I'm having trouble with a character concept and am looking for veteran advice from players and GMs. As a pure ranger archer, it seems riding a mount in combat can be super beneficial. I can take a full attack on my turn and move on the mounts if needed to avoid penalties, and the penalties of shooting WHILE moving aren't terrible if it needs to be done. A horse is most likely the best option as I am playing a human. It's large right away and can carry me at level 4, and at higher levels can charge and knock people down if they get too close to me (hopefully they don't have a brace weapon), so I like them over most other mounts. They are large in a 1x2 sense, so they can come in a dungeon and not have to squeeze often. Rope ladders or sudden drops would present an issue, but I believe a system of pulleys could be used to lower my horse down or raise him up with another PC help. Plus I can buy it combat trained if my horse dies, which makes it way less of a pain than most other mounts.
However, I really like the thought of a flying mount. Riding a hippogriff or griffon or roc into battle as an archer seems like a really cool concept. I'll have to pour points into Fly, Handle Animal, and Ride, but can it be really viable? In a dungeon, they'll most likely have to take the squeeze debuff. My only thoughts on this is that a hippogriff and griffon are about the same width as a horse with its wings folded in, so if I specify that his wings are folded close to his body and I'm just using him as a mount, will he still take the debuff? Additionally, as I hag already created my character as a standard Ranger, will I have to take a level dip or the Monstrous Mount feat to get this to work?
I planned on taking combat reflexes, snap shot, and improved snapshot so I could sit near the front line and really make use of AoO's. How beer, with a flying mount this will be quite difficult if not impossible. I will have to get the Hover feat to not take a penalty while moving and shooting. The only way I see to make full use of these feats with a flying mount is to use flying when there is no one close enough to provoke an AoO or to hover just five feet off the ground, but the dust from Hover will affect other PC so it may not be viable.
The build seems to have a ton of flavor and is completely unoptimized for an archer. Is there anything I can do to make it like having a winged horse or anything you guys can suggest to make a flying mount seem more feasible? I'd really like one, but there's those issues plus the issues of bringing one into town. Is a flying mount even feasible in PFS or is it a pipe dream?
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
One thing to note, is that in Pathfinder as opposed to previous versions of DnD, is that large is a standard 2x2. There is no 1x2 large or 1x3 etc, everything is abstracted so they use a square area (2x2).
Large creatures can squeeze through areas with a width of 1, but they take squeeze penalties (unless they have the Narrow Frame feat).
So even a horse will take a penalty in anything less than a 2x2 space. Good to know. So in a dungeon a horse present the same problem as any other AnCo/Mount. Is it considered a full round move to have a flying mount take flight? And would that effect my turn?
So say I make a full attack, then it is my mount turn, and I have them take flight. I'll still have to make skill checks, but it won't effect my turn or my next turn, just the mounts, correct?
As a ranger, I also don't have fly as a class skill. Does this mean that I can't put points into it until I trained in it?
Hi Rannan,
A few thoughts on flying mounts in PFS;
Before you consider flying mounts ask yourself how to regain such mount since in PFS obtaining such mount is pretty hard unless gained from archetype of some sort. Best sure case that I saw is buying figurine of griffon for 10,000 gp although griffon won't scale with levels.
Note that gaining flying mounts is hard from balance wise reasons. They are pretty hard to counter with existing scenario's and scenario's aren't exactly made for flying mounted combat. It can make encounters too easy that way, but on the other hand, so can any highly optimized one trick pony.
Adam
The flying mount is really more for safety and flavor. A flying ranger is pretty hard to hit when you don't have any ranged attacks, and it just sounds awesome to be riding a griffon/hippogriff/eagle/hawk and raining death upon your enemies.
I didn't even think that it might make some scenarios or modules trivial, so I'll have to talk that over with my GM. I'm already concerned about my ranger being a little too strong because I can kill things before melee even get up to them, which means it is less fun for them. I expressed my concern and the group didn't seem to mind, but I'd imagine after several weeks of this it'd get pretty old.
As for gaining the mount, I saw that a few flying mounts can be purchased, and I just figured Absolam is large enough where there is likely to be an exotic animal seller. Again, something I should likely check with my GM and see how he wants to handle this.
Already I'm seeing that PFS has the option for flying mounts, but it is generally better to not have one for the sake of the game and for the GM's sanity. I don't want to trivialize or break the game, I just like the thought of swooping around on a flying mount while raining death safely from above.
I suppose this means that the horse is probably the best option for the group/game/GM if I am going to be doing mounted archery.
Rannan wrote: As a ranger, I also don't have fly as a class skill. Does this mean that I can't put points into it until I trained in it? Whether or not a skill is a class skill has no bearing on your ability to put ranks into it; the only thing it matters for is if you get the +3 bonus you get to your trained class skills (that is, class skills that you have at least one rank in).
That said, Fly is a special exception: you are not allowed to put ranks into it until you have some way to fly or glide on your own at least once per day; this means that typically characters cannot put ranks in it until they get a spell or class feature that allows them to fly, such as the fly spell or the alchemist's wings discovery.
However, in the case of a flying mount, YOU don't have to make the Fly check; your mount does, so YOUR ranks in the skill are irrelevant.
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
Make sure you read up on the mounted combat rules: http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/combat.html#mounted-combat
That should help answer several of your questions and possibly future questions you might have.
You seem to be making the assumption that you need several skills and feats that are actually skills and feats that your animal companion would need.
You wouldn't need the Fly skill, your mount would. You wouldn't need the Hover feat, your mount would. Although you don't need the hover feat to hover, without the feat the hovering creature needs to make a DC 15 fly check and it doesn't create a cloud of debris.
Also, you and your mount act on the same initiative. You decide what type of actions you and your mount will take and make the appropriate skill checks and take the appropriate penalties all as a single turn.
Flying isn't a special type of action. If a creature with a fly speed wants to fly it uses a move action to move up to its fly speed, or two move actions to move double its fly speed or a full round action to "run" quadruple its fly speed. The only restriction is that certain types of movement require fly checks, see the fly skill for more information.
For tight indoor environments you can pick up the hostling armor enchant if you have Ultimate Equipment. With it a medium sized character can store his large animal companion in a suit of heavy armor or a tower shield.
Also note that the Hover feat is banned for use by PCs and their pets. All feats in the bestiary are not legal options, per the additional resources, unless another book grants access to take them.
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
Your go-to books here are going to be Inner Sea Combat and Animal Archive. ISC has the monstrous mount feat for your gryphon or hippogryph, and improved monstrous mount to be able to fly while riding your mount at half its fly speed. AA has a number of options for animal companions including feats like narrow frame, which helps alleviate the squeezing problem in dungeons, an expanded array of tricks you can teach your companion, and Animal companion archetypes that really expand your array of options. A racing gryphon could end up being a very funny but effective companion.
Just make sure that when you sit down at the table with esoteric options like this that you're very familiar with the rules. You want to be courteous to your GM and fellow players. Read up on mounted combat,mounted archery penalties, the ride skill, handle animal, tricks, and the fly skill. Know when you need to make ride, fly,and handle animal checks, and what sort of turns, climbs, and dives your companion can execute while flying. If you can do all that, it should be a smooth experience for everyone.
@Rannan
You don't have to drop the idea of gaining flying mount entirely. The problems are mostly on early levels. If you plan to obtain mount after level 8 for example, I am sure there will be plenty of enemies to have fun with.
Regarding purchasing mounts, it's viable option, but exotic mounts require exotic books to own. A reason why I gave up on my mounted character. You have to own Beastiary's for each animal or Animal Archive, whichever brings up animal that you have. A second problem in gaining a flying mount.
Adam
+1 also what zefig said.
Learn the rules for mounted combat. I can't count any player that uses mounts in my community that knows those rules.
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
CathalFM wrote: One thing to note, is that in Pathfinder as opposed to previous versions of DnD, is that large is a standard 2x2. There is no 1x2 large or 1x3 etc, everything is abstracted so they use a square area (2x2).
Large creatures can squeeze through areas with a width of 1, but they take squeeze penalties (unless they have the Narrow Frame feat).
Historical note: non-square sizes were last used in 3.0, and were entirely eliminated in 3.5, meaning they were out of the game LONG before Pathfinder.
The last remaining rules that differentiate between creatures that used to have 2x1 spaces is the difference in reach, which is still in Pathfinder, as evidenced by table 8-4, "Creature Size and Scale", which differentiates between "Large (long)", which have a 5ft reach and would have had a 2x1 base in 3.0, and "Large (tall)", which have a 10ft reach and had a 2x2 base in 3.0.
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
So based on what you guys have told me, a flying mount with +15 to flying (I know it doesn't start there, but it won't be difficult to get it up to that point) can hover without the hover feat so I don't need to invest in that, mostly because I don't want the debris debuff because it'll effect other PC. Can I decide if I want to use the debris debuff or is it an all or nothing kind of thing?
I can possibly purchase a flying mount in a city depending on what it is. But, being a vanilla ranger, is it a better option to multiclass to unlock more AnCo/mounts or to pick up Monstrous Mount?
I'm thinking a griffon with Narrow Frame and Monstrous Mount Mastery will actually be pretty useful, and I can just ride it in a dungeon even if I can't fly. Still the benefits of a horse in a dungeon with those feats, and in the open I can fly. If it's in the city, I'll have to ask if they are allowed or not. If not, I suppose I can just have him fly around the outside or something and hope the GM doesn't have the guards attack him or anything. Nothing stopping him I suppose.
I think the earliest I would be able to fly on my mount would be level 7, where a Griffon would be able to pick up the Monstrous Mount Mastery feat and any other flying creature (dire bat, roc) will be size Large now and I can ride them then. A horse, however, I can ride at level 4. So maybe I'll pick up a horse at level 4 and pick up a Griffon at level 8. I'm picking up Boon Companion, so at level 8 my AnCo/Mount will be level 7. I'd lose some archery feats to make it work, but it makes sense I'd have to give a little for flavor and safety.
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
One note about the roc/bat/etc--you have to watch out for weight limits. Anything over a light load/encumbrance will prevent flight.
As a note on multiclassing to open up your list, the levels only stack for companions that are on both lists.
As for what to do with your mount during adventures where it isn't viable to bring it, check out the squire vanity from the Pathfinder Society Field Guide. Your squire can take care of all your mount's feeding and lodging without you having to worry about it.
If you take the Sable Company Marine archetype from Inner Sea Combat, you can get a hippogriff at 2nd level, but it still won't carry a rider until 6th level and you give up your first two combat style feats. You can still ride it when it's not flying, though, so that'll get you a monstrous mount quicker than just taking the feat.
Plerumque wrote: If you take the Sable Company Marine archetype from Inner Sea Combat, you can get a hippogriff at 2nd level, but it still won't carry a rider until 6th level and you give up your first two combat style feats. You can still ride it when it's not flying, though, so that'll get you a monstrous mount quicker than just taking the feat. Unfortunately that is a ranger archetype, and I'm already past level 1, so that is not an option. I wish I had seen it before I made my ranger, but that's alright.
I'm still trying to decide if a flying mount is really worth it. By level 8 I can have +20 in both Ride and Handle Animal, so that is nice, but I would have to take Skill Focus twice to do it and that means less archery feats. I may have to multiclass to Fighter to make this work if I really want to.
If I do multiclass to fighter (for the extra feats), and have Boon Companion, will my mount be 1 level under my total level, or 1 level below my ranger level?
EDIT: Well actually I could retrain. I have enough gold for it. The more I'm looking at it, the more raw damage I'm giving up simply to fly. I'm beginning to think flying isn't that worth it. Going by Lastoth's Archery Guide, you can be a beast by just standing close to combat with all of the AoO's you can take, the +1 to hit from being mounted, and the 15' threat range. Sounds REALLY good. I'd have to give up at least 2 feats from that build in order to have +20 in both Ride and Handle Animal by level 8. If I didn't take that, my Handle Animal would be +9 at level 8 and my Ride would be +14. Not exactly ideal.
Flying would be nice, but it's really going to be limited. I can't fly in a dungeon, so a horse is better there because I don't need any extra feats to ride a horse, flying isn't going to be an option all that much to give up so much damage and opportunities, and I can't use a flying mount in a city without a lot of attention being drawn. Another PC suggested using a magical item to have my character fly, which isn't a bad option if I'm dead set on flying.
SCPRedMage wrote: Rannan wrote: As a ranger, I also don't have fly as a class skill. Does this mean that I can't put points into it until I trained in it? Whether or not a skill is a class skill has no bearing on your ability to put ranks into it; the only thing it matters for is if you get the +3 bonus you get to your trained class skills (that is, class skills that you have at least one rank in).
That said, Fly is a special exception: you are not allowed to put ranks into it until you have some way to fly or glide on your own at least once per day; this means that typically characters cannot put ranks in it until they get a spell or class feature that allows them to fly, such as the fly spell or the alchemist's wings discovery.
However, in the case of a flying mount, YOU don't have to make the Fly check; your mount does, so YOUR ranks in the skill are irrelevant. Ride checks on the other hand are VERY relevant.
Rannan wrote: Plerumque wrote: If you take the Sable Company Marine archetype from Inner Sea Combat, you can get a hippogriff at 2nd level, but it still won't carry a rider until 6th level and you give up your first two combat style feats. You can still ride it when it's not flying, though, so that'll get you a monstrous mount quicker than just taking the feat. Unfortunately that is a ranger archetype, and I'm already past level 1, so that is not an option. I wish I had seen it before I made my ranger, but that's alright.
I'm still trying to decide if a flying mount is really worth it. By level 8 I can have +20 in both Ride and Handle Animal, so that is nice, but I would have to take Skill Focus twice to do it and that means less archery feats. I may have to multiclass to Fighter to make this work if I really want to.
Or just NOT take the skill focus feats. Your numbers will still be good enough most of the time.
Idk man. My Handle animal will be +13, including my +4 bonus for being a ranger, at level 8. The more I see how much I will have to give up for a flying mount, the less reasonable it seems.
Rannan wrote: Idk man. My Handle animal will be +13, including my +4 bonus for being a ranger, at level 8. The more I see how much I will have to give up for a flying mount, the less reasonable it seems. You only need +11 to have no chance of ever failing to get an animal to do something it is trained for. Yes, you'll have trouble pushing it to do something it isn't trained for, but you'll generally want to avoid that in combat anyway.
Well that's actually doable then without losing feats. The next question is what feat do I give up using Lastoths optimized archer ranger build? I'll have to give something up for either Boon Companion and/or Monstrous Mount. I'm trying to stick to that as it seems awesome. I would think combat reflexes and snapshot would be okay to drop if I am going to be flying, but I figure I'll be grounded a good portion of the time where those will come in handy. Any suggestions?
And I can just any flying mount on the ground in places like dungeons right? I'll just ride them and have them use their ground speed. And if the ceiling is high enough I can take off a little. How far off the ground do I have to be on order to avoid my allies giving enemies soft cover?
@Rannan
If skills are causing you problems, don't forget that you can buy magical items. For 4k - 5k gold pieces there is usually one that boosts specific skill for around +5.
Malag
Just use a giant praying mantis - increase its INT score and you're set.
I'll also recommend narrow frame for tight dungeons and such.
LazarX wrote: Ride checks on the other hand are VERY relevant. Aye, but Ride checks are the same regardless of movement modes.
The other concern I'm having is that I am a vanilla Ranger. I'm not sure if I can choose some of these AnCo without multiclassing or retraining to Beast Master. Although if I have to take a dip in Druid, I can get way better mounts and animal companions. But if I take a dip, I'll have to keep leveling my druid portion to keep my pet level up unless the pet is on both sets. Are there any other animals like the Mantis that can fly and walk decently? That seems ideal. I can fly when the option is available and still use him in a dungeon with Narrow Frame.
I found this site which seems super helpful, but I'm still having trouble figuring out what animals are available to my ranger. I'm okay to buy books, I just can't find a definite website that says "These are all the AnCo's a vanilla ranger can have, here are the books." Most of the sites talk about a Beast Master ranger and that doesn't help me because I'm just a plain vanilla ranger. The Paizo site lists a small number, but I've read that they've since been expanded but haven't found anything definite around the web so I'm unsure.
If I am limited to that small choice, I suppose the question comes down to wolf, cat, or horse.
There are no flying mounts available to a standard ranger, short of feats or GM grace. Keep in mind also that most dungeon fights are going to be tight affairs, not leaving you spaces to fly around in especially with a creature as big as a giant mantis.
The animals listed in the core rule book/on the PRD under the hunter's bond ability are the only ones that a ranger can select in PFS without an archetype or feat that grants access to others.
So as a vanilla ranger my flying dreams aren't viable without feats, and I'm limited to those companions. Is there any way for me to get a lion or other cat with rake that will be equal to my ranger level with boon companion?
|
