Do any of you think there ever will be a chance of seeing something like epic levels from 3.0/3.5 or do you think Mythic Levels will be end of character progression?
20th level is not enough for some players? The game is absolutely ludicrous at those levels. Add Mythic levels onto 20th level, and it gets ever worse. I guess there's never enough power creep for some folks.
Little Red Goblin Games made Legendary Levels, but I'm not finding it on the site now. Maybe they're still working on the OGL issues they had?
20th level is not enough for some players? The game is absolutely ludicrous at those levels. Add Mythic levels onto 20th level, and it gets ever worse. I guess there's never enough power creep for some folks.
So, badwrongfun then?
I'm not sure you're using "power creep" the way most people use it.
Edit: Also, if you're into epic, I don't think you'll be creeping up to power, but grasping it with both hands!
It's not that it's badwrongfun, but more that epic levels would be pointless.
Paizo has already established the strongest power levels in the system. CR 26-30 is demigod power. Above CR 30 is deity power. Considering that level 20, 10 mythic tier characters can obliterate CR 30 monsters, which are on the cusp of god-hood, further increasing PC power levels would really just elevate them into a level where there is no challenge, because you can just blow away everything in your path, even gods.
Considering that mythic level play sort of does that already, epic levels on top of that would only be increasing that problem.
There will be no epic levels. They mythic characters are replacing those.
It's not that it's badwrongfun, but more that epic levels would be pointless.
Paizo has already established the strongest power levels in the system. CR 26-30 is demigod power. Above CR 30 is deity power. Considering that level 20, 10 mythic tier characters can obliterate CR 30 monsters, which are on the cusp of god-hood, further increasing PC power levels would really just elevate them into a level where there is no challenge, because you can just blow away everything in your path, even gods.
Considering that mythic level play sort of does that already, epic levels on top of that would only be increasing that problem.
Only if you consider that a problem. Some people may want to play characters who can defeat the published gods. And "above CR 30" is a big range; I'd imagine some gods are more powerful than others. There may also be creatures (out in the vastness of the planes, perhaps) that are to gods as a t.rex is to us humans.
If people enjoy that sort of thing, why call it "pointless" and a "problem"?
I suggest you get one of the 3 or 3.5 epic books and converting them. The game is at that level quite Wild and stuff is a bit too complex for me. Alternatly you can go with the old 1 level = one feat kind of epic like in the 3.0 forgotten realms. Like E6 just E20:)
Do any of you think there ever will be a chance of seeing something like epic levels from 3.0/3.5 or do you think Mythic Levels will be end of character progression?
It has been my experience that continuing the normal progressions gives a fairly practical and/or steady progression that works well, though the power creep per level actually slows down significantly (in default Pathfinder, there's not a whole lot of difference between a 20th level character and a 25th level character, for example).
To solve the saving throws going out of whack, consider this homebrew feat.
Conditioned For Survival (General)
The extremes of epic heroism have pushed you to your limits and survival demands you improve and succeed where once you tried and failed.
Prerequisites: At least 1 base saving throw at +12 or greater.
Benefit: You gain a bonus to all your saving throws equal to 1/3rd of your highest base saving throw, but this bonus cannot raise a saving throw above your highest base saving throw before any modifiers.
Example: If your base Fortitude was +12, but your base Reflex was +9, and your base Will +6, you would gain 12 divided by 3 (+4) to your saves up to a maximum of +12, meaning your saving throws would now be Fort +12, Ref +12, and Will +10.
At 40th level (+22 good save, +13 bad save) you would now have +22 good save and +20 bad save. This also normalizes erratic saving throws due to extreme multiclassing. For example, if you had Fighter 8 (+6/+2/+2), Ranger 8 (+6/+6/+2), Barbarian 8 (+6/+2/+2) you'd normally have a character with the following saves: +18/+10/+6 (very uneven). However since we get 18/3 = +6 to all, our saves actually become +18/+16/+12. Not so terrible at all.
I might need to write an advice piece for dealing with post-20th level in Pathfinder.
And that feat is now so good, everyone should take it, so it should probably be a freebie, say for reaching 21st-level.
And that feat is now so good, everyone should take it, so it should probably be a freebie, say for reaching 21st-level.
You could do that if you want. Though I prefer it this way because it doesn't create some sort of weird distinction between PCs and NPCs, and because it allows players to polish their lower defenses, but it might not be necessary (for example, if your game is going from 20-23, then your saves aren't actually going to be much worse than at 20th assuming a strait-class progression).
There may also be some other sort of prerequisite other than the base save of +12 if creatures with high HD taking the feat concerns you. For me personally, it doesn't, but it might for some.
Another reason I made it a feat was because I disliked the way the epic level handbook in 3.0 handled saves which was very arbitrary. Once you hit 20th level, your BAB & saves stopped progressing (didn't matter if you were multiclassed, single classed, etc) and you gained +1/2 to your BAB and saves every level thereafter. This was exceedingly awkward when it came to dealing with creatures with racial HD which didn't count, and if it did count, it would have retroactively nerfed a lot of core monsters really hard (such as dragons).
That said, saving throws are really the main concern of a post-20 campaign, given that eventually they fall too far our of whack (by 20th level, a good/poor comparison is only a 30% difference on the d20 roll, but by 30th level it would be 35% difference, then 45% difference at 40th), which might not sound like a lot, but it's a big difference on a d20, because if you have an 60% chance to succeed on your good save, then you have a 15% chance to succeed on your poor one.
Even then, it's probably fine if you allow magic items to be crafted at higher than their standard core values. For example, by the item creation rules, you could price a +10 cloak of resistance at 100,000 gp, or a +12 Strength item at 144,000 gp, etc.
There is a free Pathfinder conversion/update of the Epic Level Handbook at jessesdnd.com. The latest version is 1.5, uploaded a couple of months ago, for anyone who has already been to that site.
There is the epic level guidelines in the CRB, which basically gives a rough outline of XP increasing, and lets you choose your options from whichever Epic type advancement you'd want (3.5's DMG, 3e's epic, Sword and Sorcery's APG, etc).
Overall, it's choose your poison, but I don't expect they'll ever come out with anything official.
Only if you consider that a problem. Some people may want to play characters who can defeat the published gods. And "above CR 30" is a big range; I'd imagine some gods are more powerful than others. There may also be creatures (out in the vastness of the planes, perhaps) that are to gods as a t.rex is to us humans.
If people enjoy that sort of thing, why call it "pointless" and a "problem"?
Certainly, if you wish to play at that scale, then go for it. I certainly never stated I considered it bad or that people should not enjoy it.
I stated it would be pointless to raise the power bar of PCs further because PCs already are plenty strong with the current content. Mythic already allows PCs to decimate the strongest demigods with ease. Considering that campaign setting books already establish that demigods are able to fight gods, it's not a stretch to assume that if you can kill the strongest demigods, you can also fight deities.
Unless Paizo releases content that involves being stronger than deities, there is little need for content that further increases PC power.
Do any of you think there ever will be a chance of seeing something like epic levels from 3.0/3.5 or do you think Mythic Levels will be end of character progression?It has been my experience that continuing the normal progressions gives a fairly practical and/or steady progression that works well, though the power creep per level actually slows down significantly (in default Pathfinder, there's not a whole lot of difference between a 20th level character and a 25th level character, for example).
To solve the saving throws going out of whack, consider this homebrew feat.
Conditioned For Survival (General)
The extremes of epic heroism have pushed you to your limits and survival demands you improve and succeed where once you tried and failed.
Prerequisites: At least 1 base saving throw at +12 or greater.
Benefit: You gain a bonus to all your saving throws equal to 1/3rd of your highest base saving throw, but this bonus cannot raise a saving throw above your highest base saving throw before any modifiers.
Example: If your base Fortitude was +12, but your base Reflex was +9, and your base Will +6, you would gain 12 divided by 3 (+4) to your saves up to a maximum of +12, meaning your saving throws would now be Fort +12, Ref +12, and Will +10.At 40th level (+22 good save, +13 bad save) you would now have +22 good save and +20 bad save. This also normalizes erratic saving throws due to extreme multiclassing. For example, if you had Fighter 8 (+6/+2/+2), Ranger 8 (+6/+6/+2), Barbarian 8 (+6/+2/+2) you'd normally have a character with the following saves: +18/+10/+6 (very uneven). However since we get 18/3 = +6 to all, our saves actually become +18/+16/+12. Not so terrible at all.
I might need to write an advice piece for dealing with post-20th level in Pathfinder.
That's a cool and useful feat Ashiel I wish that had been around when my group was doing our epic campaign in 3.5
There is the epic level guidelines in the CRB, which basically gives a rough outline of XP increasing, and lets you choose your options from whichever Epic type advancement you'd want (3.5's DMG, 3e's epic, Sword and Sorcery's APG, etc).
Overall, it's choose your poison, but I don't expect they'll ever come out with anything official.
OK what is the CRB?
OK what is the CRB?There is the epic level guidelines in the CRB, which basically gives a rough outline of XP increasing, and lets you choose your options from whichever Epic type advancement you'd want (3.5's DMG, 3e's epic, Sword and Sorcery's APG, etc).
Overall, it's choose your poison, but I don't expect they'll ever come out with anything official.
The Core Rulebook, that big 4# tome that began Pathfinder :)
Where in the core rulebook does it outline epic level play??? And thanks Lathiira for clarifying what that meant