My GM and I have been working on converting his campaign to Pathfinder for some time now (we're geographically separated, so it's been an ongoing, long-term labor of love).
One of the projects I've tried to tackle for some time deals with creating a fighter-arcane spellcaster hybrid base class. This class reflected an in-game evolution of a "faction" that was fairly prominent in the campaign. We started with 2nd edition, and that faction's charaters and NPCs were represented through multiclassing and a kit. Then we moved to 3rd edition and 3.5, and we decided these individuals were best represented through a prestige class.
Now, however, that faction is evolving in a different way. Previously, the prestige class represented individuals who were exprerienced adventurers and received specialized training. The reason for the base class was to indicate individuals who are "home grown" within this faction's system.
When Ultimate Combat came out, the Magus immediately caught my eye: its Spell Combat and Spellstrike mechanic closely mirrored something we had been doing for some time already. Unfortunately, while the Magus comes very close to replicating what I want, it falls short in some key factors.
Most of those factors are easily addressed. Certain abilities, for instance, will be replaced with others (e.g., Spell Recall, Counterstrike).
Where I run into problems is with the Base Attack Bonus. I understand the reason for the Magus getting a reduced Base Attack Bonus - he has, after all, a 20-level spellcasting progression. Unfortunately, that's a deal-breaker where our particular concept is concerned.
So that's the thrust of this post. What would you remove from the Magus to accomodate full BAB?
Getting rid of the ability to use the Arcane Pool to enhance a weapon is already a given. So is getting rid of medium and heavy armor. Diminished spellcasting is a given. Knowledge Pool and Greater Spell Acess are also on the chopping block, as they don't match the proposed class's theme.
Any suggestions? Or is this a fool's errand?
Cutting out other abilities isnt going to help matters. A class shouldnt have more then 4 levels of casting (paladin style) and full BAB. Period. Full Stop. Magic is an extremely potent tool, particularly arcane magic. The thing I'd remove from the magus to accomodate full bab is the two highest levels of their spellcasting.
If you want a magicy fighter thats more fighter then magic I'd recommend taking a look at this homebrew class: The Iron Mage.
You don't need full BAB. Spells like Magic Weapon (to start), Tactical Acumen, and Bull's Strength can all make up for that lost BAB. It's only +1 per four levels, you should be able to find bonuses against that.
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Yeah...full BAB and 6 level spellcasting is probably too much even with no class abilities beyond Spell Combat and Spellstrike.
What you could do, is replace the ability to use Arcane Pool to enhance weapons with something that gave a useful 3rd level spell a few rounds a day, or even for longer. That'd allow you to take two levels of Magus then immediately go into Eldritch Knight, which is full BAB. Or, if your Prestige Class is Full BAB something that would let it get early entry into that.
That's the closest thing to a balanced version you seems likely to get.
You will note that the only full BAB classes to get spellcasting are Paladin and Ranger, and they cap at 4th level spells and a severly diminished spell selection.
Anything with full BAB and more than 4th level spell progression like ranger or paladin would be superior to pretty much everything that isn't a full caster (full casters will always rule the world).
If you're basically wanting a full BAB magus, to start with chop off 5th and 6th level spells and use the same progression as ranger/paladin. Might need to trim the spell list some. That's a start, but probably still need to remove more stuff from the magus class to get to the appropriate level of power, though I'm not sure how I would go about it.
Looks like limited BAB it is. I'll admit that one thing that I couldn't shake was that Spellstrike essentially added an extra attack at the highest BAB, which thanks to spellcasting can be brought up to Martial levels.
My main issue was that this class is akin to the Kensai in the sense that it focuses on a single "weapon of choice". Conceptually and thematically, I've always had trouble with someone who is a "weapon master" having less than full BAB.
Such is life!
Thanks for the input, everyone. That doesn't mean I'm not open to other suggestions, of course :)
Full BAB.
6th level spellcasting.
Ranger class style choice and bonus feats.Not sure much else could be added.
Clearly you have a different idea of what is acceptable. You'll notice 6th spell level casters never have full BAB. They have 3/4 BAB. This isn't a mistake on Paizo's part.
The Warpriest from the ACG would have been the closest thing, but the class got the nerf bat on the full BAB issue.
The next closest thing is the "Holy Warrior" from the Pathfinder campaign setting. It is essentially a Cleric Archetype that gives up both Domains for Full BAB and d10 HD.
Looks like limited BAB it is. I'll admit that one thing that I couldn't shake was that Spellstrike essentially added an extra attack at the highest BAB, which thanks to spellcasting can be brought up to Martial levels.
My main issue was that this class is akin to the Kensai in the sense that it focuses on a single "weapon of choice". Conceptually and thematically, I've always had trouble with someone who is a "weapon master" having less than full BAB.
Such is life!
Thanks for the input, everyone. That doesn't mean I'm not open to other suggestions, of course :)
Is there a fundamental difference between someone with full bab, and someone with full bab who adds +1/5 his level to his attacks via weapon ehancements? I mean shouldnt a portion of a fightermage's martial prowess come from magic? Why is that an issue?
I mean there is actually one class from a 3rd party publisher (rogue genius games) that I allow at my table that has full bab and a slightly reduced 6 level casting progression called the archon. But it also is a very lackluster class in terms of its abilities and doesnt mesh magic and fighing overly well. Its not a bad class, its just clunky (sort of how a fighter heavy eldritch knight turns out) and doesnt have features as elegant and potent as spell combat. I had a player play one in a previous campaign and it was functional, but never really shone because of its lack of cohesion.
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The Kensai isn't so much as a weapon master as a person who learns to master the style of one weapon and casting spells at the same time. This style takes more time and practice to master than a style that only uses a weapon without casting spells. Thats why he isn't a full BaB class, his style of fighting just can't be that good. But he certainly makes up for it with his spell casting.
The Warpriest from the ACG would have been the closest thing, but the class got the nerf bat on the full BAB issue.
Do you have a link to that?
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Rogue Genius Games, formerly Super Genius Games, has a fighter/mage class called the Archon that is full BAB, 6th level spells, and has abilities as well. You can buy it here on this site for $3. Or, you can probably see it for free on the open pathfinder SRD. Even though it is third party, it was made by designers who are now paizo staff.
The point is, I don't think full BAB and 6th level arcane spells are a deal breaker by themselves. But you do have to watch how powerful the spell list is, how much armor they can wear, and what the abilities are. If you plan to offer a weapon boosting ability, I would recommend 4th level spells instead.
Rogue Genius Games, formerly Super Genius Games, has a fighter/mage class called the Archon that is full BAB, 6th level spells, and has abilities as well. You can buy it here on this site for $3. Or, you can probably see it for free on the open pathfinder SRD. Even though it is third party, it was made by designers who are now paizo staff.
The point is, I don't think full BAB and 6th level arcane spells are a deal breaker by themselves. But you do have to watch how powerful the spell list is, how much armor they can wear, and what the abilities are. If you plan to offer a weapon boosting ability, I would recommend 4th level spells instead.
I've used the archon in a campaign as mentioned. And the key thing to remember is that it has a very restricted spell list, and though it has lots of abilities, it doesnt mesh everything together particularly well. It certainly doesnt have anything on par with spell combat until it gets to very high levels. And thats sort of the point, it does have 6 level casting and full bab, but thats almost all it gets. It gets a few minor abilities, but they arent anything flashy. The archon in my game was never the best at anything, but he was among the more versatile characters.
I think people are overestimating what BAB is actually worth in PF. What it does is provide a very slight edge on total attack bonus, and provides iterative attacks slightly earlier. Most feats don't scale with BAB in any meaningful way, with maybe the exception of Power Attack.
That said, I'd love it if BAB and CL were actually of equal value, and then (in this alternative universe) EVERY class would conform to one of the following:
But not only will that not happen, we already have numerous exceptions (cleric and druid have 3/4 BAB, 9/9 casting; fighter has 1/1 BAB, 0/9 casting; poor rogue and monk have 3/4 BAB, 0/9 casting).
In comparison with what the cleric, druid, and oracle get, I really don't think a 1/1 BAB, 6/9 casting class is too outrageous.
Alternatively, an arcane full BAB, 4/9 casting class sure would be nice.
Do you have a link to that?The Warpriest from the ACG would have been the closest thing, but the class got the nerf bat on the full BAB issue.
http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/v5748dyo5lg7q?Advanced-Class-Guide-Preview-Warp riest
Is there a fundamental difference between someone with full bab, and someone with full bab who adds +1/5 his level to his attacks via weapon ehancements? I mean shouldnt a portion of a fightermage's martial prowess come from magic? Why is that an issue?
It's purely thematic. :)
To be more clear, as I mentioned earlier, this class is an evolution of a previous prestige class and mirrors an in-game evolution of a specific faction. Thus, while I agree that full BAB ultimately doesn't matter as much when you recoup that in enchantment bonuses, the class itself never had the ability to enchant a weapon. The mechanic we had developed (which I will replace with Spell Combat/Spellstrike) was the defining aspect of this prestige class, and I don't want to invent new abilities from whole cloth for it.
That having been said, I could very much imagine replacing the weapon enchantment ability with something that mirrors the Fighter's Weapon Training ability - but with a single weapon.
Rogue Genius Games, formerly Super Genius Games, has a fighter/mage class called the Archon that is full BAB, 6th level spells, and has abilities as well. ...
The point is, I don't think full BAB and 6th level arcane spells are a deal breaker by themselves. But you do have to watch how powerful the spell list is, how much armor they can wear, and what the abilities are. If you plan to offer a weapon boosting ability, I would recommend 4th level spells instead.
... And the key thing to remember is that it has a very restricted spell list, ...
One of my earlier hopes had been to balance full BAB with diminished spellcasting on top of a very restrictive spell list (this is a very specialized class, after all) and a removal of weapon enchanting.
I'll have to check this Archon out. And, obviously, I'll have to read the class design chapter that (I think?) is coming with the Advanced Class Guide.
The Bloodrager from the ACG would be what I'd look at as an example.
That's actually, what got me started again with this project. :)
Refluffed bloodrager I'd say would be your best bet. Maybe redo bloodlines into arcane schools and adjust the proficiencies and the armor they can cast in?
I would base the class on the Bloodrager, with a different or broader theme than the Bloodrager's relatively narrow Sorcerer + Barbarian hybrid class. The class might be a teleportation or extreme-speed themed melee class, or a base class Arcane Archer.
The Summoner can be a good example as well, as a class with 6th level spells it gets early entry to many of the better ones. Its bread-and-butter spells (namely, Summon Monster) are available as SLAs that progress along with its class level; a similar thing could be done with homebrewed spells like "Lesser Dimension Door", or Lesser and Greater versions of Haste, to use the example themes I've mentioned.
Tacking a spell effect onto a melee swing is already the Magus' thing, and IIRC there's a feat now that allows Divine casters to do the same with a hammer. Take this class in a different direction.
While I am creating a new class, per se, it's based on pre-established concepts and themes. Those themes were as follows:
1. "Weapon master" (with full BAB) focused on a single melee weapon.
2. "Tacking a spell effect onto a melee swing" (not to brag, but that's something we had established since before the Magus).
3. Spells from level 1.
I wonder if another possible answer isn't going with 4th level progression but starting at level 1. I don't think I've seen that with any Paizo-written class, though.
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http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/v5748dyo5lg7q?Advanced-Class-Guide-Preview-Warp riestDo you have a link to that?The Warpriest from the ACG would have been the closest thing, but the class got the nerf bat on the full BAB issue.
Fixed link.
Also, while the full BAB got nerfed, the class also got buffed in that the blessings got a power up and charisma was removed from fervor.
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While I am creating a new class, per se, it's based on pre-established concepts and themes. Those themes were as follows:
1. "Weapon master" (with full BAB) focused on a single melee weapon.
2. "Tacking a spell effect onto a melee swing" (not to brag, but that's something we had established since before the Magus).
3. Spells from level 1.I wonder if another possible answer isn't going with 4th level progression but starting at level 1. I don't think I've seen that with any Paizo-written class, though.
My thoughts on this would be:
* Start with the Bloodrager chassis from the ACG playtest.* Strip out the Bloodrage and bloodline abilities.
* Give it cantrips from level 1, tweak spell list to your preferred fluff.
* Give it limited bonus combat feat progression including the ability to take fighter-exclusive feats for their chosen weapon.
* Add in Spellstrike from the Magus.
It may be a lot of work, but this sounds like what you're looking for.
This thread should be in the homebrew forum. They already have a lot of threads about making your own classes and some people there do a multiclass archetype project that might give you some ideas.
