If my magus crits someone with spellstrike, it is understood that the rider spell does double damage, but what about the rider effect from him wielding a spell storing weapon. Is that effect doubled as well?
Take a magus who is spellstriking with two intensified shocking grasps for example.
How is he spellstriking with 2 shocking grasp?
But to answer the question the spell damage should also be multiplied.
How is he spellstriking with 2 shocking grasp?
But to answer the question the spell damage should also be multiplied.
He's double tapping with Shocking Grasp by using a weapon enchanted with Spell Storing. Before the fight store a shocking grasp into the blade. Then during combat Spellstrike with a Shocking Grasp and then unleash the charge on weapon.
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Disagree. Spell storing weapons cast their spell as a free action after the hit; they are not part of the critical.
Another vote for "not crit."
I also agree; the Spell Storing is an additional effect that happens after the roll. It essentially requires no attack roll itself, so it cannot crit.
Good point. Sorry RD. You only get one spell as a crit.
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A spell cast from a Spell Storing weapon is really no different from any other spell (except for being a free action.) Naturally, it can crit just like any other spell provided it has an attack roll and you threaten and confirm on the attack roll.
EDIT:
I also agree; the Spell Storing is an additional effect that happens after the roll. It essentially requires no attack roll itself, so it cannot crit.
I see what's going on. OK, this is wrong.
Spell Storing: A spell storing weapon allows a spellcaster to store a single targeted spell of up to 3rd level in the weapon. (The spell must have a casting time of 1 standard action.) Anytime the weapon strikes a creature and the creature takes damage from it, the weapon can immediately cast the spell on that creature as a free action if the wielder desires. (This special ability is an exception to the general rule that casting a spell from an item takes at least as long as casting that spell normally.) Once the spell has been cast from the weapon, a spellcaster can cast any other targeted spell of up to 3rd level into it. The weapon magically imparts to the wielder the name of the spell currently stored within it. A randomly rolled spell storing weapon has a 50% chance to have a spell stored in it already.
Basically, you roll to hit with the weapon. Hit, Crit, whatever, the weapon deals damage as normal. If you're Spellstriking, you Spellstrike as normal.
If the weapon hits and does damage, then you cast the spell from the weapon as a free action. This works exactly like casting a spell from any other item. (CL of the item, min DC, etc.) If the spell needs an attack roll, you still have to make it just like any other item. Nothing in the ability description suggests otherwise.
If that attack roll crits, then the spell does double damage as usual.
I still read it as the the weapon hit bypassing the need to make a the spell's normal touch attack; the weapon casts the spell and it is already touching.
That aside, if using a Spell Storing weapon just means you cast the spell and then have to make an independent touch attack, then yeah, you could definitely crit like normal.
I see what's going on. OK, this is wrong.Basically, you roll to hit with the weapon. Hit, Crit, whatever, the weapon deals damage as normal. If you're Spellstriking, you Spellstrike as normal.
If the weapon hits and does damage, then you cast the spell from the weapon as a free action. This works exactly like casting a spell from any other item. (CL of the item, min DC, etc.) If the spell needs an attack roll, you still have to make it just like any other item. Nothing in the ability description suggests otherwise.
If that attack roll crits, then the spell does double damage as usual.
Whatever words you think the rules are missing in order to produce an outcome that makes sense, just assume that they are implied by the writing and context.
Getting into a debate over whether a spell storing weapon does something useful that makes sense, as everyone has assumed for the last 11 years, or it actually does something else because the description is insufficiently explicit, is just silly. And FAQ'ing is worse. One of these days, Paizo is just going to take that button away if you keep using it like that.
Funny thing is, spell storing weapons (and armor) actually need a FAQ, but for the question: "What is the caster level". For a 5th level magus with a shocking grasp stored, the answer could be 1, 5, or 12.
It has to be a target spell from what I understand. Does that rule out a lot of touch attack spells (which don't have target lines, or else have a target of "you")?
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A spell cast from a Spell Storing weapon is really no different from any other spell (except for being a free action.) Naturally, it can crit just like any other spell provided it has an attack roll and you threaten and confirm on the attack roll.
EDIT:
I also agree; the Spell Storing is an additional effect that happens after the roll. It essentially requires no attack roll itself, so it cannot crit.I see what's going on. OK, this is wrong.
Spell Storing: A spell storing weapon allows a spellcaster to store a single targeted spell of up to 3rd level in the weapon. (The spell must have a casting time of 1 standard action.) Anytime the weapon strikes a creature and the creature takes damage from it, the weapon can immediately cast the spell on that creature as a free action if the wielder desires. (This special ability is an exception to the general rule that casting a spell from an item takes at least as long as casting that spell normally.) Once the spell has been cast from the weapon, a spellcaster can cast any other targeted spell of up to 3rd level into it. The weapon magically imparts to the wielder the name of the spell currently stored within it. A randomly rolled spell storing weapon has a 50% chance to have a spell stored in it already.Basically, you roll to hit with the weapon. Hit, Crit, whatever, the weapon deals damage as normal. If you're Spellstriking, you Spellstrike as normal.
If the weapon hits and does damage, then you cast the spell from the weapon as a free action. This works exactly like casting a spell from any other item. (CL of the item, min DC, etc.) If the spell needs an attack roll, you still have to make it just like any other item. Nothing in the ability description suggests otherwise.
If that attack roll crits, then the spell does double damage as usual.
Well, sure. If the spell attack crits, then it is a crit. The spell isn't a crit just because the weapon itself crits.
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It has to be a target spell from what I understand. Does that rule out a lot of touch attack spells (which don't have target lines, or else have a target of "you")?
This is an interesting question. I think we can all agree that area spells like color spray or fireball is out. I believe that Rays are out, as they are listed under "Effect" rather than "Target" (Paizo PRD: Magic:Aiming a Spell). I'm inclined to believe that touch attack spells, such as chill touch, would fall under this as well. If that's the case, then those spells that specify that you must designate a creature as a target, such as command or hold person, are the only viable spells.
I don't have experience with spell storing weapons, so YMMV.
EDIT: if this is the case, then the whole issue of whether a spell crits is irrelevant.
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Funny thing is, spell storing weapons (and armor) actually need a FAQ, but for the question: "What is the caster level". For a 5th level magus with a shocking grasp stored, the answer could be 1, 5, or 12.
Well, the description for spell storing says that it is the weapon that is casting the spell, so anything regarding the Magus is irrelevant. According to the PRD:
The caster level of a weapon with a special ability is given in the item description. For an item with only an enhancement bonus and no other abilities, the caster level is three times the enhancement bonus. If an item has both an enhancement bonus and a special ability, the higher of the two caster level requirements must be met.
So, to me that reads that the spell would be cast at CL 12, unless it is a +5 weapon which would be CL 15.
Is there anything out there that suggests that the wielder is the one who dictates the CL?
I think the CL is based on the spell stored IN the weapon, nt the power of the weapon itself. If a 5th level caster stores a spell in the weapon, it is a CL5 spell stored in the weapon. Consider it a quick casting rewritable scroll that has a conditional auto-completion effect.. :-)
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I see what's going on. OK, this is wrong.Basically, you roll to hit with the weapon. Hit, Crit, whatever, the weapon deals damage as normal. If you're Spellstriking, you Spellstrike as normal.
If the weapon hits and does damage, then you cast the spell from the weapon as a free action. This works exactly like casting a spell from any other item. (CL of the item, min DC, etc.) If the spell needs an attack roll, you still have to make it just like any other item. Nothing in the ability description suggests otherwise.
If that attack roll crits, then the spell does double damage as usual.
Whatever words you think the rules are missing in order to produce an outcome that makes sense, just assume that they are implied by the writing and context.
Getting into a debate over whether a spell storing weapon does something useful that makes sense, as everyone has assumed for the last 11 years, or it actually does something else because the description is insufficiently explicit, is just silly. And FAQ'ing is worse. One of these days, Paizo is just going to take that button away if you keep using it like that.
Funny thing is, spell storing weapons (and armor) actually need a FAQ, but for the question: "What is the caster level". For a 5th level magus with a shocking grasp stored, the answer could be 1, 5, or 12.
I have always ruled that the CL is that of the caster that stored the spell in the weapon, but I ruled the same way for ring the of spell storing.
Recently I discovered this text in the description of the ring:Each spell has a caster level equal to the minimum level needed to cast that spell.
I think that a spell storing weapon will work the same way.
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It has to be a target spell from what I understand. Does that rule out a lot of touch attack spells (which don't have target lines, or else have a target of "you")?This is an interesting question. I think we can all agree that area spells like color spray or fireball is out. I believe that Rays are out, as they are listed under "Effect" rather than "Target" (Paizo PRD: Magic:Aiming a Spell). I'm inclined to believe that touch attack spells, such as chill touch, would fall under this as well. If that's the case, then those spells that specify that you must designate a creature as a target, such as command or hold person, are the only viable spells.
I don't have experience with spell storing weapons, so YMMV.
EDIT: if this is the case, then the whole issue of whether a spell crits is irrelevant.
Target or Targets: Some spells have a target or targets. You cast these spells on creatures or objects, as defined by the spell itself. You must be able to see or touch the target, and you must specifically choose that target. You do not have to select your target until you finish casting the spell.Shocking Grasp
Range touch
Target creature or object touchedChill Touch
Range touch
Targets creature or creatures touched (up to one/level)
I don't see why they shouldn't work, both are targeted spells.
The weapon doesn't have the minimum level clause, nor does it reference the ring.
I agree no critical - but it seems strange that you have to roll to hit after hitting with the weapon itself...
I have always ruled that the CL is that of the caster that stored the spell in the weapon, but I ruled the same way for ring the of spell storing.
Recently I discovered this text in the description of the ring:
Each spell has a caster level equal to the minimum level needed to cast that spell.I think that a spell storing weapon will work the same way.
That's not a bad way to do it. The only other way is to use the CL of the weapon, which has to be at least 12 for Spell Storing, but could be higher.
I think I like your way better.
I see what's going on. OK, this is wrong.Basically, you roll to hit with the weapon. Hit, Crit, whatever, the weapon deals damage as normal. If you're Spellstriking, you Spellstrike as normal.
If the weapon hits and does damage, then you cast the spell from the weapon as a free action. This works exactly like casting a spell from any other item. (CL of the item, min DC, etc.) If the spell needs an attack roll, you still have to make it just like any other item. Nothing in the ability description suggests otherwise.
If that attack roll crits, then the spell does double damage as usual.
Whatever words you think the rules are missing in order to produce an outcome that makes sense, just assume that they are implied by the writing and context.
Getting into a debate over whether a spell storing weapon does something useful that makes sense, as everyone has assumed for the last 11 years, or it actually does something else because the description is insufficiently explicit, is just silly.
Don't really want to get into a rules debate (OK that's a lie, I always want to get into a rules debate)... Ahem, Trying not to get into a rules debate, but Spell Storing works perfectly fine, is quite useful, and makes complete sense without reading anything into the text whatsoever. You get to cast a spell as a free action, that's pretty great! How does making that spell work like every other spell make it not useful or not make sense?
Just curious, how many people assumed/read into text that isn't there? I've always assumed it works the way it's written. I assume this of most rules. I would also assume most people do the same.
Hiting with a stored spell is not spellstriking. Spellstriking is when you are channeling a cast spell through your weapon touch. Your spellstrike spell crits with the weapon, your stored spell does not.
I lean toward this.
Where the critical is concerned, a spell storing weapon requires you to injure your target before the spell is cast. Ergo, this seems to be the order of events (to me, at least):
1. A successful attack roll is made, using the spell-storing weapon. The roll is within the weapon's critical range.
2. A critical is confirmed.
3. Damage is rolled. Because the hit was a critical, this damage is doubled (or tripled, etc., according to weapon type, feats, etc.).
4. Only then is the weapon-stored spell cast as a free action - since the target being injured is a prerequisite for the spell-storing weapon to kick in.
In short, the required injury and the subsequently-cast spell are two separate events. The latter of the two cannot benefit from the roll of the former.
I always assumed that since you are casting a spell (as a free action) when you hit with a spell storing weapon, you'd get another spellstrike. If that spellstrike crits, you crit with the spell, but the crit/hit before it (that you used to cast the stored spell) doesn't really matter.
I have to respectfully disagree:
At 2nd level, whenever a magus casts a spell with a range of “touch” from the magus spell list, he can deliver the spell through any weapon he is wielding as part of a melee attack. ...
Then, let's look at the FAQ entry for Spellstrike:
On a related topic, the magus touching his held weapon doesn’t count as “touching anything or anyone” when determining if he discharges the spell. A magus could even use the spellstrike ability, miss with his melee attack to deliver the spell, be disarmed by an opponent (or drop the weapon voluntarily, for whatever reason), and still be holding the charge in his hand, just like a normal spellcaster. Furthermore, the weaponless magus could pick up a weapon (even that same weapon) with that hand without automatically discharging the spell, and then attempt to use the weapon to deliver the spell. However, if the magus touches anything other than a weapon with that hand (such as retrieving a potion), that discharges the spell as normal.
Now granted, the same FAQ entry indicates that Spellstrike is about giving the magus "more options", but I think what is being proposed here goes beyond the intent of the abiity in question. Does the language allow for loopholes? Perhaps.
Here's my compromise House Rule suggestion: with the Wand Wielder Arcane, you should be allowed to use a spell-storing weapon like you would a wand or staff. And, assuming the stored spell has a range of "touch", you should be able to deliver it as part of a melee attack, via Spellstrike.
My personal judgment call is that the spell should auto-hit... but that it wouldn't be a critical.
And actually, having had another moment to re-think my earlier compromise solution... it doesn't really make sense, does it? Wand Wielder assumes that, as a full-round action, you can make all of your attacks with your melee weapon at a –2 penalty and can activate a wand or staff in place of casting a spell when using spell combat. Spellstrike assumes you've already cast a spell and you're delivering it as part of your melee attack. My solution entails not casting something, making one or more melee attacks, and only after one of them hits and injures the target would a spell be triggered.
At best, all my "compromise" accomplishes is letting you do what you can do already: spell combat grants you your full attacks (with a -2 penalty), plus a spell (or the use of a wand or a staff). In addition, your first successful melee attack would also trigger the spell stored in your weapon.
Sorry!
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Neither spellstoring not wand wielder allow you to use spellstrike.
The requirement is to use a spell from the magus spell list, but the FAQ has clearly explained that a spell from the magus spell list is a spell memorized in the magus spell slots, not a spell cast using a device.
Wand wielder allow you to use a wand in spell combat, it don't say anything about spell strike, so it don't change how spellstrike work or its limitations. Same thing for a spellstoring weapon (or ring or whatever).