cool idea where I want this to go and the only place I can really play now is sadly PFS(not that it is bad, just that the GMs can't let small things slide as per the rule of cool). Before I buy the Inner Sea book, I figured this would be good to know.
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You can't take two archetypes that modify, add, change, or otherwise alter or modify the same class feature.
Crossblooded and Wildblooded can't be combined
Wildblooded provides more bloodline choices and Crossblooded chooses between bloodlines. So it was argued you could combine them. So in your case modifying a power in a bloodline is still modifying. So you can't combine Razmiran Priest and Sanguine.
You can't take two archetypes that modify, add, change, or otherwise alter or modify the same class feature.
Crossblooded and Wildblooded can't be combined
Wildblooded provides more bloodline choices and Crossblooded chooses between bloodlines. So it was argued you could combine them. So in your case modifying a power in a bloodline is still modifying. So you can't combine Razmiran Priest and Sanguine.
This is my distinction, I understand Crossblooded and WildBlooded can't be combined, as they directly overlap in class features (Crossblooded effects nearly all powers, arcana, and feats; however Sanguine and Razmiran Priest, do not overlap. One affects one bloodline power, and one another.
The real meat of the question is are bloodline powers considered separate abilities as Weirdo suggested, or are they the same (bloodline powers) class feature. If so it becomes impossible to stack any archetypes within the class. I feel like this case is different from the one answer in your link as they cannot affect the same choices while in that case they could
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RAI, though, they certainly can, and it's something a reasonable GM would allow.
I don't agree it is RAI.
Wildblood Sanguine replaces the Arcana and the 1st level power.
Razmiran Priest modifies the Bloodline spells, Eschew Materials, and a bloodline power.
Crossblooded didn't directly change anything, just allowed you to choose from both.
The APG says "alter the same class feature" and in the Core under the heading of "Class Features" there is a feature called:
Bloodline: Each sorcerer has a source of magic somewhere in her heritage that grants her spells, bonus feats, an additional class skill, and other special abilities.
The individual bloodline powers, the arcana, the feats, etc are not the class features. The bloodline is the class feature.
If you add/remove/modify/change/alter or otherwise touch the bloodline, then you can't take anything else that touches a bloodline.
That is RAW and that is RAI or they would have said Crossblooded and Wildblooded could work together.
This is my distinction, ... One affects one bloodline power, and one another.
I understand your distinction, it is just that the whole collections of spells, feats and powers are the combined entity that is called a Bloodline and is the class feature. The individual powers are not called out as separate class features, so they are not.
Fair enough, I just won't buy the book and try to make something else. I have really started to dislike organized play for games. If only I could find some people for a home campaign. Anyway, I accept James' clarification. Thanks again.
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James, would you say that you can't combine Beast-Bonded with Sea Witch? I think it's generally accepted that you can (1) (2), because even though they both replace hexes, one of them replaces your 2nd level hex and the other replaces your 4th, 8th, and 10th level hexes and each level's hex is considered a separate ability for the sake of archetypes.
If individual hexes are considered separate abilities for the sake of archetypes, bloodline powers should be considered separate abilities for the sake of archetypes.
For another comparison, look at the bard: all performance types are described under the same heading in the same way bloodlines are, but I don't think there's any question that archetypes replacing two separate performance types are stackable.
Crossblooded didn't directly change anything, just allowed you to choose from both.
Not true. It gives you both bloodline arcana (and both class skills) rather than a choice between arcana. Thus Crossblooded always modifies Bloodline Arcana (which is modified by every Wildblooded archetype).
EDIT: That said, James is right that you should always play it safe in PFS.
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The link to the general game FAQ here offers more information, and suggests that each bloodline power does count as a different 'class feature'. The reason Crossblooded and Wildblooded don't mix is that Crossblooded effectively modifies the arcana and all the bloodline powers.
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The link to the general game FAQ here suggests that each bloodline power does count as a different 'class feature'.
Only after saying:
Note that it is certainly within the GM's purview to allow this combination.
So you can take the discussion following that as more of "if you would like to deviate, here are some examples of how".
James, would you say that you can't combine Beast-Bonded with Sea Witch?
look at the bard: all performance types are described under the same heading in the same way bloodlines are, but I don't think there's any question that archetypes replacing two separate performance types are stackable.
JJ wrote the Dervish Bard Archetype and plays at least two bards:
Comments on stacking bard archetypesSo the Beast-Bonded and Sea Witch combined, so does any number of Bard archetypes that don't modify parts of the base Bardic Performance class ability.
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I still don't think Wildblood Sanguine and Razmiran Priest combine. Sorcerer get a class feature called Bloodlines. They then get individual class features (on the chart) called Bloodline Power, Feat and Spells.
The Wildblood must modify the Arcana and the only way to do that is to modify the main Bloodline class feature. Razmiran Priest modifies the Bloodline class feature by adding spells to the Bloodline's list of spells granted.
They both modify different parts of the main Bloodline power.
Let go with two modifications:
- If they Wildblood didn't modify the Arcana, I'd say these two Archetypes stack.
- If the Razmiran Priest didn't add spells to the Bloodline spell list, I'd also say they stack.
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To make my point more clear. If the only thing the two did was modify different bloodline powers, there wouldn't be any question on whether or not they stack.
If one said "change 1st level Bloodline power" and the other said "change 9th level Bloodline power" then they would stack.
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Razmiran Priest is specific in what it replaces: the Eschew Materials bonus Feat, the bloodline spells gained at 3rd and 5th level, and the bloodline power gained at 9th level.
Sanguine Wildblooded is specific in what is replaces: the Bloodline Arcana, and the 'grave touch' (1st level) power.
Neither of these replace or modify the same things. If everything under the Bloodline class feature was replaced, wouldn't that imply that a everything not mentioned would be lost? Or bumped up to the next 'slot' as a scaling class feature (like a Fighter's weapon training or a Rogue's sneak attack does)? That just doesn't fit.
Just as each listing on the chart for weapon training or sneak attack is a seperate class feature (in terms of archetype replacement) so is each seperately listed Bloodline related thing.
Crossblooded is the spanner in the works, because it modifies everything (even if only to offer a choice between two things).
Here...
Sorcerer, Crossblooded and Wildblooded: Can I take both of these archetypes for the same character?
No, because the archetype rules say none of the alternate class features can replace or alter the same class feature from the class as another alternate class feature. Because the crossblooded and wildblooded sorcerer archetypes both alter the bloodline arcana and bloodline powers, they aren't compatible archetypes.
Note that it lists 'bloodline arcana' and 'bloodline powers' seperately: thus they are clearly not all bundled under one single class feature 'bloodline' that is altered whole, but are at least split into two... and then there's the bloodline spells, and extra class Skill, which aren't called out at all.
Note that it is certainly within the GM's purview to allow this combination. However, the character should not be able to use the crossblooded archetype's ability to select a lower-level bloodline power that was replaced by the wildblooded archetype. For example, a wildblooded brutal (abyssal) sorcerer replaces "strength of the abyss" with "wings of the abyss" at 9th level; the character has "paid" for the wildblooded archetype by giving up "strength of the abyss," and can't use the crossblooded bloodline to select "strength of the abyss" as her 15th-level or 20th-level bloodline power.
This is pointing out that even if the GM does allow Crossblooded / Wildblooded Sorcerers (even though it wouldn't be RAW because they both replace / modify the same Bloodline Arcana and Bloodline Powers) you can't cherry pick lower level powers you've already replaced, because you replaced those specific powers. So you can't replace you 1st level power with one archetype, and then replace it again with another, even if the GM did allow Crossblooded/Wildblooded, but outside of Crossblooded/Wildblooded that's just the basic archetype rule: one specific thing can only be replaced/modified by one archetype.
The idea that because 'Bloodline' is listed under Class Features everything under that heading has to be counted as one thing for archetype purposes would be strange indeed, as the same would have to logically apply to all the other classes with stuff grouped under the same heading (rage powers, bardic performance, channel energy, armour training, weapon training, favoured enemy, sneak attack, etc., etc.) and a quick look through the various archetypes shows that this clearly isn't the case.
James I don't understand you now. So if Sanguine only affected a bloodline power you think it would be fine. But since it changes the Arcana...which Razmiran Priest doesn't, you don't think it stacks. I am trying to understand how if each of the bloodlines powers are separate (as you seem to indicated by saying if Sanguine only modified the 1st bloodline power) how can you then lump all of the bloodline together?
Is anything that modifies anything given by the bloodline prohibited from stacking (which would prevent any Sorcerer Archetypes from stacking) or are they separate? I was willing to accept you reasoning but your follow up post muddied what I thought you were saying. I fine with scraping the concept if I have to but it seems like there is some division on the subject.
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Razmiran Priest is specific in what it replaces: the Eschew Materials bonus Feat, the bloodline spells gained at 3rd and 5th level, and the bloodline power gained at 9th level.
Sanguine Wildblooded is specific in what is replaces: the Bloodline Arcana, and the 'grave touch' (1st level) power.
Sounds like table variance then.
There is no class feature called "Bloodline Arcana" listed on the chart on page 72. So the only way to change the Bloodline Arcana by the Sanguine Wildblooded archetype is to modify the Bloodline class feature. This I think we agree.
The central disagreement seems to be this ability:
Lay Healer (Su): At 3rd level, the Razmiran priest adds aid to his list of spells known as a 2nd-level spell. At 5th level, he adds remove disease to his list of spells known as a 3rd-level spell. This ability replaces the bloodline spells gained at 3rd level and 5th level respectively.
The two stances:
- The Bloodline sets which spells are gained at which level, and the separate Bloodline Spells adds the spells specified by the Bloodline. Archetypes that add, change, or modify the list of allowed spells at each level is modifying the class ability Bloodline and not Bloodline Spells.
- The Bloodline Spells are each separate abilities and the list itself isn't part of the Bloodline class feature. It is split into the various level abilities between 1st and 19th level. Archetypes that add, change, or modify do so only to the class feature Bloodline Spells for each level specified. Something that provides a list modifies each instance of Bloodline Spells even if the list is mostly the same with only a few changes.
I think that about sums up the two sides. Pick a side, that determines whether or not the archetypes stack or not.
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Okay James, I think I understand where you're coming from. So you'd also rule that a Cleric (for example) can only ever select one sub-domain, as that modifies his domain spells and they all come under the 'domains' class feature, correct?
Subdomains on page 86 of APG make no mention of restrictions. They are not archetypes and as such don't need to follow the archetype rules.
Am I missing somewhere there is a rule on when and how you can take a subdomain more restrictive than page 86 of APG?
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Okay James, I think I understand where you're coming from. So you'd also rule that a Cleric (for example) can only ever select one sub-domain, as that modifies his domain spells and they all come under the 'domains' class feature, correct?Subdomains on page 86 of APG make no mention of restrictions. They are not archetypes and as such don't need to follow the archetype rules.
Am I missing somewhere there is a rule on when and how you can take a subdomain more restrictive than page 86 of APG?
Not as far as I know, no... but they are 'alternate class features' and I was interested to see if you were applying the same logic to Clerics as you are to Sorcerers. Clearly not.
At this point I think we'll have to agree to disagree, but to my mind, at least, it's clear that Razmiran Priest and Sanguine Wildblooded are an allowable combination, by RAW, and I can't see how that combination would be considered 'game-breaking' in any way. YMMV, as always.
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There is no class feature called "Bloodline Arcana" listed on the chart on page 72. So the only way to change the Bloodline Arcana by the Sanguine Wildblooded archetype is to modify the Bloodline class feature. This I think we agree.
There's no "Bloodline" feature listed on the chart either, so I don't think that follows.
The point about the base mechanic being modifiable in addition to the individual powers makes sense, but I don't think it's clear that everything aside from the bloodline powers are part of the base mechanic. There are two notable differences between the bloodline and bardic performance:
1) The individual bardic performances clearly can't function without reference to the base mechanic, which describes the action required, components, rounds per day, etc. The bloodline arcana does not in any way change the way the rest of the bloodline functions - it's not a "base" in the sense that other abilities don't build on it.
2) The bard archetypes that change the base mechanic (for example, Archaeologist and Dawnflower Dervish) refer to the "standard bardic performance ability" as in "This ability alters the standard bardic performance ability." Archetypes that change the bloodline arcana (eg Sanguine) state "This ability replaces the Undead Bloodline Arcana" not "This ability modifies the Undead Bloodline." This suggests that the change is targeting an individual ability rather than part of a base mechanic.
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At this point I think we'll have to agree to disagree
I'm perfectly fine with that. Call it table variance. Ultimately the game is all about interpretation. Each of use use the words to try to understand the meaning. I also don't think it is game breaking at all. I'd probably be inclined to cede to the player who wishes to play these two together. I just feel there is a reason they don't work together.
But to my mind, at least, it's clear that Razmiran Priest and Sanguine Wildblooded are an allowable combination, by RAW, and I can't see how that combination would be considered 'game-breaking' in any way. YMMV, as always.
I feel compelled to point out that how 'game-breaking' something would be has little to do with the issue, as plenty of RAW is game breaking, intentionally so apparently.
However, Archetypes and alternate class features are not the same thing. So I don't really understand why you'd expect the same logic to apply. As superficial similarities are just that.
I would like to give you kudo's for not using 'lets agree to disagree' at the start or continuation of an argument. a tendency rather common on this forum.
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Sorry for a minor necro, but I found a relavant FAQ:
The robes [of arcane heritage] say "treats her sorcerer level as 4 higher than normal for the purpose of determining what bloodline powers she can use and their effects. Note that bloodline powers, bloodline arcana, bonus spells, and bloodline feats are three separate abilities of the sorcerer class; the robes only affect the bloodline powers.
If bloodline arcana, bonus spells, and feats are separate abilities of the sorcerer class, then an archetype that modifies one of the three does not prohibit you from taking another archetype that modifies the others.
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relavant FAQ
Note that bloodline powers, bloodline arcana, bonus spells, and bloodline feats are three separate abilities of the sorcerer class; the robes only affect the bloodline powers.
Good find. But it lists 4 things in a 3 thing list. So which two of the four are one ability? Powers and Feats? Arcana and spells?
I'm going to go with an addition error and guess that they meant four abilities until I see a clarification. (IE: I'm counting all 4 as separate abilities of the sorcerer class) Makes more sense IMO that two of those being one ability.