Heya.
I'm a bit new to this and have been running through character concepts in my head for some pfs games (I haven't played a pfs game before.)
I would really like to make an elven paladin, but I'm not having a lot of luck. Here is what I have so far.. He's some sort of paladin switch hit thingy.
Str 14
Dex 16
Con 12
Int 10
Wis 10
Cha 15
(Level Ups in Cha)
1 Fey Foundling
3 Power Attack
5 Deadly Aim
7 Quick Draw
9 Improved Critical (Elven Curve Blade)
11 Critical Focus
As you can see he takes forever to get rolling. Waiting until Level 3 for power attack really hurts. It wouldn't be so bad but fey foundling is nice because 1) It's awesome and 2) the fluff is really neat for a forlorn elf.
Anyone out there got some advice on this? I think If I go into a pfs game doing 1D10+3 damage at +3 to hit I might get laughed off the table. Well, At least I could take power attack for 1 and switch it for fey foundling at 2 then I would only be really bad for a level? I don't know.
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Well you're +3 to hit normally. +5 to hit with a flank or smite, +6 with smite/flank and a bless or bard song.
Flanking, smiting and under a buff you're at +8. Not horrible for level 1. Team work is the best buff you can get.
I'd suggest going more archer but without precise shot you might be better off putting down the bow unless dealing with something flying that you can't engage any other way and boosting your strength.
Sprinkling in a few levels of fighter or ranger would help you out quite a bit. What paladin class abilities are you looking to get the most use out of?
14 Str is not enough if you primarily want to melee and switch hitting is primarily melee.
Personally I think this character is better suited for a composite longbow, given the Strength and Dexterity scores.
I also think that an elf doesn't make a great Paladin given that they don't get any bonuses to Strength and Charisma from the elven race. You can look through the Advanced Race Guide to see if you can find races like Suli which DO grant bonuses to those two stats. There's also in the aasimar book (Blood of Angels)an aasimar variant that does the same thing; one of my players did this.
If you do go for a longbow, make sure to take Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot as soon as possible, because otherwise you take that pesky -4 penalty to hit if one of your comrades is in melee combat with your target.
Thanks for the advice all. My goal is to be a melee oriented character, with an elven curve blade. The Divine hunter is neat, but it gives up things I like.
Switch hitting is optional. I just like how with smite and deadly aim I can suck less against fliers. Quick draw is probably useless and could be something else.
To be honest, I just want to be this guy. >_<; I'm not going for that much optimization, just trying to not be useless.
Point buy hurts. It seems like the most I can get out of strength without dumping everything is 16. 16/14/12/10/10/14, or maybe 16/12/12/10/10/15.
Oath of Vengeance is looking nice, I kinda want to take warrior of the holy light too. Any experience there?
edit: I guess fey foundling can go, power attack early seems needed. Even with 14 strength I can power attack for 1d10+6..
Well i can toss in my character as a compairson.
I currently play a Oracle tho, but i have taken up a few buffs that will help me out on the "to-hit" department, and i am actually a Melee with ranged oppertunities:
My main buffs then is "Divine Favor" for melee, "Bless" for general party buff and myself, and then "Channel Vigor" in case of range.
Maybe you should look into some paladin spells that boost your to-hit aswell?
Added: as a lvl 1 you wont have too many of these options, but getting a masterwork weapon adds +1 to-hit, and later on get potions of Bull's Strenght will add to your later options and could easily be picked up at level 2 if your GM doesnt screw you over in the gold department.
Actually, you will find you get much more mileage out of Weapon Focus than you will out of Power Attack, which is why most players I know take the latter before the former.
Odd numbered stats are really useful in the point buy system, because they cost less and you can add a +1 to one of your attributes every 4 levels...
Quick Draw is really only useful if you switch weapons a lot in a fight.
Divine hunter is only good as a 2 level dip, you just give up too much otherwise. Straight paladin or oath of vengeance is better.
I think your feats are perfectly fine but I'd start with higher strength and 8 wis. You don't need power attack at level 1-2 anyway if you have 16+ str and a two hand weapon.
Divine hunter is only good as a 2 level dip, you just give up too much otherwise.
How do you 'dip' an archetype?
Divine hunter is only good as a 2 level dip, you just give up too much otherwise.How do you 'dip' an archetype?
Gilfalas has a point there. It states in the description of the archetypes that you can't just take a dip into it, and that you can't just pick and choose what features you want and want to give up.
Divine hunter is only good as a 2 level dip, you just give up too much otherwise.How do you 'dip' an archetype?
The same way you dip into any class: You grab a level or two of it, then pick a different class.
Elven Paladin (Oath of Vengeance)
Str 16
Dex 14
Con 12
Int 10
Wis 8
Cha 15
1 Fey Foundling
3 Power Attack
5 Deadly Aim
7 Extra Lay on Hands or whatever
9 Improved Critical (Elven Curve Blade)
11 Critical Focus
At level one +4 to hit at 1d10+4 with Curve Blade.. Should be enough? I'll probably be using a longsword for my first adventure anyway - wait to get a masterwork curve blade.
Really looking at Warrior of the Holy Light. It has synergy with Vengeance, and it's fluffy as heck for an elven paladin of Sarenrae. Someone tell me giving up all my spells is crazy?
It has synergy with Vengeance, and it's fluffy as heck for an elven paladin of Sarenrae. Someone tell me giving up all my spells is crazy?
You do miss out on a few key spells tho, like Divine Favor early on.
Maybe the Cure light wounds if you want to save cash."Hero's Defiance" which let you use lay on hands on yourself as you fall unconscious.
"Knight's Calling" the closest thing to a MMORPG "taunt"
And these are just 1st level spells.
Also, i would have kept the caster levels as it lets you use wands of cure light wounds and similar spells that is on your spell-list.
Again, you would get more out of Weapon Focus than you will out of Power Attack. Dealing damage isn't the problem, hitting is.
The same way you dip into any class: You grab a level or two of it, then pick a different class.
Point being it seemed an odd answer to a player who specifically said he wanted to play a Paladin, not a multi-classed Paladin.
Myself if I was going to bother using an Elf and an Elven Curved Blade I would just finesse it with two-handed power attack and get an Agile weapon or settle for a base 14 strength; the damage output doesn't really suffer too badly on a Paladin and everything else would roll out a lot smoother with high dex.
I also like Oath against Savages with dexterity for the fact that with combat reflexes it can be used to go reach-AoO berserk when the mood takes you (or you don't have any evil to spend smite on anyways), and eventually you could be using Haste on your party with your uberinitiative if you were so inclined. Just a couple thoughts for going more with the grain on an elf.
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Elven Paladin (Oath of Vengeance)
Str 16
Dex 14
Con 12
Int 10
Wis 8
Cha 151 Fey Foundling
3 Power Attack
5 Deadly Aim
7 Extra Lay on Hands or whatever
9 Improved Critical (Elven Curve Blade)
11 Critical FocusAt level one +4 to hit at 1d10+4 with Curve Blade.. Should be enough? I'll probably be using a longsword for my first adventure anyway - wait to get a masterwork curve blade.
Really looking at Warrior of the Holy Light. It has synergy with Vengeance, and it's fluffy as heck for an elven paladin of Sarenrae. Someone tell me giving up all my spells is crazy?
That looks solid enough, though personally, I'd drop Wis to 7 for Int 12. That lets you actually have some skills and costs little enough. I probably wouldn't ditch spellcasting, but it's a valid choice if your GM allows it (I think it's technically, RAW, illegal, given that both WotHL and Oath of Vengeance effect spellcasting).
Recommendation:
Elven Paladin (Oath of Vengeance)
Str 17
Dex 13 (or Con 13 instead, it really only matters at level 12)
Con 12
Int 10
Wis 7
Cha 15
1 Fey Foundling
3 Weapon Focus (Elven Court Blade)
5 Power Attack
7 Extra Lay-On Hands or Furious Focus
9 Furious Focus or Extra Lay-One Hands (whichever you didn't take at 7)
11 Critical Focus
Why no Improved Critical? For one thing, there are many ways to make your weapon keen, for another, furious focus will mean +2 or +3 to hit, making your weapon keen only costs you a +1 enhancement bonus. You do lose out on a +1 to hit on your iteratives, but those are circumstantial. Finally, you will probably use divine bond to bond with your weapon, fruther mitigating the issue.
Extra Lay-on Hands means a lot more staying power and it synergizes well with Fey Foundling.
As has been mentioned before, you will get more out of Weapon Focus than out of Power Attack early on. You are behind in to-hit compared to BSFs with an optimized race and using Power Attack will make it worse. But if you really feel that you want Power Attack early, just switch it around.
Pick Hit Points for your favoured class bonus, despite Lay-On Hands, with only a 12 Con, you will be on the fragile side. Put your level up points either into Str, Cha, Dex (or Con).
Since your Con isn't great, I would highly recommend the Greater Mercy feat to improve your Lay on Hands ability.
Half Elf might work better for you. You can still get the LoH favored class bonus, you are still proficient in the Elven Curve Blade, and your stats will be better. Paladins don't need the Int as much as they need the Con, and you can put your racial bonus in Str, Dex, or Cha as needed.
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Just two points:
First, the if you have ultimate equipment, the nodachi is superior to Elven Curve blade. It's the same stats plus the option to brace against a charge and/or deal piercing damage. The drawback is that it is not necessarily elven.
Second, I will never hold you playing what you want at a PFS event against you. :)
One feat that could be add: Endurance. Whit your high DEX, you will probably wear medium armor and beiing able to sleep in your armor is a huge advantage. No more ''fighting without armor during the night!
if you're looking for a curved sword wiedling machine, look at the sword scion trait (campaign, kingmaker--ask your GM) and grab an (aldori) dueling sword.
it's also finesseable and uses its own stats if you grab EWP with it, otherwise you can wield it normally as if it were a longsword without the feat--the free +1 (trait) to attacks/combat maneuvers with it is also a nice bonus!
Sword Scion is not legal in PFS unless there is another source other than the Kingmaker's Player's Guide.
I believe none of the adventure path campaign traits are legal for PFS.
ah, my mistake then.
Thank you everyone for your great advice. I wasn't expecting this much input. I am still playing around with it, I think KutuluKultist probably has the best an elven strength paladin can be. It took me awhile to figure out that paladins had a high will save on top of the divine grace, so there really is no reason to not drop wis to 7.
I am still playing around with the builds, being a dex paladin still has it's appeal. Maybe give up fey foundling all together. Starting to resent it for being so good.
Str 14
Dex 17
Con 13
Int 10
Wis 7
Cha 15
1 Fey Foundling / Weapon Finesse
3 Weapon Finesse / Weapon Focus if no Fey Foundling
4 +1 Dex
5 Power Attack
7 Furious Focus
8 +1 Cha
9 Weapon Focus: elven curve blade / Deadly Aim / Extra Lay on Hands / Critical Focus
11 Take your pick
12 +1 Con
Probably mix up the feats however you want. Can run around in a mithral breastplate for more mobility, much better at archery. Less damage, slower feat growth.
Thinking about what athaleon posted, half elf is straight up better for these than an elf. Only half as cool though.
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Thank you everyone for your great advice. I wasn't expecting this much input. I am still playing around with it, I think KutuluKultist probably has the best an elven strength paladin can be. It took me awhile to figure out that paladins had a high will save on top of the divine grace, so there really is no reason to not drop wis to 7. I am still playing around with the builds, being a dex paladin still has it's appeal. Maybe give up fey foundling all together. Starting to resent it for being so good.Keep it, and you'll be thanking yourself every time you LoH your scrawny low-CON elf body. Speaking of which....
Str 14
Dex 17
Con 13
Int 10
Wis 7
Cha 15
Four odd stats at creation... <sucking teeth>
...instead try:STR:10
DEX+18
CON-12 elf 20pt
INT+14
WIS:07
CHA:15 (all bumps)
racial archetypes: Spirit of the Water
01: pala1 Fey Foundling
02: rogu1 SA+1d6
03: pala2 [divine grace] Greater Mercy
04: rogu2 [evasion][finesse rogue], CHA>16
05: pala3 Piranha Strike
06: pala4
07: pala5 [weapon bond], Extra Lay on Hands
08: pala6
09: pala7 Ultimate Mercy
...this build is more or less along the lines of a halfling rogue/paladin multiclass, and gives the elf something to do with his intelligence bonus and general "racial reputation" for not being a total idiot. The CON penalty is rendered moot by massive LoH ability. Damage output is tepid prior to 5th (and especially the acquisition of an Agile shortsword), but we can amuse ourselves throwing nets over bad guys with about a +7 attack bonus over the average DEX 12 pally without proficiency -- which works just as well to end low-level combats as physically chopping heads off.
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Four odd stats at creation... <sucking teeth>
Hey, odd stats can be great if pretty much everything is dex anyhow and you're just angling for prerequisites. I know people generally dismiss weapon stats, but an Elven Curved Blade two-handed power attack has 5 more damage at level 8 than a piranha strike short sword, and a better crit as well. Plus - subjectively - its a whole lot cooler.
Also, with a 13 in intelligence and maybe a few pearls of power, Unsanctioned Knowledge could get you things like Mirror Image for the boss fight and Heroism to make up for four charisma points of saves while beefing up your attack. I dunno if its optimized, but it sure feels like an Elven Paladin.
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....an Elven Curved Blade two-handed power attack has 5 more damage at level 8 than a piranha strike short sword, and a better crit as well. Plus - subjectively - its a whole lot cooler.
Having +5 AC from a spiffy magic shield is the "boring" part of the exchange we happily accept for not using a two-hander circa 8th.
...or subbing a feat or two for TWF to juice that nice pally Smite level bonus to damage to several extra attacks -- this is where those I-TWF halfling "chaladins" become quite terrifying once their raw theoretical smite bonus damage/round exceeds 50pts, not counting crits: anything evil within 5' range just explodes into pink mist on their turn. When you're meeting or exceeding +25 in numeric bonuses at 11th on a smite, weapon dice aren't really that important. Any swizzle stick will do.
Also, with a 13 in intelligence and maybe a few pearls of power, Unsanctioned Knowledge could get you things like Mirror Image for the boss fight and Heroism to make up for four charisma points of saves while beefing up your attack. I dunno if its optimized, but it sure feels like an Elven Paladin.
A high-level dip multiclass will get way more mileage out of Use Magic Device and a satchel of scrolls and cheap wands than the straight-class with Unsanctioned Knowledge.
I probably wouldn't switch-hit with a paladin. Switch hitters require a big bunch of feats to work properly, which is why you build them with fighters or rangers who get excess feats. Paladins are extremely feat hungry and don't make good switch hitters for this reason.
Better to focus entirely on THDing your elven curve blade and keeping dex low.
Have you considered pala/sorc/DD? It would give you the stat bonuses you need, and you could refluff the DD bonuses as 'ancestral elven magic' easily enough.
The only feat a switch-hitter needs is Quick Draw.
Pretty much. Paladins don't really need a whole lot of feats to be awesome, but power attack and deadly aim by level 5-7 is a good idea IMO.
The only feat a switch-hitter needs is Quick Draw.
Power attack, deadly aim, quickdraw, PBS, rapid shot, precise shot, many shot, improved critical, weapon focus...
I mean sure, you can live without them.... but then you're not exactly a switch hitter, you're a dude who uses a bow and a sword, and neither particularly well.
Or you could just focus on, say, archery and for the cost of one feat (stabbing shot) have absolutely no need to switch hit at all?
At low levels you can get away with just dropping your bow and drawing the sword as part of move action. Beyond that you can be an Archer full time.
The only feat a switch-hitter needs is Quick Draw.Power attack, deadly aim, quickdraw, PBS, rapid shot, precise shot, many shot, improved critical, weapon focus...
I mean sure, you can live without them.... but then you're not exactly a switch hitter, you're a dude who uses a bow and a sword, and neither particularly well.
Or you could just focus on, say, archery and for the cost of one feat (stabbing shot) have absolutely no need to switch hit at all?
A smiting paladin with access to divine bond still makes a pretty good archer without any feats. A smiting paladin with all the archery feats is overkill in most normal campaigns. Instead I'd rather spend the limited feats paladins do get on boosting the best things about paladins, i.e. lay on hands (converted into smites as needed by oath of vengeance).
Are you determined to go with elf? Or have you considered half-elf?
Half-elf will make your Ability Score issues go a bit easier. you can use Ancestral Arms to get proficiency in Curve Blade.
With a half-elf, this stat array is possible:
Str 16 (+2 racial)
Dex 14
Con 12
Int 10
Wis 8
Cha 16
Which is slightly better than what you had as a pure elf.
Peet
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Paladins pretty much have three jobs:
1) be the one guy who doesn't piss off the royalty hiring the PCs.
2) kill evil things easily.
3) bravely stand in front and absorb an ass-ton of damage.
-- You don't need any feats to do those roles, so they're more or less all just gravy. Therefore, the best ones are those which you'll use constantly, or which grant the ability to do things you normally couldn't.
It's hard to imagine what feats will possibly be used more often by a paladin than Fey Foundling and Greater Mercy, which together make LoH over twice as powerful at 3rd level (average of 14.5 healing versus 7, equivalent to CMW from a 6th-level cleric).
..... Therefore, the best ones are those which you'll use constantly, or which grant the ability to do things you normally couldn't.
It's hard to imagine what feats will possibly be used more often by a paladin than Fey Foundling and Greater Mercy, which together make LoH over twice as powerful at 3rd level (average of 14.5 healing versus 7, equivalent to CMW from a 6th-level cleric).
While I don't think the math is right here (I get 3.5 - i.e. 1d6 - average healing without either feat and 11 average - i.e. 2d6+4 - with both of those feats - am I doing something wrong? Thugsalot, your numbers look like a 4th level paladin to me) This is a very good view of things. I hate to put off taking power attack but the two-feat combo basically triples the self-healing you can do at 3rd level.
This compensates for not using a shield if you are two-handing it.
Remember also that the elven favoured class bonus grants a bonus to your lay on hands. Maybe it's overkill, I'm not sure. But even as a half-elf you can use it.
Peet
You're correct that a Paladin with Fey Foundling + Greater Mercy at level 3 will self heal on average for 11 hp. At level 4 that Paladin will self heal on average for 16.5 hp.
Regarding power attack, if you have high strength you can 1 or 2 shot most foes at level 1-2 without it. The only net effect from power attack at low level is to make you miss more. Later on it becomes a must have.
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With a d10 polearm, you'll one-shot most Tier-2 foes without being particularly strong. The typical mook has 7 or 8hp, and a STR:14 PC with aforementioned polearm averages 8.5.
In these cases, a neat trick is to, if you win init, not just move & attack, but instead move to 15' away and declare a ready to attack when the enemy enters any threatened square -- if they do (*whack!*) and then they leave that threatened square to move adjacent, you also get the AoO you wouldn't receive if they started 10' away and five-footed. *Whack*! ...This gives you TWO shots at the guy before he gets his first on you, giving you quite good odds of dropping him with the above "not strong" fighter even with only a 50% chance of connecting.
Contrast to the same fighter charging and Power Attacking. If he hits, he more than likely gets his man with an average of 11.5 damage. But if he whiffs, he's now AC-2 and potentially taking several inbounds. Then take a typical new player with "DPR myopia" who went with a greatsword barbarian from 1st, he'll grossly overkill any target by averaging 16 while Power Attacking with STR18. But said barbarian better hit if he's going to stand on the front line in PFS with a relative AC-4 differential to the non-raging fighter with a polearm who didn't charge.
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I have seen barbarians die more than any other class in PFS play. Caveat Emptor.